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lower body fat in women
- Thread starter raider47
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Sassy69
New member
For many women this is where there are more fat cells so even when following a strict diet & training regimen (noting that you can't spot reduce) this will be the last (thus "most stubborn") area to appear to lose body fat because of the higher concentration of fat cells. Above & beyond standard diet & training / cardio, such methods as DNP, clen, ECA, etc. can aid in the reduction of overall body fat, but only liposuction can really actually reduce those specific areas. Even if this is done, then the relative concentrations of remaining fat cells in different places will be where the fat appears to now accumulate if good diet, training, cardio are not continued to be observed.
So, diet, training, cardio. Supplement to aid these and lipo to physically remove it, though fat may start "appearing" in other areas (e.g. remove some fat from hips, it starts looking like your arms or upper stomach or something else now "get fat"). Anti-estrogens such as nolvadex can be used to help reduce the estrogen-specific fat depositing action as well. As with all prescription or otherwise "supplements", care should be taken to understand their purpose and impact on the body, particularly when it comes to the female body and its hormones.
So, diet, training, cardio. Supplement to aid these and lipo to physically remove it, though fat may start "appearing" in other areas (e.g. remove some fat from hips, it starts looking like your arms or upper stomach or something else now "get fat"). Anti-estrogens such as nolvadex can be used to help reduce the estrogen-specific fat depositing action as well. As with all prescription or otherwise "supplements", care should be taken to understand their purpose and impact on the body, particularly when it comes to the female body and its hormones.
Sassy is correct. HGH should be added to the list as well as antiestrogens to combat lower body fat. I would definitely do a few cycles of dieting/cardio style resistence training/T3-Clen or DNP or HGH/antiestrogen before considering plastic surgery. One must consider plastic surgery as an endpoint, a finishing touch, not a starting point.
If the diet/meds give the desired results, then they need to be maintained indefintely..you are fighting crappy genetics. Liposuction is great when MINIMAL amounts of fat need to be removed. The results are hideous when large deposits need to be removed..that's why i suggest drug/meds first.
raider47 said:
I lost mine the old fashioned way - heavy weight training, high intensity cardio (lots of sprint training), and clean diet. I also think the fat burner Adipokinetix was much more helpful than others I've used. I've also been using topical Yohimbine for the past few months, and that's helped as well.
For years I avoided heavy leg training because I thought my legs were huge enough. I was skinny fat pear-shaped - a size 4 on the bottom and size 2 on top. I had a bony chest with toothpick arms, and my butt and thighs were soft and looked way bigger than my upper body. I starved, did endless cardio, and lots of light weight/high reps and nothing changed.
Now I'm a size 2 on bottom and a size 4 on top - most of that is due to increase in back and shoulder width because I've dropped a cup size
but I like myself much better this way. I look at my legs now and STILL can't believe they're mine! They actually look more muscular now, because they're not covered with a thick layer of fat, but jeans-wise they're smaller.capchris33
New member
Good job FitFossil...can you give more specifics on how you acheived your goals? Diet, Exercise program, ect... I know someone who fits your description to a "T" and she can't seem to get rid of her lower half!!
Thanks!!
Thanks!!
Littlerippedgirl
New member
I have had pretty good results using yohimbe. Also while dieting I follow an isocaloric diet using MCT's as my fats. You basically split your proteins fats and carbs into 3 equal parts. 33% a piece. This lowers insulin and switches your metabolism to a fat buning mode. This combined with lots of cardio can get rid of all that bodyfat without very much muscle wasting. the MCT's keep your energy levels up.
macrophage69alpha
New member
krazy k,
yohimbine in women is most effective in hips, thighs, glutes and triceps- traditional female fat storage areas- though some may female fat in other areas- these are the areas that typically have high A2 concentrations.
yohimbine in women is most effective in hips, thighs, glutes and triceps- traditional female fat storage areas- though some may female fat in other areas- these are the areas that typically have high A2 concentrations.
Some really excellent points here. Most lower body fat is high in A2 receptors, which are easily triggered. Yohimbe is the only stuff that blocks A2 receptors; topical application is superior to pill form because of the topical's ability to provide more Yohimbe to the receptor site. Obviously, antiestrogen work. So does HGH. The problem is maintaining the low fat levels; you will be fighting your genetics over the long-term.
MCT's are medium chain triglycerides..excellent energy source while on low carb diet--these are more rapidly broken down than long-chain fat (dietary fat found in meat, vegetable, dairy).
MCT's are medium chain triglycerides..excellent energy source while on low carb diet--these are more rapidly broken down than long-chain fat (dietary fat found in meat, vegetable, dairy).
LA COSA NOSTRA
New member
On page 58 of Dan Duchaine's Underground Steroid Handbook II, he says that long term Nolvadex therapy will completely eradicate the problem of fat accumulation in the hips and buttocks. He doesn't state how long "long term" is, but he does suggest using 20mg/day for fat loss in women.
toga22
SideShow Freak
First off I believe that before jumping to liposuction or plastic surgery you have to give a good honest effort through diet, cardio and weight training. I am currently following the ketogenic diet. Im in my 8th week and have dropped my body fat 3% from 10% down to 8%. The whole diet and the concept behind the diet makes a lot of sense. I also supplement the Yohimbine tablets. I can not honestly tell you though if the results are from the diet/exercise or the pills. My guess is more towards the diet and exercise.
Here is one source for Yohimbe oils and caplets:
http://www.webrx.com
it is under the vitamins tab
Best of luck to you!!
Here is one source for Yohimbe oils and caplets:
http://www.webrx.com
it is under the vitamins tab
Best of luck to you!!
Intersting discussion. When DrJMW said "The problem is maintaining the low fat levels; you will be fighting your genetics over the long-term" he really summed it up. Unless you want to be on strong antiestrogens (a lot stronger than Nolvadex) for the rest of your life, you will be battling female genetics to keep lower bodyfat under control. In other words you must support some type of eating disorder forever if you want lean thighs and hips forever.
As far as MCTs are concerned DrJMW, could you explain to me how these help you lose fat.........from a simplistic point of view it seems to me that giving your body a dietary fat that is easier and more preferable to burn than fat contained in "meat" (ie in our poor over fat bodies) that we will be encouraging the use of dietary fat over stored bodyfat. This sounds like a very good idea for endurance athletes looking to maximize energy production for a gruelling event, but I'm not clear how this would help the average bodybuilder looking to burn as much stored (animal) fat as they can? Hope you can enlighten me.
LA COSA, I can asure you that long term Nolvadex treatment does not produce the results in women that Duchaine proposited. If this were true then there would be a tremendous number of female breast cancer patients with very lean hips and thighs. the reality is that Nolvadex is a selective estrogen receptor blocker. These receptors are very abundant in female breast tissue but much less abundant in most womens thigh and hips. And keep in mind that Nolvadex can also be estrogenic in other tissues. Nolvadex can help with lower bodyfat in some women, but only when combined with a strict regime of dietary restriction and exercise.
As far as MCTs are concerned DrJMW, could you explain to me how these help you lose fat.........from a simplistic point of view it seems to me that giving your body a dietary fat that is easier and more preferable to burn than fat contained in "meat" (ie in our poor over fat bodies) that we will be encouraging the use of dietary fat over stored bodyfat. This sounds like a very good idea for endurance athletes looking to maximize energy production for a gruelling event, but I'm not clear how this would help the average bodybuilder looking to burn as much stored (animal) fat as they can? Hope you can enlighten me.
LA COSA, I can asure you that long term Nolvadex treatment does not produce the results in women that Duchaine proposited. If this were true then there would be a tremendous number of female breast cancer patients with very lean hips and thighs. the reality is that Nolvadex is a selective estrogen receptor blocker. These receptors are very abundant in female breast tissue but much less abundant in most womens thigh and hips. And keep in mind that Nolvadex can also be estrogenic in other tissues. Nolvadex can help with lower bodyfat in some women, but only when combined with a strict regime of dietary restriction and exercise.
macrophage69alpha
New member
pills are least effective for fat loss. but if you wish to use them be sure to get PURE yohimbine hcl- NOT yohimbe.
as far as topicals- powder and topical premix yohimbine solution can be found at http://anabolicfitness.net in the AF store
peace
as far as topicals- powder and topical premix yohimbine solution can be found at http://anabolicfitness.net in the AF store
peace
MS--duchaine suggests using MCT's in ketogenic dieters that get light-headed..ie they need a quicker carb source. Medium chain triglycerides can be broken down faster for the glycerol to glucose conversion than long-chain (meat or stored fat). I personally do not use MCT's in my personal ketogenic diet.
I hear ya Wilson6. There is now good evidence that long term tamoxifen treatment causes and increase in female fat:
Body composition measurements using DXA and other techniques in tamoxifen-treated patients.
Ali PA, al-Ghorabie FH, Evans CJ, el-Sharkawi AM, Hancock DA.
Department of Medical Physics and Radiotherapy, Singleton Hospital, Swansea, U.K.
Tamoxifen is an anti-oestrogenic drug which is widely used in the treatment of patients with breast cancer. There is increasing interest in using the drug both for benign breast disease and as a chemo-preventative agent of the drug in women at high risk of breast cancer. Despite the fact that the acute side-effects of the drug are few, its agonistic and antagonistic oestrogenic effects are not fully known and may have some undesirable effects for patients treated with the drug for several years. A number of studies carried out recently indicate a varying degree of change in bone mineral content following treatment with tamoxifen. These studies concentrated mainly on bone mineral density measurements only and non of them reported the effects of tamoxifen on lean body mass and fat mass. In this study we measured lean body mass and fat mass in tamoxifen-treated females and a comparison group to determine the difference between the two groups. Twenty-six women receiving tamoxifen (20 mg/d) have participated in this study. The control group comprised 31 healthy women of a similar age. Total body bone mineral (TBBM) was measured using a dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DXA) (Hologic INV., Waltham, U.S.A.). Similarly, regional and total body soft tissue (lean and fat tissue) were measured using the DXA system. In addition to DXA measurements, percentage body fat (%BF) was measured using total body potassium counting (TBK), skinfold anthropometry (SF), infrared interactance (i.r.) and bioelectric impedance analysis (BIA). Results from DXA alone showed that there were no significant differences between the two groups for TBBM, regional and total body lean tissue mass. However, there was a significant difference between the two groups (P < 0.05) for %BF measurement. Similarly there was a significant difference between the two groups (P < 0.05) for %BF measured by other body composition techniques. Although there is no other research reported on the effects of tamoxifen on %BF, this retrospective study indicates that tamoxifen may lead to increase in fat content in women who are subjected to this treatment. We conclude that this observation is probably related to the agonistic oestrogenic effect of Tamoxifen on body fat. To our knowledge this deleterious effect has not been reported before and it should be taken into consideration when comprising different types of anti-oestrogenic drugs. Furthermore, patients should be warned about this side-effect when they are prescribed Tamoxifen.
And on the GH front, there is evidence that GH reduces adipose lipoprotein lipase activity (LPL), and may marginally increase hormone sensitive lipase, but there is a paucity of evidence showing that this translates into increased fat loss: Again we have a case where the biochemistry seems plausible but the real world results just don't pan out:
Regulation of lipoprotein lipase and hormone-sensitive lipase activity and gene expression in adipose and muscle tissue by growth hormone treatment during weight loss in obese patients.
Richelsen B, Pedersen SB, Kristensen K, Borglum JD, Norrelund H, Christiansen JS, Jorgensen JO.
Department of Endocrinology and Metabolism C, Aarhus Amtssygehus, Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.
We investigated the effect of weight loss together with GH treatment on the activity and gene expression of LPL and hormone-sensitive lipase (HSL) in AT and muscle tissue. A very-low-calorie diet ([VLCD] 740 kcal/d) was given to 18 obese women (body mass index [BMI] > 35 kg/m2) and half of them were treated with GH (0.04 IU/kg) for 4 weeks in a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled study. Subcutaneous fat and muscle biopsies were taken before and after 4 weeks. Weight loss after 4 weeks was similar in the 2 groups, with a reduction of 4.5% (placebo) and 4.6% (GH) and a reduction of FM by 7.4% and 9.0% ([NS] nonsignificant). The weight loss resulted in a small and NS reduction of AT-LPL activity by 20% +/- 12% in the placebo group, but in the GH group, AT-LPL was significantly reduced by 65% +/- 8% (P < .01). Muscle LPL (M-LPL) activity was not affected by the weight loss alone, but a significant reduction was observed in the GH group (20.4% +/- 10%, P < .05). AT-HSL activity was significantly enhanced after weight loss, but GH had no additional effect on this minor increment. This is in accordance with the finding that the increment in free fatty acid (FFA) after weight loss was similar in the 2 groups. GH treatment was associated with a significant reduction of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol (P < .05). In conclusion, GH significantly inhibited AT-LPL activity but had no additional effect on the hypocaloric-induced loss of FM, indicating that under such circumstances, AT-LPL does not directly regulate adipose tissue mass. GH was not found to have opposite effects on the activity of LPL in adipose tissue and muscle, since GH treatment reduced them both (by 65% and 20%, respectively). The VLCD-induced weight loss was associated with a minor enhanced activity of AT-HSL with no independent effect of GH. Thus, concerning body weight, FM, and lipolytic activity, treatment with GH offers no extra benefits during a VLCD for 4 weeks.
Let's just say this whole area of supplementation is still very controversial. I mean, for instance, tamoxifen also decreases LPL activity but leads to an overall INCREASE in fat mass in some women.
One thing to keep in mind with all of this science (and pseudo-science) is that obese and post menopausal women may not respond the same as young, very lean weight training females.
Body composition measurements using DXA and other techniques in tamoxifen-treated patients.
Ali PA, al-Ghorabie FH, Evans CJ, el-Sharkawi AM, Hancock DA.
Department of Medical Physics and Radiotherapy, Singleton Hospital, Swansea, U.K.
Tamoxifen is an anti-oestrogenic drug which is widely used in the treatment of patients with breast cancer. There is increasing interest in using the drug both for benign breast disease and as a chemo-preventative agent of the drug in women at high risk of breast cancer. Despite the fact that the acute side-effects of the drug are few, its agonistic and antagonistic oestrogenic effects are not fully known and may have some undesirable effects for patients treated with the drug for several years. A number of studies carried out recently indicate a varying degree of change in bone mineral content following treatment with tamoxifen. These studies concentrated mainly on bone mineral density measurements only and non of them reported the effects of tamoxifen on lean body mass and fat mass. In this study we measured lean body mass and fat mass in tamoxifen-treated females and a comparison group to determine the difference between the two groups. Twenty-six women receiving tamoxifen (20 mg/d) have participated in this study. The control group comprised 31 healthy women of a similar age. Total body bone mineral (TBBM) was measured using a dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DXA) (Hologic INV., Waltham, U.S.A.). Similarly, regional and total body soft tissue (lean and fat tissue) were measured using the DXA system. In addition to DXA measurements, percentage body fat (%BF) was measured using total body potassium counting (TBK), skinfold anthropometry (SF), infrared interactance (i.r.) and bioelectric impedance analysis (BIA). Results from DXA alone showed that there were no significant differences between the two groups for TBBM, regional and total body lean tissue mass. However, there was a significant difference between the two groups (P < 0.05) for %BF measurement. Similarly there was a significant difference between the two groups (P < 0.05) for %BF measured by other body composition techniques. Although there is no other research reported on the effects of tamoxifen on %BF, this retrospective study indicates that tamoxifen may lead to increase in fat content in women who are subjected to this treatment. We conclude that this observation is probably related to the agonistic oestrogenic effect of Tamoxifen on body fat. To our knowledge this deleterious effect has not been reported before and it should be taken into consideration when comprising different types of anti-oestrogenic drugs. Furthermore, patients should be warned about this side-effect when they are prescribed Tamoxifen.
And on the GH front, there is evidence that GH reduces adipose lipoprotein lipase activity (LPL), and may marginally increase hormone sensitive lipase, but there is a paucity of evidence showing that this translates into increased fat loss: Again we have a case where the biochemistry seems plausible but the real world results just don't pan out:
Regulation of lipoprotein lipase and hormone-sensitive lipase activity and gene expression in adipose and muscle tissue by growth hormone treatment during weight loss in obese patients.
Richelsen B, Pedersen SB, Kristensen K, Borglum JD, Norrelund H, Christiansen JS, Jorgensen JO.
Department of Endocrinology and Metabolism C, Aarhus Amtssygehus, Aarhus University Hospital, Denmark.
We investigated the effect of weight loss together with GH treatment on the activity and gene expression of LPL and hormone-sensitive lipase (HSL) in AT and muscle tissue. A very-low-calorie diet ([VLCD] 740 kcal/d) was given to 18 obese women (body mass index [BMI] > 35 kg/m2) and half of them were treated with GH (0.04 IU/kg) for 4 weeks in a randomized double-blind placebo-controlled study. Subcutaneous fat and muscle biopsies were taken before and after 4 weeks. Weight loss after 4 weeks was similar in the 2 groups, with a reduction of 4.5% (placebo) and 4.6% (GH) and a reduction of FM by 7.4% and 9.0% ([NS] nonsignificant). The weight loss resulted in a small and NS reduction of AT-LPL activity by 20% +/- 12% in the placebo group, but in the GH group, AT-LPL was significantly reduced by 65% +/- 8% (P < .01). Muscle LPL (M-LPL) activity was not affected by the weight loss alone, but a significant reduction was observed in the GH group (20.4% +/- 10%, P < .05). AT-HSL activity was significantly enhanced after weight loss, but GH had no additional effect on this minor increment. This is in accordance with the finding that the increment in free fatty acid (FFA) after weight loss was similar in the 2 groups. GH treatment was associated with a significant reduction of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol (P < .05). In conclusion, GH significantly inhibited AT-LPL activity but had no additional effect on the hypocaloric-induced loss of FM, indicating that under such circumstances, AT-LPL does not directly regulate adipose tissue mass. GH was not found to have opposite effects on the activity of LPL in adipose tissue and muscle, since GH treatment reduced them both (by 65% and 20%, respectively). The VLCD-induced weight loss was associated with a minor enhanced activity of AT-HSL with no independent effect of GH. Thus, concerning body weight, FM, and lipolytic activity, treatment with GH offers no extra benefits during a VLCD for 4 weeks.
Let's just say this whole area of supplementation is still very controversial. I mean, for instance, tamoxifen also decreases LPL activity but leads to an overall INCREASE in fat mass in some women.
One thing to keep in mind with all of this science (and pseudo-science) is that obese and post menopausal women may not respond the same as young, very lean weight training females.
Sassy69
New member
Great post MS! After my brief conversation with my OB GYN about tamox and also other conversations I've had with other doctors, the medical community is WAAYYYY behind in research when it comes to "non traditional" uses for meds - e.g. perfomance enhancing stuff. Information and studies with regard to the bodybuilding community are very limited and even more so for application to women. I guess its up to places like Elite to not provide definitive information (because we are not endorses by the AMA or anything!) but to at least keep as much information, anecodotal or otherwise, circulating, but still approach it with the understanding that it isn't proven fact and only experience and conjecture.
This is a great thread!
This is a great thread!
macrophage69alpha
New member
for those still looking for yohimbine hcl
it is now available in a premix : yohimburn
with respect to estrogen agonist/antagonists like nolvadex- the problem lies in the fact that in many tissues they act like estrogen- oddly this seems to vary somewhat between individuals- so in some it may help with fat loss in others it may hinder it.
it is now available in a premix : yohimburn
with respect to estrogen agonist/antagonists like nolvadex- the problem lies in the fact that in many tissues they act like estrogen- oddly this seems to vary somewhat between individuals- so in some it may help with fat loss in others it may hinder it.
NubianBeauty
Banned
WOW!!! Very informative thread!
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