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milk thistle may hinder gains

Shaved Ape

New member
This may be of interest since I know many of us incorporate milk thistle liberally during cycles because of its liver-protective properties.

I was reading an article in Muscular Development yesterday that discussed a new study on the effects of milk thistle on androgen receptor activation and localization. They found that milk thistle significantly reduced AR localization to the nucleus in cell culture experiments. We know that AR, once bound by AAS, must localize to the nucleus in order to activate transcription of target genes.

While we must take into account that these studies were in human cancer cell lines, the effects on AR localization may be more universal. It might be wise to look into this further, and to give second thought to using milk thistle unless you have a pre-existing liver condition.
 
Bump, just bought some milk thistle, but am now going to wait on taking it until someone can clear this up.
 
Actually, there is evidence that milk thistle's protection of the liver is vastly overstated. I can't recall where I read the study, but it was a double-blind control one.
 
I believe it is over rated, you're probably better off taking something else. Does anyone know how much you have to take in order for it to be effective. It just makes me think that anything you can buy over the counter, you'd probably have to take a very large amount for it to actually work.
 
OK, just to clear the air

brian haycock wrote the article, what he did not mention( assume since I have not read the article) is that the study was done in prostate gland tissue, the investigators did not draw any conclusions re tissue inother parts of the body, that is a very dangerous and not supported tact. There are multitudes of chems that are tissue specific. I have heard of no reports of diminished gains due to taking MT. There are many studies that testify to the efficacy of silymarin and silbinin in protecting and regenerating the liver. Until there is more conclusive evidence I would continue using my milk thistle. This article is genuinely interesting and hopefully there will be other studies done that will clear the air. BTW, the study the article is based on is one done by Zhu W, Zhang JS, Young CY.

BTW, BH responded to a similar post I made at meso and essentially agreed. He is a gentleman in all respects.
 
I've heard that co-enzyme Q10 (CO Q 10) has liver protective qualities.

I started taking it and it seems to have affected my energy levels.

Anyone else know?
 
Re: OK, just to clear the air

jboldman said:
brian haycock wrote the article, what he did not mention( assume since I have not read the article) is that the study was done in prostate gland tissue, the investigators did not draw any conclusions re tissue inother parts of the body, that is a very dangerous and not supported tact. There are multitudes of chems that are tissue specific. I have heard of no reports of diminished gains due to taking MT. There are many studies that testify to the efficacy of silymarin and silbinin in protecting and regenerating the liver. Until there is more conclusive evidence I would continue using my milk thistle. This article is genuinely interesting and hopefully there will be other studies done that will clear the air. BTW, the study the article is based on is one done by Zhu W, Zhang JS, Young CY.

BTW, BH responded to a similar post I made at meso and essentially agreed. He is a gentleman in all respects.

It's my intention to keep using it, jbold. What dose do you recommend of standardized extract?
 
Co-Q 10 is very good for overall health. Over time you will notice your energy level increase. It helps with everything you could think of. Here's just a lil article on it:

Enzymes are protein substances found in plants, animals, humans, and all living things. They are necessary for the building and rebuilding of tissues and cells. Enzymes are catalysts that influence all life systems in our bodies, and are produced by living cells but are capable of acting independently. They are complex proteins chat can induce chemical changes in other substances without being changed themselves. Enzymes consist of two parts: the protein portion and the cofactor portion. The protein portion is determined by the genetic code. Either minerals (such as calcium, magnesium and zinc), vitamins, or both in some instances, make up the cofactor portion of the complete enzyme. The vitamin portion is usually called the coenzyme. Every cell contains a part called the mitochondria which acts like an engine. The enzyme that makes this engine work is called succinate dehydrogenase CoQ10 reductase. The cells do not use the nutrients consumed in the diet for their immediate supple of energy. Instead, they create an energy-rich compound called adenosine triphosphate, or simply ATP. ATP is the fuel used for all the energy requiring processes within the cell. In turn, the energy in food is extracted to build more ATP molecule represents chemical energy made in the cell as it is needed, and is responsible for 95 percent of all cellular energy throughout the body. Although ATP serves as the energy current for all cells, its quantity is limited. In fact, only about three ounces of ATP are stored in the body at any one time! This would provide only enough energy to sustain strenuous activity, such as running as fast as you can, for 5 to 8 seconds. Therefore, ATP must be constantly synthesized to provide a continuous supply of energy.

Where Coenzyme Q10 Comes In
Ubiquinone, another name for coenzyme Q10, was derived from the word Ubiquitous because the enzyme was found in all cells of the body. It is a naturally occurring molecule, and is the cofactor in the electron transport chain - the biochemical pathway from which ATP and most of the body's energy are derived. A need for supplemental coenzyme Q10 could arise for several reasons: 1. Impaired coenzyme Q10 synthesis due to nutritional deficiencies. 2. Genetic or acquired defect in coenzyme Q10 synthesis. 3. Increased tissue needs resulting from a particular medical condition. Because of its role in energy production, a deficiency) of the enzyme could cause or aggravate many medical conditions. When taken orally, coenzyme Q10 is taken up and utilized by the body. Because this enzyme plays such a vital role in energy production and can be administered orally, it can correct a deficiency of the enzyme along with associated medical problems by supplementing the diet with it. Medical Benefits of Coenzyme QIO
Coenzyme Q10 is present in all body cells, with the heart and liver cells containing the greatest amount. Clinical studies have shown that coenzyme Q10 levels decrease as we get older, and research suggests this could be a large factor in age-related medical conditions. A deficiency of coenzyme Q10 is common in cardiac patients. Myocardial biopsies conducted on patients with various cardiac diseases showed a deficiency of the enzyme in up to 75 percent of the patients studied. Because the heart is so metabolically active and needs the constant supply of usable fuel for its constant contraction and pumping action, it is unusually susceptible to the effects of coenzyme Q10 deficiency. Research points to this supplement to be of great promise in the treatment of heart disease. Patients suffering from a variety of heart problems, including angina pectoris, congestive heart failure, cardiomyopathy, hyperthyroid heart failure and mitral valve prolapse have shown extraordinary clinical improvement when given coenzyme Q10, displaying a significant increase in life extension. As with cardiovascular ailments, coenzyme Q10 appears to be useful in the aid of weight loss by stimulating the mitochondria and increasing the fat-burning process. Dr. Lu C Van Gaal and associates studied two groups of obese individuals on a controlled reducing diet. The only difference between the two groups was that one group was given daily doses of 100 mg of coenzyme Q10. Within nine weeks, the group on coenzyme Q10 lost an average of 30 pounds, compared with an average of 13 pounds for the other group. Dr. Edward C. Wilkinson, periodontal specialist and dental researcher, investigated some of the causes of gum disease. He and his co-researchers found that diseased dental tissue exhibited a remarkable deficiency in coenzyme Q10. By supplementing patients with daily doses of the natural enzyme, Dr. Wilkinson and his team were able to reverse gum conditions that were threatening the life of the teeth. Even in cases that appeared to be hopeless with no other choice but to remove the teeth to treat the gums the use of coenzyme Q10 showed great improvement. Numerous studies have pointed out the deficiency of coenzyme Q10 in gum tissue. Peritonitis itself may lead to a localized enzyme deficiency. However, studies have shown that 86 percent of the patients also had low levels of coenzyme Q10 in white blood cells, indicating the presence of a systemic imbalance. Many illnesses are associated with abnormalities of immune system. Attempts to improve the immune function of the body are standard therapy in the treatment of cancers, chronic infections and acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS). Just as important but seldom thought about is the energy needed by the immune system to perform its job! Since immunity demands a constant supply of first-grade energy, coenzyme Q 10 must be in constant and adequate supply. In a number of human studies, patients with various diseases including diabetes, cancer and cardiovascular problems were administered coenzyme Q10. Within three twelve weeks, significant increases in the level of immunoglobulin G were found in the serum of these pants. This increase would signify either a correction of immunodeficiency or an increase in immunocompetence. As our knowledge of this vital enzyme expands, coenzyme Q10 may well be looked upon as the new Fountain of Youth.
 
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