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MattTheSkywalker
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You will learn more about business if you spend money on a table at the flea market and sell cookies than you will in business school.
Cost of table: ~ $300 / month ---> $3600 per year
Cost of top biz school: ~ $40K per year.
You don't need formal education to do that math.
Cost of table: ~ $300 / month ---> $3600 per year
Cost of top biz school: ~ $40K per year.
You don't need formal education to do that math.
gotmilk
New member
Hey..I'm a business moron but I think that business school is over-rated.
Real world experience is tough to replicate in the classroom.
My lack of business knowledge probably hinders me but I make a fark load more money than most b-school grads make...and it's not from luck.
I ate tACOs today....I'll make a poop thread later about it.
Real world experience is tough to replicate in the classroom.
My lack of business knowledge probably hinders me but I make a fark load more money than most b-school grads make...and it's not from luck.
I ate tACOs today....I'll make a poop thread later about it.
Lestat said:
Wow, you've outdone yourself for wrongness, well done pilgrim.
The emergence of MBA as a valuable degree has caused more people to flock to it. As MBAs get into management, they look to hire people like themselves.
This leads to a surge in MBA applicants, across all intellectual strata. The natural outcome of this is a surge in the number of MBA programs (now offered by online degree mills everywhere).
Ultimately, the surge in the number of MBAs means that the degree is devalued. Supply rises and exceeds demand: wages drop.
You'd make a good business school student. Your inability to understand this simple principle has MBA written all over it.
jackangel
New member
the idea of going back to school doesn't appeal to me at all, because i'm lazy and stuff.
but going back primarily to make more money (and spending god knows how much in the process) sounds iffy at best.
maybe the top-tier schools will get you to the 150k+ salary range (that's just a number i'm throwing out there), but can you gain admission to one of those? even so, it will take you at least a couple of years to finish such a program, right (i have little idea)?
given the time, the money, and the effort you spend getting an MBA...do you think it's the best option? in other words...if you put all of that towards...anything else, don't you think you could do just as well for yourself, if not better?
by the way, i have no idea what i'm talking about, so please punch me in the gut.
but going back primarily to make more money (and spending god knows how much in the process) sounds iffy at best.
maybe the top-tier schools will get you to the 150k+ salary range (that's just a number i'm throwing out there), but can you gain admission to one of those? even so, it will take you at least a couple of years to finish such a program, right (i have little idea)?
given the time, the money, and the effort you spend getting an MBA...do you think it's the best option? in other words...if you put all of that towards...anything else, don't you think you could do just as well for yourself, if not better?
by the way, i have no idea what i'm talking about, so please punch me in the gut.
gotmilk
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
I hired myself. I even gave myself a bonus after closing the Aspen project. Another couple of hurricanes and I might change my name to J.R. Ewing. If only Tuck could send me another 12 people like me, I might actually be able to have a conglomerate.
Those damn MBA's starting salaries sure make me jealous. Well, more like Je-lus.
While it pains me greatly, Matt is right.
Practical experience teaches more and more effectively than schooling will and that goes for any field whether it's specifically a degree in business, Architecture, even Medical school. You just can not duplicate real life with an imaginary or a re-enactment of a situation, transaction or discovery.
Knowing what to do in an "ABC" situation is not the same as being able to react and carry through in "ABC" situation and see that it comes through to fruition.
That’s not to say that a future employer won’t get googly eyed to see that MBA from so and so college. It will certainly get you in but offer little guarantee of your personal success.
Practical experience teaches more and more effectively than schooling will and that goes for any field whether it's specifically a degree in business, Architecture, even Medical school. You just can not duplicate real life with an imaginary or a re-enactment of a situation, transaction or discovery.
Knowing what to do in an "ABC" situation is not the same as being able to react and carry through in "ABC" situation and see that it comes through to fruition.
That’s not to say that a future employer won’t get googly eyed to see that MBA from so and so college. It will certainly get you in but offer little guarantee of your personal success.
gotmilk said:
WHat part of the deal did you close in Aspen? How is construction going?
Once again you like to come through with quite condecending, and often times ignorant statements.MattTheSkywalker said:
There are plenty of degree mills and programs. Here in town you can go to SDSU and get an MBA.. even do it part time, and you can expect to mak 43,000 afterwards, that is, afterall, what the average salary of their graduates are.
Or you can study your ass off in undergrad, take the GMAT, and go to a top tier school.. Harvard, Penn, Stanford, Cal, Northwesterm, MIT.... these are not degree mills, they are extremely competative. You will be subject to rigorous coursework, and will complete a challenging internship before you are done.
After which you will learn things like price elesticity... similar to the simple supply and demand you'd learn at a flea market, but a little more complex. You'd learn that if you are a whole sale producer of goods, especially branded goods, that a small reduction is selling price of one product, could least to a robust increase in sales in another, or even many products in a line.
I used to think a lot like you, that you just have to start working, get experience, and you can eventually just be a CEO..
this is absolutely true, I'm not saying it isn't. But its unlikely that you'll be a CEO at a large multi billion dollar company without some pretty serious background, both practical experience and in academia. YOu don't learn things in school that you are putting into practice 30 years later, but you do learn how to write, how to present, how to work with others that you are in competition with, how do deal with economies of scale, how to set and meet deadlines.... can you learn these on your own, sure, is it likely you will be able to take yourself to that level on your own? probably not.
pitbullstl
New member
I went to one of the top 5 business schools (for graduate degrees in 1996) The John M. Olin School Of Business at Washington University (St. Louis).....
100% worthless....aside from a few of the hot chicks I met, and making a few friends who are now in industries that benefit me greatly, I learned not one thing that has bettered my finances....................with one small exception, with two daughters (and one on the way), who will no doubt go to great schools... should they upon graduation decide to further themselves with business graduate studies.......
I know not to fund them.
100% worthless....aside from a few of the hot chicks I met, and making a few friends who are now in industries that benefit me greatly, I learned not one thing that has bettered my finances....................with one small exception, with two daughters (and one on the way), who will no doubt go to great schools... should they upon graduation decide to further themselves with business graduate studies.......
I know not to fund them.
gotmilk
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
No construction...we are so behind that it's worth it to wait until Spring to start. We just received approval from the planning board this week. Plus, we are getting land downtown for condos. Approval for about 40 in exchange for helping Pitkin County preserve Hunter's Creek.
10 homes, 40 condos so close to the chairlifts that you could shoot the chairs with a BB gun. MUHUHAAHAAAAA
I have three others like this one too....
Lestat said:
Thanks dreg, I have not had an Internet debate other than politics in quite some time.
All day long I work with finance people from institutional investors who went to the schools you are talking about. You're not getting anywhere near the top biz schools unless your background is finance, preferably wall street. Why? Simple: these guys take care of each other and protect their reputation.
A high GPA and board score works for law school and med school; top biz schools want to make sure the reputations persist. All I do all day is talk to people in finance and investment banking, advise institutional investors, and deal with CEOs of insurance groups, after going through the process of meeting with 30 venture capital firms before we raised an 8 figure sum.
So what the hell do I know? Maybe you've done these things too. Oh, no, wait, you've done none of them, why do you insist on taking the time to post up your uninformed garbage?
LOL There is nothing I can say to garbage like this except "good luck".
gotmilk said:No construction...we are so behind that it's worth it to wait until Spring to start. We just received approval from the planning board this week. Plus, we are getting land downtown for condos. Approval for about 40 in exchange for helping Pitkin County preserve Hunter's Creek.
10 homes, 40 condos so close to the chairlifts that you could shoot the chairs with a BB gun. MUHUHAAHAAAAA
I have three others like this one too....
Do you actually own the property yourself or are you representing investors?
gotmilk
New member
Brokered a sale for a fee with conditions. Conditions being we construct and profit from home and condo sales. We bring the construction company, the architect, and the interior designer (who must work topless).
It was easier bringing in a buyer with a decent background because of all the issues surrounding land conservation and mineral rights. Much easier to obtain approval from the Planning Board.
In the end, I'll make slightly more with zero liability.
I have a couple of better projects that are going to take up my finances.
It was easier bringing in a buyer with a decent background because of all the issues surrounding land conservation and mineral rights. Much easier to obtain approval from the Planning Board.
In the end, I'll make slightly more with zero liability.
I have a couple of better projects that are going to take up my finances.
gotmilk said:
So you introduced a buyer and a seller?
I am surprised the buyer didn;t have his own construction resources.
Scotsman
New member
velvett said:
I'll agree with the experience part, I have learned a lot on the job that they didn't teach in school. Of course no school has a program for what I do. Having done my degree in the hardcore sciences I see where I have a distinct advantage over non-degree people. As for business I can't even begin to go there so I can't make any statements about it. I do know on the architectural thing that my best friend graduated from a top five arch school and is an apprentice like most other's. Of course I am sure none of them got the high profile job that was his first one. Now he gets to do the certification process, which will take another year, since his three year internship is over.
Cheers,
Scotsman
Vel and matt are right on target, but let me add that after 10 years of cooking, i went away to CIA to learn a common language, a vocabulary of technique and standards, NOT to learn to cook. I was a better 'chef' than most of my instructors, but i was a MUCH better chef when i graduated.
Its a matter of becoming MORE than the sum of your parts: experience is irreplacable, but having the appropriate historical and functional repetoir that can ONLY be gained in a mentor/apprentice or school/student atmosphere is essential.
Its a matter of becoming MORE than the sum of your parts: experience is irreplacable, but having the appropriate historical and functional repetoir that can ONLY be gained in a mentor/apprentice or school/student atmosphere is essential.
jackangel said:
I dont know the guy, how could I dislike him? I do strongly advise people to enthusiastically disregard his comments on business education though.
Please note I am not impugning all education as a useful step toward success in a field, rather, I am criticizing the idea of business education as inherently valuable.
I look at college as a series of tests, analogous to running a track event.
The difficulty of your school is equivalent to the difficulty of the race. Some people choose a difficult race, with high hurdles, and tough competition. Others choose a race with competitors that will make it more likely for them to finish near the top, but not nearly as fast.
That is what my undergraduate education was for me. It was in a social science field.. not directly related to my work, but did it help me? Absolutely. In many different ways.
Business school is yet another challenge, a hurdle, you don't have to do it, you can still succeed, but you do it, you come out a stronger person. And its a salient accomplishment that others can see.
If for no other reason, like I said before, graduates of top schools average 6 figure salaries. I don't give a fuck if I came out of that program DUMBER then when I started, give me the paycheck.
The difficulty of your school is equivalent to the difficulty of the race. Some people choose a difficult race, with high hurdles, and tough competition. Others choose a race with competitors that will make it more likely for them to finish near the top, but not nearly as fast.
That is what my undergraduate education was for me. It was in a social science field.. not directly related to my work, but did it help me? Absolutely. In many different ways.
Business school is yet another challenge, a hurdle, you don't have to do it, you can still succeed, but you do it, you come out a stronger person. And its a salient accomplishment that others can see.
If for no other reason, like I said before, graduates of top schools average 6 figure salaries. I don't give a fuck if I came out of that program DUMBER then when I started, give me the paycheck.
Hiatussin
New member
This isn´t limited to economic programs.
From what I heard for instance, most dentists learns more about practical dentistry in their first 2 months of practise than in 5 years of university.
I have also noticed that a lot of the very succesful people I meet never went through much schooling, they just took their powerful minds and hit the market at a (very) young age.
I´d hate to start working that early though. But that´s probably largely due to being raised with another prospect.
From what I heard for instance, most dentists learns more about practical dentistry in their first 2 months of practise than in 5 years of university.
I have also noticed that a lot of the very succesful people I meet never went through much schooling, they just took their powerful minds and hit the market at a (very) young age.
I´d hate to start working that early though. But that´s probably largely due to being raised with another prospect.
S
Spartacus
Guest
Matt do you think doctors are poor business men?
or is that a myth?
or is that a myth?
awittyusername
New member
gotmilk said:No construction...we are so behind that it's worth it to wait until Spring to start. We just received approval from the planning board this week. Plus, we are getting land downtown for condos. Approval for about 40 in exchange for helping Pitkin County preserve Hunter's Creek.
10 homes, 40 condos so close to the chairlifts that you could shoot the chairs with a BB gun. MUHUHAAHAAAAA
I have three others like this one too....
Gotmilk, you in construction and development? I used to be in construction, but the last few years I have been developing. What are your other projects like?
gotmilk
New member
awittyusername said:
No, I broker deals and I sometimes buyout projects with the idea I can resell these projects for a profit. Land development, oil sales (REBCO only), Casino funding and development, and anything I can make money on.
I also trade a lot of stocks but no daytrading. I prefer stocks I can enter and exit within a week.
I'm in the process of taking over a bank with plans to take it public before the end of the year. In...Out..Next.
Matt has his Emporer, I have Juglish, Mordecai, and ZU WANG.
pitbullstl
New member
gotmilk said:
lol....ass.
pitbullstl
New member
gotmilk said:
That's it, your dead.
I got it.....I'm in St. Louis though, one of our businesses is based in the Broward/Palm Beach County area. I'm only actually down there 12-16 weeks of the year.
pitbullstl
New member
gotmilk said:
I have a home in Highland Beach (Toscana), but my main residence is in St. Louis (for now).
I just want to clarify a few things because this thread is slightly different to what I thought at first.
1 - Most employers love to see the right school on your resume - sorry it's true. Especially, from what I've seen, in Medicine, Law and Architecture - I can only assume business could be the same but that's not my gig. That said even if you don't go to the "right" school doesn't mean you're not going to get that dream job or that you can't be extremely successful. Next to a fancy degree being driven having a pulse, some sense and a savvy personality are key.
2 - If you have the means, will and time to stay in school or go back to school for that Masters - DO IT.
3 - Don't expect to know everything after you get that Master's and don't be surprised when your peers remind you that you don't know shit because you don't and they will. (I was far more educated than my former boss in school and more experienced in business and contracts than she and all I ever heard was about how long she'd been in business yahda yahda yahda - YAWN - and i still managed to learn a lot. Just suck it up, learn something and move on to the next level.)
1 - Most employers love to see the right school on your resume - sorry it's true. Especially, from what I've seen, in Medicine, Law and Architecture - I can only assume business could be the same but that's not my gig. That said even if you don't go to the "right" school doesn't mean you're not going to get that dream job or that you can't be extremely successful. Next to a fancy degree being driven having a pulse, some sense and a savvy personality are key.
2 - If you have the means, will and time to stay in school or go back to school for that Masters - DO IT.
3 - Don't expect to know everything after you get that Master's and don't be surprised when your peers remind you that you don't know shit because you don't and they will. (I was far more educated than my former boss in school and more experienced in business and contracts than she and all I ever heard was about how long she'd been in business yahda yahda yahda - YAWN - and i still managed to learn a lot. Just suck it up, learn something and move on to the next level.)
velvett said:
bran987
New member
btw I'm in school with people who have already started grown and sold their own businesses, have worked in their family garment empires in India and come over here before going back to take over, headed up senate campaigns (that one sketchy I know), flown fighter jets in the air force, and on and on. They aren't all boring moron automatons, average years of work experience is 5 years in my class. They aren't all geniuses either, but nobody ever said you have to be a genius to do well in life.
Lest you think I'm skirting, as all of the above is irrelevant to the topic, there is not the proverbial good old boy network here you will find in NYC where someone only hires from a certain school, and the fact is you'll find a lot, a lot of MBA alumni from my school, UT, even A&M at the top of companies in Dallas (pardon the run on, I haven't taken the business writing course yet). The very top. It's plain to see, they print it in the business journals. Correlation? Yep. Causation? Only God knows.
Each week I get to meet and converse with C level execs, I have a mentor board of over 200 alumni with contact info. at my disposal, and I'm packing 4 hours of class and 5 hours of studying in there each day in useful topics. I'm surprised at some of the comments, as I used my undergraduate education extensively in my chosen field and it was peanuts compared to what I'm doing now. It was nuttin'. This is a 12-16 hour grind each day and I don't believe it's all for naught.
I know it sounds like denial or else how could I justify to myself doing it, hahaha. Yes, as you move up in life, technical skills give way to sales and negotiation ability, people & soft skills, and at least the program I'm in works to develop both sides equally. It's a far cry from T-Accounts and NPV shit. If nothing else I'm enjoying the challenge and rigor immensely.
I love working. I plan on doing it for another 50 years or so, depending on how human life span grows or shrinks during the time. So this is 20 months. Weighed benefits vs. costs, potential gain, payback time, scholarship, contacts, education, perception, scales tipped pretty far in one direction for me.
I'd say the people who went and say they never used it.. didn't get everything out of it they could've, or just don't realize it when they do use it.. pesky self-attribution bias. One thing it definitely should NOT build is an ego, because while B-school does give you tools & resources, it does not give you ability.
Lest you think I'm skirting, as all of the above is irrelevant to the topic, there is not the proverbial good old boy network here you will find in NYC where someone only hires from a certain school, and the fact is you'll find a lot, a lot of MBA alumni from my school, UT, even A&M at the top of companies in Dallas (pardon the run on, I haven't taken the business writing course yet). The very top. It's plain to see, they print it in the business journals. Correlation? Yep. Causation? Only God knows.
Each week I get to meet and converse with C level execs, I have a mentor board of over 200 alumni with contact info. at my disposal, and I'm packing 4 hours of class and 5 hours of studying in there each day in useful topics. I'm surprised at some of the comments, as I used my undergraduate education extensively in my chosen field and it was peanuts compared to what I'm doing now. It was nuttin'. This is a 12-16 hour grind each day and I don't believe it's all for naught.
I know it sounds like denial or else how could I justify to myself doing it, hahaha. Yes, as you move up in life, technical skills give way to sales and negotiation ability, people & soft skills, and at least the program I'm in works to develop both sides equally. It's a far cry from T-Accounts and NPV shit. If nothing else I'm enjoying the challenge and rigor immensely.
I love working. I plan on doing it for another 50 years or so, depending on how human life span grows or shrinks during the time. So this is 20 months. Weighed benefits vs. costs, potential gain, payback time, scholarship, contacts, education, perception, scales tipped pretty far in one direction for me.
I'd say the people who went and say they never used it.. didn't get everything out of it they could've, or just don't realize it when they do use it.. pesky self-attribution bias. One thing it definitely should NOT build is an ego, because while B-school does give you tools & resources, it does not give you ability.
pitbullstl
New member
gotmilk said:
Table Rock, Bull Shoals....they are linked together.....
pitbullstl
New member
bran987 said:
Ahhhh yes grasshopper, but you aren't far enough removed from the learing experience to be objective.
I'm not discounting formal education of any kind, (and I don't think Matt was either) but when weighted equally it is my opinion that the experience quotient in contrast to the schooling is invaluable....
bran987
New member
Maybe not far enough removed.. I just don't see how you all can discount it to the degree (hah) that you do. Sure I learned a shitload in the 3 years I was in development.. I wish I had done it before my BBA, but now I did that and I can look at the educational material now with new eyes. I could've kept on doing what I was doing and still gotten from point A to B, this is just a fast forward mechanism. At least so far.pitbullstl said:
But maybe I'll end up feeling the same way you do.
It seems everyone has been on the Anti-MBA wagon for awhile now, it's fun to make fun of business students. You are all saying ahhh yes but experience is the best. Well I had 3 years of it before now and I'll have 45 of it after this. So I'll get my experience. I would not discourage people from taking 20 months to do this, ESPECIALLY if the did not study business in an undergraduate program. I guess in pitbull's position he can hire all his minions to take care of the details
. You've earned the right to be a big picture guy 100% of the time now though pit, right?. A business education is one potential piece, a building block under the pyramid to get there, for someone who is not already.In response to the people saying anything that will get you 100k/year is worth it, that is a dumb reason to go though I agree.
MattTheSkywalker said:
I'm reading this reply and thinking about my experience as a corporate recruiter. I hired people from entry level to Management. I also was asked to comment on Executive level placement candidates.
The life and work background, degrees and GPA were all first steps in sorting the herd. Obviously, some of the openings we were filling had precise requirements, including MBA's.
From that point on, it became more about the person and their ability to work with teams of people.
Many times I found outstanding candidates for business positions from unrelated fields. The reason why is .... leadership can be more important than a specific degree. A Leader can surround him or herself with great people and guide the team to success.
I had no background in business ... I had a philosophy and science background. I did have an ability to lead and was reasonably successful in "business" as a result.
I also saw MBA's be extremely capable leaders and others be a flop.
4everhung said:
My experience with doctors is this
(1) they are smart
(2) they are not as smart as they think they are
Most of them do very well with property investments, and they understand the value of franchises, so they do well with things like apartment complexes or car dealerships.
They're not poor businessmen, they just are better at science than at business.
gotmilk
New member
bran987 said:
I'm not sure it's about making fun of B-students. It's a great accomplishment to get thru B-school. I just think a MBA is over-rated. Hard work and talent is something you cannot "earn" thru schooling.
You're going to do well in real estate because you are willing to make the effort, not because you have a MBA. Finding property, lining up financing, finding builders, brokering a sale...that's all stuff you can do with or without a MBA.
Experience and effort are what will make you better over time, not your schooling, not your GPA, not your B-school pedigree. Having access to contacts and mentors is a plus, but unless they can physically help you close deals, arrange financing, or partner with you on projects, those contacts will be about as useful as a phone book.
MBA's have become an over-rated "badge of honor" in the business world. Far too much emphasis has been placed on whether you need a B-school degree or not.
http://www.ericgiguere.com/images/all-bran-front-400-619.jpg
pitbullstl
New member
gotmilk said:
In a nutshell......moderate/conservative midwestern mentality.
There are some areas in Southern Missouri/Northern Arkansas, where many wealthy outdoorsman are building beautiful custom homes. Years ago that land could be bought for pennies on the dollar, not so much anymore.
The money to be made in that area, now lies in the luxury retirement villages (attached villas and smaller luxury homes).
Mavafanculo
New member
here's a pretty funny Fedex shot at MBA's - implying they're self-impressed tools with no practical skills. hmmmm....
http://media.skoopy.com/vids/vid_00767.wmv
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http://media.skoopy.com/vids/vid_00767.wmv
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U
UA_Iron
Guest
Ripping on business majors! I love it.
Business majors here at the UA...most dont have class on friday, most party many days out of the week, a lot of hot bitches, a lot of douchebags. Most are slow are realizing things (IE piss me off because they are in my way).
Many of them are lucky to make 40k/year out of college.
I agree that the business degree is getting devalued as there are so many people going for it..unless of course you have connections.
One of my math teachers specifically stated that she applied for a business job and got the job over 20 business majors because of her math background.
Business majors here at the UA...most dont have class on friday, most party many days out of the week, a lot of hot bitches, a lot of douchebags. Most are slow are realizing things (IE piss me off because they are in my way).
Many of them are lucky to make 40k/year out of college.
I agree that the business degree is getting devalued as there are so many people going for it..unless of course you have connections.
One of my math teachers specifically stated that she applied for a business job and got the job over 20 business majors because of her math background.
bran987
New member
right, that was my last comment in my first post.gotmilk said:
or a college degree.. or a high school degree..
well for example I'm going to an Real Estate Society meeting in 2 weeks, a networking event with 300+ alumni from my school who are in the RE Industry... that's better than a phone book don't you think? Plus I'm the first year president of the RE Club so I am going to get to know a lot of them over the coming 2 years.
I agree on that. It's not "needed"
I think this process can teach you hard work and discipline. There's just no way to make it through without time management, and this is the first I've ever gotten up regularly at 5am in my life. I like it. It's changing me.
I also realize I spent a long time in this thread defending what I'm doing, probably more so to myself than anyone else. So just so you realize I do have the ability to criticize myself too, that probably means I have more doubts than I realize.
The purpose of any education is simply to teach you the language of the field you wish it enter. Whether that be, Finance, Accounting, Medicine, Chemistry, Physics, whatever. That's the only goal of the education.
Beyond this. It's up to you.
Beyond this. It's up to you.
