Mr. X - Finalizing Cycle - Test/EQ - Suggestions needed. Esp w/ PCT.

[mm107]

Hey everyone.

Ive been looking into a good "mild" sided AAS stack. With the help of alot of good bro's i have come down to these selections.

I know alot of people on here have never actually used any AAS, so if you are one of those people who have not tried either of these compounds unless you really know alot on the subject please refrain from just throwing out numbers there.

Cycle History:
Cycled Superdrol/Pherplex 1 time. Thats about it. Gained 15lbs of LEAN mass and kept it all. Also jumped maxes as well, and kept MOST of the strength.

Diet History:
This cycle would be on my bulking time, so i would be eating 4,000 calories. If anyone knows me from the diet board, they know im all about dieiting, but i feel diet + AAS would be amazing. So i would be at 40%protein/30%carbs/30%fats. Im carb sensitive so thats why i gotta keep my carbs at 30%. 6 balanced meals a day.

Goodies (will be getting shortly)
Test E 250mg/ml
EQ @ 300mg/ml
AIFM
HCG
Nolva

Goodies needed? Not sure if needed, so im asking you's
Milk Thistle
grapeseed extract
Tylers Liver Detox

This is the cycle:
Test E: 250mg/week 1-15 (Injections: 125mg x 2)
EQ 50: 500mg/week 1-15 (Injections: 250mg x 2)
HCG: 500i.u./week 1-15 (Injections: 250i.u x 2)

PCT:
Nolvadex(Tamoxifen Citrate): 20mg daily/6 weeks right
3 Weeks After last inejction.

Im having trouble with my PCT. Is 20mg/day in the begingin of PCT suffice?


I know some protocol for HCG would go with it in the PCT. From the research i have done, it can also be used alongside AAS, to PREVENT atrophy completely while on cycle, only problem is EVERYONE is different. Some say run 250i.u/week while others say 1000i.u/week. Since the half life of HCG i belive is 64hours, 2 injections / week would keep my levels little more stable.

So basically i need help with:
PCT
Some optional goodies
(if i should bump up test dose, remmeber its my first real AAS)
Thanks ALL!

 

[SgtSlaughter]

good bro

lol... yah, you've got diet and training down pat bor!

more informed post down below

 

[Maxgain]

I took garlic coenzyme q 10 and fishoil and korean ginseng on test 500 cycle pct included did no cardio after 14 weeks + pct had best cholesterol ratio my doctor had ever seen total cholesterol 2.59 hdl in range ldl well below range triglyceride content .49 below range if its off any help

 

[mm107]

good bro

lol... yah, you've got diet and training down pat bor!

If I remember correctly:

HCG when used during a cycle is only for cosmetic (ball size) purposes due to all the external hormones you are "supplementing" your body with... waste of money... save for PCT.

- If I'm wrong, someone tell me... i'll edit the post even to prevent the spread of stupidity

AH SGT!
HMM, i will have to go research this one. If its cosmetic then ill def save it for PCT... Besides PCT is only 6 weeks not 15 plenty of $ saved lol.

Maxgains, thanks bro, i got them supplements on hand, hopefulyl my lipids dont go crazy, but hey ill have my EFA's to try to combat it as well

 

[Maxgain]

good bro

lol... yah, you've got diet and training down pat bor!

If I remember correctly:

HCG when used during a cycle is only for cosmetic (ball size) purposes due to all the external hormones you are "supplementing" your body with... waste of money... save for PCT.

- If I'm wrong, someone tell me... i'll edit the post even to prevent the spread of stupidity

Oh my God edit that now. If you wait you will cause serious atrophy of the testes and trust me their functionm is more than to swing nicely.
Next you have to regain full function of the testes in the 2-3 wks before you start pct. As you can NOT use it in pct it supresses HPTA.
Now you have to remember since you were clever enough to let your testes atrophitise it will now be a lot harder to kick start them requiring much longer pct at higher doses.
So what do most people do they take high doese 1000-5000 iu at once as for many thats what they need.
The brilliance of this is that a dose as little as 1500iu at once has been shown to desensitise the testes permanently so say hello to lifelong hrt and the impotence people warn you about whern starting steroids it is not a myth.

So having a proper libido function a better sense of well being a maintenance of function and decreasing the risk of not recovering properly and of course for cosmetic maybe a reason to use it throughout.
Why close the barn door after the horse has left?

 

[mm107]

Oh my God edit that now. If you wait you will cause serious atrophy of the testes and trust me their functionm is more than to swing nicely.
Next you have to regain full function of the testes in the 2-3 wks before you start pct. As you can NOT use it in pct it supresses HPTA.
Now you have to remember since you were clever enough to let your testes atrophitise it will now be a lot harder to kick start them requiring much longer pct at higher doses.
So what do most people do they take high doese 1000-5000 iu at once as for many thats what they need.
The brilliance of this is that a dose as little as 1500iu at once has been shown to desensitise the testes permanently so say hello to lifelong hrt and the impotence people warn you about whern starting steroids it is not a myth.

So having a proper libido function a better sense of well being a maintenance of function and decreasing the risk of not recovering properly and of course for cosmetic maybe a reason to use it throughout.
Why close the barn door after the horse has left?

Nice answer max!!!

So how much HCG per week do u recommend? for M/W/F

 

[Maxgain]

250iu m/w/f sc

 

[SgtSlaughter]

Searching binge... found this:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=495327

 

[mm107]

Sgt, this is a great post from the thread u showed me

By: ozz2001

C&P

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to
500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle.
This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more
sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to
have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big
fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both
therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase
activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells
of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is
permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary
(hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off
testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week
(as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn't mind
having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that
have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they
usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day.
Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to
appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce
testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly
rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack
of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or
Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid,
20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a
concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That
is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over
estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of
course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along
the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the
possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to
simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the
other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM's
at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was
enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of
AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures).
Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as
well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end
of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further
inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone
preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there
is no such thing as a 'bridge'. Just because you are not inhibiting
the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not
suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't fool the body - it is smarter
than you are.

Take it for what its worth...

 

[Maxgain]

Exactly my apologies I meant to say every 3 days not 3x a week talk about hyprocritical not teaching what you practise.
Go 250iu e 3 days

advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to
500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle.
This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more
sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to
have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big
fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both
therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase
activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells
of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is
permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary
(hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn't enough to stave off
testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week
(as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn't mind
having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that
have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they
usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day.
Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to
appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce
testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly
rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack
of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or
Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid,
20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a
concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That
is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over
estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of
course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along
the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the
possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to
simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the
other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM's
at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was
enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of
AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures).
Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as
well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end
of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further
inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone
preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there
is no such thing as a 'bridge'. Just because you are not inhibiting
the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not
suppressing it at all. IOW, you can't fool the body - it is smarter
than you are.

Take it for what its worth...

 

[mm107]

lol look, we both pasted the same info, Thanks MAx, i think u really nailed it for me.

SGT, thanks for the POST finding bro!



So you think 20mg Nolva will be suffice? 3 weeks after last EQ/Test shot?

 

[Maxgain]

Id suspect so but id ensure more was on just in case enough to cover 40 a day for a week anyway and the rest 20

 

[SgtSlaughter]

SGT, thanks for the POST finding bro!

no prob.

 

[mm107]

Id suspect so but id ensure more was on just in case enough to cover 40 a day for a week anyway and the rest 20

beautiful =]

 

[ryan04]

Don't know why you need milk thistly or liver detox seeing as how eq and test don't affect the liver. You only need that stuff if your running orals, but I'm sure it won't hurt any. Cycle looks good though and I think you have PCT covered. Good luck bro.

 

[gettinripped]

Exactly my apologies I meant to say every 3 days not 3x a week talk about hyprocritical not teaching what you practise.
Go 250iu e 3 days

so max,
you say every 3 days 250iu. then quit the hcg all together for pct or 1 week after or into pct?? also, are sepaking from experience in this situation?? not flaming, just like to know the advice i'm considering is from someone with experience and has actually practiced what they preach. like i said before, there are way too many opinions on this matter. i'm looking for the most practical for myself. i guess i'd better get my hcg started soon. i'm 5 days into my cycle as we speak.

thanks bro.

 

[Maxgain]

nova s harsh on the liver

 

[mm107]

Don't know why you need milk thistly or liver detox seeing as how eq and test don't affect the liver. You only need that stuff if your running orals, but I'm sure it won't hurt any. Cycle looks good though and I think you have PCT covered. Good luck bro.

Thanks bro!!

Yea, imm trying to get this thing down 100% before even getting the stuff, so i can pre-plan everything out.

 

[DiamondCutCows]

Thanks bro!!

Yea, imm trying to get this thing down 100% before even getting the stuff, so i can pre-plan everything out.

You're doing it the way it should be done. good work

 

[mm107]

You're doing it the way it should be done. good work

yea thanks tio you diamond i had a good base to research from!

I bumped the eq up just a bit. but thats about all i changed, thanks for the great advice in my other threads!

 

[SgtSlaughter]

nova s harsh on the liver

more info from the link i posted:

as far as SERM usage, if it nolva 3 weeks of use is 7-9 weeks of effects.

as a note- there is still considerable debate as to which is more effective nolva or clomid. the clinicals say clomid, though it likely just varies between individuals. what can be said is that clomid does not cause sexual disfunction, particularly loss of libido, which nolva has been linked to (30% in clinicals).--- quite the opposite with clomid..

 

[mm107]

So what do you guys think, clomid vs nolva?

i woulldnt want the loss of labido from nolva, i never read that before, thanks for pointing it out Sgt!

 

[SgtSlaughter]

So what do you guys think, clomid vs nolva?

i woulldnt want the loss of labido from nolva, i never read that before, thanks for pointing it out Sgt!

I tried Nolv from AG when I thought I had gyno (just chest fat come to find out) from prohormones a few years back ... felt like a damn bitch on the stuff... huge loads though, lol.

I'd have a selection of choices on hand... clom, nolv, adex, arom, letro ... but I do overkill with making sure I have "just in case shit" stuff on hand

 

[mm107]

I tried Nolv from AG when I thought I had gyno (just chest fat come to find out) from prohormones a few years back ... felt like a damn bitch on the stuff... huge loads though, lol.

I'd have a selection of choices on hand... clom, nolv, adex, arom, letro ... but I do overkill with making sure I have "just in case shit" stuff on hand

overkills i better then

Fuck i need clomid,
fuck AG is out
fuck chem research is out
Shit gotta get from a source
shit he takes 2 weeks

lol

i rather pick overkill =]

imma read up on em both, get some oppinions,

but i thought clomid made u moody/bitchy.
reaearch time!

 

[Maxgain]

stick with nova you will be fine I do not see a place for clomid in pct for most

 

[gettinripped]

get some aifm too. i've got 2 bottle on hand, just in case

 

[SgtSlaughter]

exactly my thoughts... better to have 'em around then be S.O.L.

 

[Ianhockey91]

def grab some aifm. Im on a similar cycle now only my test is being run at 600mg/wk and the eq is at 500mg/wk (I was originally gonna use deca). I just started week 3 so i can keep you updated as per my results.

 

[mm107]

def grab some aifm. Im on a similar cycle now only my test is being run at 600mg/wk and the eq is at 500mg/wk (I was originally gonna use deca). I just started week 3 so i can keep you updated as per my results.

thanks for the suggestion on AIFM, will be def picking up to run during cycle.

Do u got a log? i would love to subscribe to it so i can track ya progress.

i would like to do 500mg test/week, but its my first run through so imma keep my dosages low. =]

 

[SgtSlaughter]

thanks for the suggestion on AIFM, will be def picking up to

I told ya you need to start using AIFM NOW

It's quality stuff... although I think the squirter sprayed more than usual this morning.