Madcow2 - question on routine/deadlift weakness

[lavi]

Well I'm on the second week of my Madcow2(TM) approved routine. I posted up a log here: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=405568.

today on deadlifts on my last rep, the top half of the lift went REALLY slowly and I looked like I was quite hunched over as if at the end of a crunch. very very ugly, but luckily my back is feeling ok. I THINK that can point to weak abs. I also get lower back pain when doing weighted situps, which I have also been told is a result of weak abs (compared to your lower back). I'm wondering how I can modify my routine to fix this as I needa make some progress on my deadlifts!

Coming into the routine I felt that abs were an issue for me, hence the zerchers and cable crunches, but apparently its not enough.

Anyway, I appreciate anyones input or help.

thanks,
-lavi

 

[Madcow2]

Looking over your log I see a lot of final sets that culminate in big jumps and wind up being singles or doubles. Judging by the decimal places and your description above these sound pretty close to maximal grinding rep efforts. This is too much and a bit worrying. Take your time and continue to build using good form. It's weekly progression that you are looking for and continued max efforts like this will burn you up too quickly.

Another thing that I notice is your dead is much higher than your squat or other lifts. It kind of worries me that you think you might have a weak core here, back off on the dead weight some and get clean reps with good technique. Technique is important, you train with good technique so that your max or best efforts can break down a bit and you'll still be fine. If you are allowing form to deteriorate too badly in training that's really not a good idea. I'm not saying every rep has to be picture perfect but there's a happy medium and I think you are on too close to the bad technique side.

As for core strengthening there's a book that's been popular called 'Core Performance' or some such. Maybe something to check out. I'd also work on hypers, situps, and lighter goodmornings for reps (10+). Use weight when you are able but like I said, there shouldn't be pain or grinding effort, this type of resistance/weight will allow you to use good technique and condition the weak links which I suspect might be present. You are looking for conditioning not breaking yourself in half. Build up slowly and don't get hurt. The same goes for the core lifts, just add poundage each weak, no monster jumps that end up resulting in a grinding single or some shit rather than a set of 5 or whatever, and don't compromise your technique in training as much as I think you are. Stay tight and maintain form.

 

[lavi]

I forgot to post it up on the log, but before in another thread you helped me out on the routine. The plan was to be going for 5 or 3rms (on 2 days out of the week) for 4 weeks and then a deload on the 5th. Hence not always getting the reps. The first day I screwed up though, I started to high and had to adjust my weights accordingly. And zerchers I hadnt done before.

Should I change this? I thought the frequent deloads would allow training with greater intensity.

For bench I was planning to move up 5lbs when I hit full reps, squats and rows 10lbs for now and deads and zerchers 10lbs since its every other week. too much?

As for the deads, I'm not 100% sure it's my core thats the problem as I am no expert that is what I am deducing. How would I know more confidently? I guess I'll be less aggressive with the deads though. Situps hurt the lower back, and I am nowhere near flexible enough for goodmornings yet unfortunately. I seem to be pretty strong with hypers and have had them in my training often, but I guess I could continue using them and add them in on 1 of my training days.

-lavi

 

[lavi]

Found the link for the other thread: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=403007

thanks!

 

[Madcow2]

I forgot to post it up on the log, but before in another thread you helped me out on the routine. The plan was to be going for 5 or 3rms (on 2 days out of the week) for 4 weeks and then a deload on the 5th. Hence not always getting the reps. The first day I screwed up though, I started to high and had to adjust my weights accordingly. And zerchers I hadnt done before.

Should I change this? I thought the frequent deloads would allow training with greater intensity.

Sure, but not when you are supposed to get a 5RM and get 1.5 or some such reps. You should start conservatively so you have a chance of making them. Maybe week 1 and maybe 2 make sure you make your reps and this will give you a better idea. I was just blown away by the magnitude of the misses. It's too much. See how it progresses though, this is a learning thing so see how you do, deload and try it more conservatively.

For bench I was planning to move up 5lbs when I hit full reps, squats and rows 10lbs for now and deads and zerchers 10lbs since its every other week. too much?

Rows is probably closer to 5lbs rather than 10. Not sure about the zerchers and your capacity, go by feel, it's a new movement so you might get away with that.

As for the deads, I'm not 100% sure it's my core thats the problem as I am no expert that is what I am deducing. How would I know more confidently? I guess I'll be less aggressive with the deads though. Situps hurt the lower back, and I am nowhere near flexible enough for goodmornings yet unfortunately. I seem to be pretty strong with hypers and have had them in my training often, but I guess I could continue using them and add them in on 1 of my training days.

-lavi

I would alter my technique on the dead to be picture perfect for now and include hypers and core work. It sounds like there might be an issue with flexability etc... Something you should consider working on.

 

[lavi]

Yeah I know I would have been a lot better off if I started lower. They were all numbers I had done before so I thought I'd be able to hit em again. After doing nothing for a week though, its hard to do such a heavy workout at your max capabilities and not get fatigued. Definately learned from that one lol. Hopefully my deload will give me a good fresh start.

Ill add in hypers for now and try to find some other core excercises I could throw in there. flexibility is something ive largely ignored up to about a month ago. I just keep learning I dont think it wouldve caused the issue with my deads breaking down, but it is definately a problem in other areas. I just keep learning

Thanks for the help!

 

[lavi]

does the cow respond to PMs?

I dont wanna start a new thread so hopefully this post will be noticed.

today my back was once again totally unable to do squats. i was planning to work up to 265x3. 175x5 was tough. I tried unracking 215 a few times but it was just too heavy on my back to start repping. Not that soreness means anything, but my lower back is still very sore from my dl workout.

bench went just fine, and bb rows i had to skip.

As mentioned in the thread I linked to in this thread, I had this problem when doing the single factor 5x5 too. my dl was at 365 before i did the single factor, I got it to ~410-420 after 6-8 weeks of that which is awesome progress. I got burned out, took a week off and tried the single factor version again and had this problem. then i tried something else, then tried wsb which went alright until I stuck in deads for ME day and had this issue again. And now with this new routine same deal.

I know I messed up the first day by going too heavy, but could that have really led me to be "overtraining" after only 2 weeks? my benching was not weak today at all.

How can I increase my deads at this point?

 

[Madcow2]

Yeah - so this is why Westside Barbell tries to avoid training the dead on a regular basis and uses box squats and goodmornings. It takes a lot out of the lower back as well as the CNS and this appears to be what you are dealing with. It's also the reason why I wrote this: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4783202&postcount=388

It sounds like you have the ability to pull heavy for a bit of volume but are unable to tolerate it on a consistent basis. Although you might find improvement in your tolerance as time goes by, this is where you are right now and there's nothing that can be done except change it. I'd recommend learning how to do clean pulls and snatch pulls which provide tremendous results due to acceleration without overtaxing the lower back from load. You could also try speed deadlifts during the volume phase and cut the weight down and add increments each week.

 

[lavi]

Yeah - so this is why Westside Barbell tries to avoid training the dead on a regular basis and uses box squats and goodmornings. It takes a lot out of the lower back as well as the CNS and this appears to be what you are dealing with. It's also the reason why I wrote this: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4783202&postcount=388

It sounds like you have the ability to pull heavy for a bit of volume but are unable to tolerate it on a consistent basis. Although you might find improvement in your tolerance as time goes by, this is where you are right now and there's nothing that can be done except change it. I'd recommend learning how to do clean pulls and snatch pulls which provide tremendous results due to acceleration without overtaxing the lower back from load. You could also try speed deadlifts during the volume phase and cut the weight down and add increments each week.

When I did the DLing with WSB, i had only 2 days until DE day instead of a possible 3. So I'm thinking of adopting a general WSB template (with 3 days after ME day) in the interest of more recovery time than a 5x5 routine.

Im thinking:
3 wks:
ME upper - bench for 5rm, 3rm, 1rm
ME lower - deadlift for 5rm, 3rm, 1rm
assistance work andspeedwork for all three, including 6x1 powercleans or highpulls for deads
If I end up not recovering from deads in 4 days, I could change it to a 3 day wsb split so itll be spread out even more, being more than 3wks. might hurt the benching a bit though.

Then a week off with basically nothing - just some prehab stuff and a bit of oly stuff for practice and for fun

Then 3wks the same except doing squat for 5rm, 3rm, 1rm instead of deads. then a week off and repeat

Metal Militia basically does shirted bench for an ME exercise 3-4 wks in a row, takes a week off, and continues. my point being it should be ok to use the same exercises. I hate changing routines all the time, but seeing as I cant GM yet and am not proficient in the oly lifts, i dont know if my 5x5-like routine can work.

would lockouts on deads tax my lower back even more? theyre heavier but a lot less rom so im not sure. I would think they would but if not maybe I could do those + speedwork in place of deads in the 5x5?

also whats the diff between cleans, clean pulls, powercleans, and full cleans?

 

[blut wump]

If you give the 5x5 a run through again, ease up on the deads. It sounds like you have some recovering to do somewhere in that lower back. I also get the impression that you're mentally not accepting that working with lighter weights will give you results during the volume phase.

I've swapped out bent rows for powercleans in the 5x5 and felt that it has helped my posterior chain a lot.

 

[lavi]

If you give the 5x5 a run through again, ease up on the deads. It sounds like you have some recovering to do somewhere in that lower back. I also get the impression that you're mentally not accepting that working with lighter weights will give you results during the volume phase.

I've swapped out bent rows for powercleans in the 5x5 and felt that it has helped my posterior chain a lot.

thanks for the input bro.

im actually not doing the 5x5 at the moment, i was trying a routine with a similar rep scheme that would involve less deadlifting to avoid CNS fatigue. the problem is that it seems my lower back only has problems recovering from deadlifts. If i were to do the 5x5, id probably run into the same problem once i hit week 3.