Mr. Pendlay (MC, you can reply too)

[Anthrax Invasion]

I know your name is one of those people relate to the many variations of the 5x5 routine. Bill Starr and Madcow are now others. The thing I've noticed is, that most people who went the route of the dual-factor 5x5 (hell, even single-factor), myself included, ended up with lower back injuries. This is while oly squatting, so they're pretty upright with less low back involvement.

Squatting thrice, rowing twice, and deadlifting and OHP in the middle of it all seems to be too much for the lower back normally. On paper it already looks bad when you think about it.

However, it seems to be something promoted around a lot, and after discussing it with someone else, they brought up a good point - perhaps Glenn, Bill, MC, or anyone else who has trained others on said routine, had them work up to that lower back usage capacity over time through lighter routines.

So I ask you - yea or nay on this? Is it that people are coming into the heavier stuff to quickly that's hurting them? Do you have people use less overall volume to start with? I see poor ol' anotherbutters even hurting his back using Single-Factor, so it's not even the Dual-Factor 5x5 that's the issue, unless he has no idea how to row or squat (which very well may be).

 

[Illuminati]

I know your name is one of those people relate to the many variations of the 5x5 routine. Bill Starr and Madcow are now others. The thing I've noticed is, that most people who went the route of the dual-factor 5x5 (hell, even single-factor), myself included, ended up with lower back injuries. This is while oly squatting, so they're pretty upright with less low back involvement.

Squatting thrice, rowing twice, and deadlifting and OHP in the middle of it all seems to be too much for the lower back normally. On paper it already looks bad when you think about it.

However, it seems to be something promoted around a lot, and after discussing it with someone else, they brought up a good point - perhaps Glenn, Bill, MC, or anyone else who has trained others on said routine, had them work up to that lower back usage capacity over time through lighter routines.

So I ask you - yea or nay on this? Is it that people are coming into the heavier stuff to quickly that's hurting them? Do you have people use less overall volume to start with? I see poor ol' anotherbutters even hurting his back using Single-Factor, so it's not even the Dual-Factor 5x5 that's the issue, unless he has no idea how to row or squat (which very well may be).

could also be that form is an issue, and the lifts aren't being done correctly

 

[anotherbutters]

I my particular case, I was squatting within 30-40 mins of waking up, I jumped into too much work after a week off and I have an issue with one of my hamstrings. I also neglected core work. The SF 5x5 as laid out by madcow includes hypers (which I neglected too), although there is no mention of them in his DF description.

I still think it's a valid question since the 5x5 programs seem to be getting more popular. Maybe it's implicit work - there's no mention of stretching, but we all know to stretch.

 

[Protobuilder]

Well, by its very definition, Dual Factor is not for beginners. So, I think there's an assumption that people w/ the honest experience to go into DF have built up a solid base w/ the basic lifts, know how to perform them, and have a tolerance to workload such that they can handle the DF version. If they meet these criterion, you'd assume they have the core strength and wisdom to avoid sloppy form, etc. and not get injured.

It's a problem w/ any 'advanced' or even 'intermediate' system -- people on the net will do ANY program regardless of their experience level and regardless of what the forum mods/authors tell them. I've seen it over and over. Some noob thinks that if Super Advanced Mega Training System 5.0 worked for Billy Bob Jacked, it must work for him. And it's "way more exciting!" than a plain vanilla basic workout that a noob should really be doing. So total noobs who lack wisdom will jump straight into a program that will (a) kill them, or (b) screw up their joints. Madcow/Pendlay have said before that DF is just a tool for those who CAN'T make progress on SF. It's no magic routine, it's just a way to manipulate fatigue in order to make progress. You don't need to manipulate fatigue, though, if you can gain w/out doing so (e.g, most noobs & most 'intermediates' on the net). But I'd wager that most people dont understand that basic piece of theory. "Dual factor sounds cool!" And they run the program. Well, guess what? The workload is pretty high, and if you can't handle it, your form breaks down, you bury yourself w/ squatting frequency, etc., and you wind up injured or overtrained.

So, to answer the question, yes, the 5x5s are set up to start newer lifters w/ less volume. And there's an assumption that you have been trained on the big lifts (most of us on the net have not), and have a base level of anatomical development (e.g., your core can support the 5x5 program). There's absolutely NO ONE w/ any brains on here recommending Dual Factor 5x5 to noobs.

[this is NOT directed at AI, just my thought ]

 

[blut wump]

I've not had any lower back issues this past year that I can recall. I feel that my lower back has simply gone from strength to strength doing these exercises. Besides what I've gleamed from the 'Net, I'm completely self-taught with lifting, being guided at all times by what doesn't upset my back.

I stretch my hamstrings after every workout. Maybe this has saved me.

 

[Madcow2]

that most people who went the route of the dual-factor 5x5 (hell, even single-factor), myself included, ended up with lower back injuries.

Didn't you hurt your back at work moving boxes? I think Blut Wump had an issue on Korte's program because he got so much stronger than the percentages allowed for an was pulling PR singles long before he had conditioned himself for the attempts.

To the main question, there's an assumption of good technique, good conditioning, and significant experience. This is why cookie cutters aren't so good as over the internet who really knows if people meet this and everyone you talk to believes themselves as "advanced lifter". Also, this setup isn't about holistic training. It's just a breakdown of the core resistance work - GPP, flexibility, cardio, active recovery, nutrition, mental balance, etc...that's up to the trainee. It's also not meant to be a single static program/cookie cutter - but obviously people need something to go off of as an example to get them started. In addition, people tend to get strong pretty fast on these programs (i.e. Blut Wump in Korte), a lot faster than they are used to and that makes them push harder and sometimes they aren't ready for that or can't handle it safely.

So in my mind it's up to the trainee to know what is reasonable for him. Either that or get coaching. These programs are done safely and have been done safely for decades. The main issue is that the people administering them were on site to watch over people or make necessary changes if something wasn't a good fit for a person or at a given point of time. Internet doesn't afford that luxury and most people don't know what the fuck they're doing, have shitty technique, and no grasp of what's going on or what is appropriate for them. Hence - sometimes issues will arrise.

 

[BiggT]

I agree, there are too many factors to consider, from the lifter, to technique, to experience, to overall management. If done incorrectly, a routine like that can cause total burnout on the Wed. workout of week 1, lol......but, that type of routine, squatting three times, rowing, deads, etc in the same week has been working safely on everyone from genetic freaks to people who probably have no business in a gym for over 30 years.

Here is how I trained last week, and right now, my lower back feels better than it ever has......

Monday

Power Snatch (10 singles, set weight)
Squat Clean (10 singles, pyramid)
Jump Shrug (4x8, pyramid)

Tuesday

Back Squat (5x5, 2x8)
Incline Press (5x5, 2x8)
Situps (2 sets)

Wednesday

Power Snatch (5x2 @ 75%)
Squat Clean (5x2 @ 75%)
Standing OHP (4x8)
Barbell Row (5x5)
Skull Crushers (4x12)

Thursday

Front Squat (5x5 @ 75%)
Clean Pull (5x3)
Deadlift (5x3)
Barbell Curl (4x8)
Situps (2 sets)

Saturday

Front Squat (5 singles)
Good Morning (5x5)
Strict OHP (5-5-5-3-3-3)
Incline Press (5x8)
Dips (4x8)
Situps (2 sets)

Now, that would be ridiculous for me to give that as a cookie cutter to someone.....it probably makes absolutely no sense to look at, but if I told you I have been training for 14 years, and this last week is part of a plan I put into place on 8/1/05, and I showed my workout log for the last 6 and a half months, it would all make sense.

My point is that the setup works, but a lot of factors need to be considered. It is not inherently flawed, if people have low-back issues, it is because they need tweaking/coaching.

I didn't post that so people think I am cool and tough, cause I am neither, lol, I posted it to illustrate a point.

 

[BiggT]

Also, I have noticed lately, with some guys I have talked to, that a tendancy is to get almost insulted when you suggest that they are not an advanced lifter. I would take that as a compliment, lol, there is not a more exciting time in the gym that when you can still gain linearly, enjoy it. Guys do the SF 5x5 for 6 weeks, and all of a sudden they think they're ready for Hossein Reza Zadeh's routine, lol. If you're 20-some years old and weigh 225lbs and you're squatting 275x5, you're not an advanced lifter, and if you were 'lifting for years' then you were lifting incorrectly, you've got a ton of untapped potential, bring it out in the fastest, most efficient way possible. Potential is good, lol, being a beginner-intermediate lifter is good, the future is nothing but bright. You change your approach when and only when you stop progressing.

 

[Protobuilder]

Couldn't agree more. Everyone's "advanced" b/c they've "been lifting since high school off and on." LoL

Another thing occurs to me -- the original 5x5 was a football S&C program, right? Which means the trainees were under the guidance of athletic trainers. That's a far cry from Jimmy Nooby who's looking for the perfect set/rep scheme to "get hyooge" but has never even seen a perfect squat (cuz' you won't see it in most gyms). Then dumbfuck jumps into dual factor training b/c it's the latest thing he's read about . . .

There's a vast disconnect between real world S&C training and the surreal internet lifting realm where everyone's an expert and noone's been properly trained. LoL At least madcow is helping bridge the gap.

 

[Guinness5.0]

I think it's technique. Some back pain over the last few months has caused (well forced) me to change things up. I've been extra careful to hold my air tight when squatting/dl'ing etc. and I have had no pain to speak of despite ridiculous strength increases of late. Hell, I'm typing this post at my best friend's new house after helping him move for hours - this after the workout I did yesterday (speed squats, speed dl's, HEAVY RDLs, etc.) and I'm fine. BTW my buddy weighs maybe 140 so who do you think did all the work?

It's all about technique IMO. It's damn near impossible to hurt your back with good form.

 

[coolcolj]

why not save the deadlifts for the intenisty phase?

fullsquats will make the deadlift go up anyway. And they use similar muscles.

 

[BiggT]

why not save the deadlifts for the intenisty phase?

fullsquats will make the deadlift go up anyway. And they use similar muscles.

I don't know if you were asking me, or just asking generally, but you are absolutely right.

I add the deadlifts in at the end of a loading phase if it gets to be week 4 and I am feeling a little bit 'too good'. I may keep them and continue to load another week or 2 beyond planned to add to the workload. I don't try to exert 100% on them, but just enough to push me to feeling like crap, like I am properly loaded and ready to backoff for 2 weeks or so. I don't use them when deloading, then I do try to peak with them at times in an intensity phase.

 

[djeclipse]

I am on my last day of week 5 for the 5x5 (Single factor) and even though I've been making gains in all my lifts I don't have any back pain. But then again I started pretty low for my squat and dead lift, and also make a point never to skip on any accessory work like the sit up's and hypers. Hopefully I will be able to proress without any back pain/problems. Form is an issue here as most of us don't have anyone to watch our form and all we can go by is the descriptinons we read here.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Situps are bad for the back anyway.