May experiment in further increased frequency...

[Debaser]

A similar routine worked for Bill Piche of Cyberpump, but I'm thinking of something along the lines of this:

Monday

Squat 2 x 5
Bench Press 2 x 5
Overhead Press 1 x 5
Hammer Row 2 x 5
Curl 1 x 5


Wednesday

Deadlift 2 x 5
Hammer Incline Press 3 x 5
Pulldown/chin 3 x 5


Friday

Same as Monday

Didn't list things like situps, side bends etc...will arrange that later.

This will be an interesting experiment, but in reality most old-timers trained 3 fullbody workouts a week, and this was in the pre-steroid era.

Casual I'm especially looking for your opinion on the matter, I'm open for improvements but I like the idea of squatting twice a week and deadlifting once (i.e. the days don't rotate the next week around).

 

[Deleted member 33117]

I think this routine leaves a few muscle groups with less direct work than one might want, but I believe in high frequincy workouts. Lately, I've been hitting muscle groups 4-5 times a week, for very intense workouts, and find that I am making gains in weight and stregth, while on a mild cutting diet. I've lost bodyfat (a lady friend of mine noticed that my "stomach is harder") but have put on 6 ibs and have set several new PR's. The only change has been an increase in frequincy (note I am an enhanced athelete, so my recovery ability is a bit higher).

I also agree that old school bodybuilders in the pre-steroid era (although many of them did use one d-bol first thing in the morning, including Steve Reeves... most guys today would say you can't make any gains doing sucha thing), did 3 full body workouts a week. Even guys like Arnold and Franco trained each body part 3 times a week on a split routine. If lower frequincy is the key, why do most of the steroid users on this board lack physiques despite having access to many extremely powerful drugs not available in the 70's, such as trenbolone, hgh, insulin, clen, r3-igf-1, etc. As a matter of fact, while I will not name any names, there are some very nice bros who have posted after pictures from some very agressive cycles (more than I feel comfortable using), who have nice bodies after many years of steroid use and hard training, but with arms that look less than half the size of the pro's from the old days, and without the same quality to their musculature.

By that same tolken, in the athletic world, outside of bodybuilding, low frequincy training is unheard of, and no one with a degree in excersize science would advocate such a thing for a serious athetele's weight training program. So, were the old school guys onto something? It would appear so. It is self-evident logic (as Mezer was so fond of saying when advocating the oposite approach), and now we have scientific research to back the idea of high frequincy weight training.

Debaser, sorry for rambling on so, although I would add a few mont exercizes, I think such a routine will yield good results. Good luck, and Merry Christmas to you bro!

 

[casualbb]

Well, like with any program, the first thing I'd ask is, what are your goals?

 

[WalkingBeast]

Do you include warm-ups in that list? How many warm-up sets do you usually do and are they heavy? Just curious, cuz warm-ups definately count for something in my opinion. Though alot of people just list work sets. ThanX

 

[Deleted member 33117]

WB, agreed. Its like when people say Dorian Yates only used one working set per lift. But some of his 3 warm up sets before his "Dorian Set" look pretty insane to me. I think alot of guys use up too much muscle glycogen doing high-rep warm up sets before their heavy sets sometimes as well, and impede their performance on their heavy sets as a result. Anything over a 6 rep set with anyting heavier than 50% of your 1 rpm is definately not a warmup, but a working set.

 

[coolcolj]

That's not high frequency

 

[Debaser]

Do you include warm-ups in that list? How many warm-up sets do you usually do and are they heavy? Just curious, cuz warm-ups definately count for something in my opinion. Though alot of people just list work sets. ThanX

I don't include warmup sets in the list, though I do them. I do 1-3 depending on the exercise and poundages I'm using. They're not very taxing in general, just enough to get me ready for a top poundage.

And casual, my goal is strength and size, as always

I will definately be training hard, probably about 1 rep away from failure and hitting failure on the final sets will probably happen.

BBF I don't think I've ever seen your routine actually listed, could you describe it for me?

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Debaser, currently I'm training on a two way split. I change my lifts and rep ranges slightly from workout to workout, and train primarily with trisets and drop sets, each in the 4-6 rep range, with some straight sets with low reps. At least one workout a week for each body part is a lighter workout in the 12-20 rep range. Workout one is back, thighs, traps and biceps. Workout two is chest, delts, calves and triceps. I do 3-5 sets per bodypart, with lagging bodyparts getting around 5, and dominant bodyparts averaging 3 per workout. Recently I was doing each workout on non-consecutive days, do each 3 times a week with a day off. Recently I switched to doing workout two in the morning, and workout one in the evening two days on one off. So basically I've been training my entire body over two workouts in a day, two days in a row, with a day of rest preceeding.

 

[Debaser]

I've also found that direct tricep work is pretty unnecessary, the main reasons I'm doing curls is that rows don't hit the biceps hard (relative to supinated chins) and that I enjoy the exercise and would love to become proficient in it. It would be awesome to do a strict 200 lb curl someday.

Calves and shrugs I am considering, but more as accessory work with the side benefit of working those 2 muscle groups more directly. Shrugs help with the deadlift lockout and calf strength helps in squat stability. A couple sets wouldn't hurt

Also BBF and casual, do you think splitting the workout into 2 sessions in a single day is beneficial for lowering CNS stress, or detrimental? I have the time (and the drive) but I'm wondering if it would really help or not. Also, are there any threads specifically on 2 per day workouts on the HST forum? I will see what I can dig up.

 

[WalkingBeast]

I don't include warmup sets in the list, though I do them. I do 1-3 depending on the exercise and poundages I'm using. They're not very taxing in general, just enough to get me ready for a top poundage.

And casual, my goal is strength and size, as always

I will definately be training hard, probably about 1 rep away from failure and hitting failure on the final sets will probably happen.

BBF I don't think I've ever seen your routine actually listed, could you describe it for me?

Nice! ThanX!

 

[b fold the truth]

Keep us posted. What would you think about making the Friday workout like so:

Squat Variation: 2 sets of 3-12
Flat Press Variation: 2- sets of 3-12
OHP Variation: 2 sets of 3-12
Row Variation: 2 sets of 3-12
Curl: 2 sets of 3-12

The variations might help you to work on your weaknesses in your lifts and keep up the excitement a bit. It will also give you a chance to experiment with a few new exercises that you might or might not like.

The rep variations is something that I like to do with my accessory exercises. If I feel strong I'll do heavier sets and sometimes I'll do lighter sets. I try to allow for variation...keeps me sane

Squat Variation:front squat, box squat, partial squat, paused squat, 1 1/2 squat, squat on plates, zercher squat, etc...

Bench Variation: close grip, board press, partial press, incline press, 1 1 /2 reps, wide grips, etc...

OHP Variation: dbells, barbell, partials, palms facing, close grip overhead, wide grip overhead, etc...

Row Variation: elbow in dbell, elbow out dbell, wide/mid/narrow barbell, seated pulley, face pulls, etc...

Curl Variation: dbell, hammer, concentration, barbell, reverse grip, etc...

Just a thought. It would help keep me sane an it would really help to keep different exercises into my rotation so that I could better find the variations which really help me work on my weaknesses and that might work for me from time to time.

B True

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Debaser, as far as central nervous system stress, to be honest with you I've seen no research or evidence one way or the other on this one, so any answer I give, I would just be pulling out of my butt.

I do however feel that when training my entire body in one day, I perform much better (meaning I can handle heavier weights for the last few body parts) on a two way split, and breaking it up into two sessions. I haven't found that I'm exhausted enough at the end of a session that only trains half of my body, to lose any strength on the last body part trained, when comparing it to a 3 way split, so I opt for training my body over two sessions, even when only doing one workout a day. Experiment a bit with yourself, and see how your body responds, since we all recover and adapt at different rates. I've seen a number of well respected strength coaches say that a two way split is optimal for building mass, but remember one who agreed with this also saying that for strength he felt a whole body workout was best. B fold, what is your take on this?

I like B fold's advice on the variations. That is one reason I do not have a set routine as far as lifts either. Sometimes after a couple of sessions for a given body part, I like to hit it with a variation lift, even if it is nothing more than switching from a barbell to dumbells on a given lift, to give my muscle a slightly different stimulation. Charles Polquin (spelling?), seems to advocate never going more than 6 sessions for a body part without changing something, such as rep range, grip or foot spacing, or choice of lifts, to prevent one from stagnating in their progress.

 

[casualbb]

Also BBF and casual, do you think splitting the workout into 2 sessions in a single day is beneficial for lowering CNS stress, or detrimental? I have the time (and the drive) but I'm wondering if it would really help or not. Also, are there any threads specifically on 2 per day workouts on the HST forum? I will see what I can dig up.

I don't think you're planning on doing enough as it is to even begin to be concerned with fatigue. I know you love the idea of uber-low volume, but I think at this point striving to have as minimal a routine as possible is compromising your goals.

You can probably combing your monday and wednesday's routines into a workout performed 3x/week and be just fine.

 

[Debaser]

Keep in mind that I'm operating near failure most of the time though casual, are you sure the volume is too low if I'm doing hard training constantly?

B fold that is a great idea, however since I like to keep things incredibly simple, I think what I'll do is stick to what I have until I begin to stall, then maybe try what you suggested. After all if it's working, why change it I'll know pretty quick after the first few weeks.

 

[Debaser]

What if it were more like this?

AM Workout

Bench Press 4 x 5
Hammer Row 3 x 5
Squat 4 x 5
Shrug 4 x 5
Situp 4 x 5

PM Workout

Overhead Press 2 x 5
Pulldown 3 x 5
Stiff-legged Deadlift 4 x 5
Calf Raise 4 x 5
Side Bend 4 x 5

With the idea being to use the same weight on all these sets (each of these still does not include warmups). Which means if I do hit failure, it will only be on the last set if any.

Is this now bordering on too much volume for a split day? Or is that about right?

Note: I decided to omit curls until I solve my minor wrist problems. The KTA program is wreaking havoc on my hands and wrists, I might have to space it out a little bit more so it doesn't interfere with my gym work.

 

[collegiateLifter]

I do however feel that when training my entire body in one day, I perform much better (meaning I can handle heavier weights for the last few body parts) on a two way split, and breaking it up into two sessions.

you are right on here, in that all else being equal, a program split into halves should be better than the single session based one.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Yeah, mainly because you're giving your body a break before pounding at it again.

 

[c3bodybuilding]

I think you see a lot of guys with less than stellar builds even after a ton of gear, is because of terrible nutrition and overtraining more than anything else. I don't think it has anything to do with frequency at all.

Also in Arnolds Education of a bodybuilder, he said he built his mass on training everything 1-2 times a week at the most using only very basic movements, and got up to a solid 250, and only after coming to America did he start the 6 day a week hitting everything 2-3x a week double split as a way to 'polish' his body. He was basically doing a 2 hour cardio session to burn off a few lbs of bodyfat.

I know all of thats off topic, but I feel that needs to be made clear. A lot of newbies might read some of the comments made by others in this thread, and jump on an Arnold 6 day a week program thinking they will gain on such a thing, when in reality unless you have elite genetics, and steroids on your side such a high frequency, high volume approach will lead you nowhere.

Debaser, as for your routine, I wouldn't worry too much about cns burnout. With a low volume routine like that, and not going to complete failure, or beyond, you should be just fine. I know lately you've been reading a lot of hardgainer, iron addict, etc type stuff, but if you want to go high frequency, I wonder why you don't go back to DC, and do it his way? As we both know, his program delivers.

 

[Debaser]

Yes, DC does work great. I'm just trying to find the maximum frequency my body can handle

 

[casualbb]

Yes, DC does work great. I'm just trying to find the maximum frequency my body can handle

That's gonna depend on your routine; jump in and try it! Worst comes to worst you start to notice burnout symtoms and you lower volume or frequency. All part of getting to know your body.

 

[coolcolj]

even better alternate between high freq and low freq. High freq to load up, low freq for recovery...

2-3weeks of high freq, 3 weeks of low freq etc

there your training like most athletes, dual factory theory