Making Muscle Last the Years

[GreenEggsnHam]

Ok I have just finished reading Education of a bodybuilder by Arnold Schwarzenegger. Part 2 in his book has him doing exercise routines and showing people how to do them. He looked around the same age as we was when he was winning Mr.O's. The only difference was he was tiny, he still had muscle, but his shoulders were very narrow and he just shrunk all over. I assume he was just off roids at this point, but it made me wonder.

This made me wonder a few things. Lets say your reach 100% of your genetic limit naturally, and then decide to juice. After juice for say 12 weeks on a Test only 500mg cycle, you reach 120% of your limit, at this point you get off the juice for good. Now how hard would it be to maintain this muscle mass, assuming your diet and training is consistent? Could you maintain well into age 50's or most of it?

Im mainly wondering if in the long run its better to reach nearly 100% genetic limit naturally before juicing to say 120%. If its ok to juice at 75% of your genetic limit to 120%. Or if its almost better to stay natural. I wanna be huge but I dont want it to be an arnold thing where im huge only when on juice and then just look like a recreational lifter off. I see some bodybuilders in there 60s that still have 20 inch guns and am wondering how they did it.

Im currently natural now at about 205lbs 12%bf, 5'11. I was thinking of doing a test only cycle next year but am now debating on how I can make my size last for the next 20-30 years. And I dont wanna juice at 75% limit, reach 120%, come off. Say I get injured and shrink back to 75%, and then cant even reach my natural limit anymore without juice, because I juiced when I wasnt at my natural limit.

 

[C.K.]

You think too much everyone is different also depending on pct and diet and consistent training there is no rule or definite answer to your question

 

[zwhit]

What CK said. Plus those bodybuilders with 20 inch arms in their 60s probably have awesome genes and are on higher dose HRT.

 

[-SD-]

Its all genetics. Roids allow you to rent muscle thats about it.

 

[stevesmi]

I don't think anybody can answer your question with 100% accuracy. the medical community is way behind.. who would of thought by 2011 we still wouldn't have a cure for cancer or spinal injuries. thats what happens when most medical peeps get into the profession for money, not for the good of humanity.. buts that another debate for another time.

anyway in my opinion, in that scenario.. eventually you would go back to 100%. but it would take a long time as long as you ran a PCT, got recovered quickly after your cycle and kept busting your ass. also running something like primo which you aquire SLOW, quality water less gains.. vs. something like dbol which gives you quick water gains.. makes a difference

if you stopped working out, and ran no PCT you would lose it all very quickly.

but then there is the muscle memory thing. this is real.. i've seen triathletes break their legs, then 6 months later come back and run 18 minute 5K's.

this is why its important to exercise when you are young, it will pay off later

 

[RottenWillow]

This made me wonder a few things. Lets say your reach 100% of your genetic limit naturally, and then decide to juice. After juice for say 12 weeks on a Test only 500mg cycle, you reach 120% of your limit, at this point you get off the juice for good. Now how hard would it be to maintain this muscle mass, assuming your diet and training is consistent? Could you maintain well into age 50's or most of it?

Im mainly wondering if in the long run its better to reach nearly 100% genetic limit naturally before juicing to say 120%. If its ok to juice at 75% of your genetic limit to 120%. Or if its almost better to stay natural. I wanna be huge but I dont want it to be an arnold thing where im huge only when on juice and then just look like a recreational lifter off. I see some bodybuilders in there 60s that still have 20 inch guns and am wondering how they did it.

Good questions and a subject I think about often.

I don't even think it's an arguable point that one has the potential to go further beyond one's natural limit for muscularity if one trains all the way to the natural limit before using exogenous hormones. If the body reacts to prolonged supra-physiological amounts of androgens by creating more androgen receptors, then that means the body's requirement for those unnaturally high hormonal levels is going to increase. You will need even more gear to agonize the new AR's in order to facilitate further muscle acquisition beyond the natural limit.

I think the first cycle dosage can be a hell of a lot lower people think and still provide gains. If a young, healthy, well nourished, male mesomporph makes maybe 75mg a week in total T, why in God's name do we think the first cycle for a man needs to be 500mg of the test of your choice?

To answer the question, I think if you train all the way to your absolute natural limit, run a modest, careful first cycle that doesn't raise the T levels any more than absolutely necessary for no longer than necessary, I believe you can retain a level of muscular bodyweight beyond your natural limit without continued use of exogenous hormones.

 

[stevesmi]

^^^^ that makes sense. this is why people say to run test as a first cycle and not go overboard.

a first cycle i recommend is test cyp 8 weeks, dbol 20mg weeks 1-3 as a kickstart. and then a solid PCT.

reading some other boards guys are routinely running tren and insane amounts of testosterone.. 1 or 1.5 grams worth. its silly

 

[RottenWillow]

I think an ideal first cycle for a man would be T prop 150mg every other week. That's one week natty, one gassed up, for a total of 16 weeks. The short ester punches that T up prior to the first hard workout, and you hit it again to keep it up through the workouts and the first rest day. Allow the levels to fall back to normal within 7 days and maybe you never suppress your gonadal production at all.

You'd run that with a pretty standard hard/easy workout cycle. So hard week gassed up, easy week natty. Might possibly need to raise the total weekly dose in 50mg increments every 4 week depending on results.

For someone who really did train all the way to the natural limit, I bet the gains from a cycle like this would be quite nice.

 

[stevesmi]

^^^^ very interesting.

i've experimented with the idea of running 3-4 week prop test/mast prop cycles.. for me i dont start shutting down till week 5 so i've always though this was a good idea.. i am gonna try that myself.

 

[GreenEggsnHam]

Another thing I was wondering is, say one reaches 100% Genetic limit naturally, I know for pretty sure you would be able to maintain a lot of that over the years as long as you kept hitting the weights hard and eating right. Now say you get to 100% genetic limit and then juice to 120% your limit in a short 12 week test cycle. Now ive never been on steroids so even with proper pct, training and dieting, I dont know how well you would maintain that 120% limit over say 10 years (age 20-30). But is it safe to say that even if you did lose that extra 20% that came from AAS that worse case scenario you would just return to your 100% genetic limit base you had naturally, before starting the cycle?

Basically asking in the long run would you have more mass if you reaced 100% limit naturally and tried maintaing it forever. Or juiced from 100% limit to about 120% and tried to maintain as much mass naturally after cycle? Basically I wouldnt want the juice to ever make me worse than when I started the juice, thats what im asking.

 

[stevesmi]

^^ again no one can answer your questions exactly.

we can make assumptions. and like i said above.. if you keep eating, workout out hard, and are disciplined you stand a greater chance of keeping your gains then a guy who doesn't

 

[C.K.]

I think an ideal first cycle for a man would be T prop 150mg every other week. That's one week natty, one gassed up, for a total of 16 weeks. The short ester punches that T up prior to the first hard workout, and you hit it again to keep it up through the workouts and the first rest day. Allow the levels to fall back to normal within 7 days and maybe you never suppress your gonadal production at all.

You'd run that with a pretty standard hard/easy workout cycle. So hard week gassed up, easy week natty. Might possibly need to raise the total weekly dose in 50mg increments every 4 week depending on results.

For someone who really did train all the way to the natural limit, I bet the gains from a cycle like this would be quite nice.

get your female dosages outta here

 

[zwhit]

^^^agreed. It all boils down to the extra nitrogen retention we get from the juice. Without it gains will eventually fade.

 

[Nelson Montana]

I disagree. It's possible to maintain some of the gains, but it will require proper training , increased nitrogen retention (That's where GEAR is a godsend). And it won't be 50 pounds over your limit. Maybe 15-20.

And eventually, HRT -- but I'd wait until after 40 for that.

 

[GreenEggsnHam]

IN THE LONG RUN U WILL LOOSE ALL of wat u gain beyond your natural 100% limit

PCT, supplements etc might slow it down but at a minimal rate, but fact is, you will loose it

how fast will you loose it? well it really depends on your genetics and other factors

alot of guys will admit that once theyve passed there natural limit it wont be longer then 6 months before uve lost most of wat uve gained beyond your natural limit

HOWEVER that being said, alot of guys underestimate or overestimate there natural limits, ive seen some guys hit 455 bench press and once coming off cycle went back down to 335 with a period of 3 months

while other guys ive seen carry 19.5inch arms lean and stayed off AAS for over a year

everyones genetics do vary,

i can use myself as an example n tell ya wen i use to come off cycle i use to loose almost all my arm size n strength i ever gained becoz my arm genes are very poor, while my back hardly looses any size wen i was on or off, while on other hand once i came off AAS and train my shoulders, everytime i walk into the gym my dumbell shoulder press will become 2 reps weaker everytime i trained my shoulders

people are always trying to maintain there AAS gains but realistily those who do maintain there gains or 100% of there gains are they guys who start on 160 pounds, gain 20 pounds n then brag how theyve maintained all there gains

while some other AAS users are not off AAS for very long periods of time or they cycle on and off n never have enough time to see how much of there gains they will really loose as they hop back on AAS again to prevent the muscle loss and regain what theyve lost

but apart from all this, there is always simple math to make my point clear

we all know testerone is anabolic/androgenic (muscle building/fat burning) and is naturaly produced by the male body

we know the more testerone you take the more muscle you can build/maintain and burn fat

now on average we can say a male naturaly produces the equivalant to 100-150mg of testerone cypionate weekly

you train naturaly (100-150mg tsteron) for years and finally hit your natural 100% limit

so you decide to take 500mgs of testerone cypionate for 12 weeks to make gains BEYOND ur 100% limit

now you come off AAS and are back on 150mgs or 100mgs

how long do you think muscle mass gains that required 500mgs of testerone will last?

Well then it would seem unless your gonna juice more than once to maintain the mass. What is the point in juicing at all? All it is, is added risks to your natural t level and your telling me youll never be able to maintain it anyway for a long period of time without AAS. In this sense I dont see the purpose of roids then? Or is it because its so hard to reach your 100% genetic limit

 

[gymjunkie09]

You think too much everyone is different also depending on pct and diet and consistent training there is no rule or definite answer to your question

lol