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lol....watch this fight.
- Thread starter sorerotators
- Start date
MikeMartial
New member
It seemed to me he (Kung Fu guy) was just flailing his fists and got lucky and wholloped him with a haymaker.
Hard to tell from the angle/quality of the clip, though.
Any Kung Fu practitioners care to comment?
Hard to tell from the angle/quality of the clip, though.
Any Kung Fu practitioners care to comment?
Djimbe
New member
Now that I think about it it ALSO Illustrates how even a LITTLE bit of MA training will do WELL against someone that knows NOTHING !
I mean , MOST ppl just DONT know how to fight !
I think that as big a newbie as that kid was he pretty much proves that you dont have to be a freaking Gracie to defend yourself in a Streetfight , and that "Kung Fu" DOES work !
oh , and the Hand Positioning that Undertow503 was talking about (wich IS a fave of Choi Li Fut practitioners) is referred to as the "Phoenix Eye Fist" . And the "Wildness" or "sloppieness" with wich it was thrown does not make it any more a BNoxers hook than it makes it a Choke hold .
I mean , MOST ppl just DONT know how to fight !
I think that as big a newbie as that kid was he pretty much proves that you dont have to be a freaking Gracie to defend yourself in a Streetfight , and that "Kung Fu" DOES work !
oh , and the Hand Positioning that Undertow503 was talking about (wich IS a fave of Choi Li Fut practitioners) is referred to as the "Phoenix Eye Fist" . And the "Wildness" or "sloppieness" with wich it was thrown does not make it any more a BNoxers hook than it makes it a Choke hold .
Yarg!
Platinum Membership gift from THE BOMB SQUAD!
i respect all arts- before i didnt, but as i got better, i begin to have appretiation for all MAs, but i gotta say that stance is TERRIBLE. granted he knocked the guy down, but i dont know if its a lucky punch, wild swing or just training. his hands are so low leaving his face open to hits and he can also be taken down quite easily in the stance. his counter punches seem to be wild swings and there were no parries or bob and weaves. the punches also seem to be all from the arm, whereas the power of a really good punch comes from the abs- the core of the body. i dont know if hes just a newb or not, but i gotta say that stance is one of the worst ive ever seen.
Djimbe
New member
oh hands down the stance is WRONG for what he thinks he should be using it for ! I laughed my BALLS off watching him try to walk around like that !!!
the Strike , however , actually starts at the floor by digging in with the right foot . The most Obvious movement is in the arm , but again , the kid is a total newbie thats obviously never even sparred for serious before and goes to a McDojo or a "Performance Wushu" ONLY school . If AL you EVER did to "Train" was Shadowboxing then someone jumped you you would probably look equally Goofy .
the Strike , however , actually starts at the floor by digging in with the right foot . The most Obvious movement is in the arm , but again , the kid is a total newbie thats obviously never even sparred for serious before and goes to a McDojo or a "Performance Wushu" ONLY school . If AL you EVER did to "Train" was Shadowboxing then someone jumped you you would probably look equally Goofy .
gjohnson5
New member
No time for katas in a street fight...
Forget all the choreographed movements and stick with the basics. They should be reaction , meaning that you shouldn't have to think about throwing the punch. The person misses with a punch and should "automatically" be hit. Bruce Lee talks about this alot in where skills are practiced to the point of reaction and the stlye turns into more of a philosophy.
yes obviously the kung fu guy was a newbie...
Forget all the choreographed movements and stick with the basics. They should be reaction , meaning that you shouldn't have to think about throwing the punch. The person misses with a punch and should "automatically" be hit. Bruce Lee talks about this alot in where skills are practiced to the point of reaction and the stlye turns into more of a philosophy.
yes obviously the kung fu guy was a newbie...
Saintinistic
New member
StackIt said:
The same happened to me. cuts off. but its always good to know that wankers get to eat their words.
sorerotators
Well-known member
totally agree. i was laughing my ass off also. didnt know if he was just acting silly or he actually had some training.Djimbe said:
It had a effect on his opponent. He was backpeddling, and seemed to be thinking hmmm wtf did i get into. lol.
Last edited:
Djimbe
New member
Yarg! said:
Wow ! Thats actually a pretty HUGE question , man . Probably hundereds , considering that there are over 400 styles of "Kung Fu" in Practice today .
(At this link in blue Print at the Page Bottom are a BUNCH of References on Technique and Application INCLUDING some things on Stances , and most importantly WHY whats done is Done)
http://www.shouyuliang.com/books/kungfu_elements.shtml
Here is a GREAT reference for anyone interested in learning the Basic Excercises , Stances , and Drills of Internal and External Wushu (Martial Arts)
Kung Fu Elements
Wushu Training Reference and Martial Arts Applications
By Grandmaster Shou-Yu Liang and Wen-Ching Wu
Hardcover - 512 pages
Published December 10, 2001 by Way of the Dragon; ISBN: 1889659177
Kung Fu Elements - Wushu Training and Martial Arts Application Manual, is the Wushu training manual that martial artists have long awaited. Over 20 years in the making, it is the first of its kind in the English language. It contains the essence and elements of both Internal and External Styles of Wushu and is an invaluable training reference for any instructor or dedicated student of any style of martial arts! This book contains seven chapters, plus an extensive glossary, including:
Classifications of Wushu styles, history, and philosophy
Traditional methods for building a strong foundation
Techniques for developing powerful kicks
Sanshou fighting applications and combinations
Effective uses of grappling (Qinna) and takedown (Shuaijiao) techniques
Iron Sand Palm training and Cavity Press (Dianxue)
Internal Strength, Light Body, and many other Kung Fu attainment methods
A Glossary of Wushu styles, practitioners, and terms
Kung Fu Elements includes the training methods used by ancient Wushu masters to achieve great heights. With this book at your finger tips and your desire to excel, you too can achieve great heights in your martial arts training!
Oh HELL no ! Its Transitional , at best . Its good for Counter-Kicking the Planted leg of a kicker , or to throw the Sidekick out of at all ... it has other uses , but those are the best , honestly . You cant stay in it too long or your opponent can get your back relatively easily . Stances are basically
Umm , at the highest levels Ive noted that most of the ppl in what I consider the "Best Styles" fight facing STRAIGHT at the opponent , weight evenly distributed or 100/0 0/100 when in motion . But stances themselves are Situational . you sont want to be 50/50 when some wrestler is trying a takedown , you would prefer to be in a 0/100 with your knee aimed at the guy and all your Weight on your Front leg so that he has to try and Curl i to get you off your Feet , and so that by the act of going at your Legs he puts his head and Spine in your hands like a ball for a Ready Neck Compression , or so that you can "Bulldog" him like you would a Steer in a Rodeo . You spin a guys chin SUDDDENLY tward the ceiling and he is DONE shooting on you , trust me . But as great as it wol be against Dan Severn I wouldnt want to be stuck in that stance while Tua was launching an Uppercut at my ass !!!
Yarg!
Platinum Membership gift from THE BOMB SQUAD!
ahh i see. so what is the reason for adopting stances like this? low to the ground being able to dodge punches better? intimidation of the opponents? more power to punches? sry i take muay thai and bjj , some kali so i know very little if anything about KF.
Djimbe
New member
Yarg! said:
Again , its going to depend on the Individual stance , you know ? AND the individual situation ! Some are just to make you Stronger , remember , no Golds Gym back then , and even still weight training dosent give you the same KIND of strength . Some are for Power Generation/Structure , like the Bow & Arrow Stance it makes a STRAIGHT line for ALL your muscles into your Opponent from the Earth ! Holding Low Postures makes for a kind of stability (I shy from the word "balance") and Power generation that Weights just do not . Have you ever tried Yoga or Pillates ?
BEING low to the ground itself makes one harder to Upend/Tackle , and if youre Rising from the earth youre adding more power to your Strikes , yes . Also having your Center Of Gravity lower than your opposition makes it easier to Excecute a throw and makes it harder to BE thrown .
No , I dont think anyone ever thought about it being "Intimidating" , sorry .
You Strong Enough ?
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v4n4/v4n4a7.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v1n3/v1n3a3.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v3n2/v3n2a4.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v2n2/v2n2a5.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v1n6/v1n6a4.shtml
STABILITY , PEOPLE !!! :
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v1n1/v1n1a5.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v3n3/v3n3a5.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v3n4/v3n4a5.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v3n5/v3n5a5.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v3n6/v3n6a5.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v2n2/v2n2a5.shtml
Why does that stuff have Goofy Names ? :
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v4n6/v4n6a4.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v5n1/v5n1a5.shtml
Bring it all together :
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v2n6/v2n6a4.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v3n1/v3n1a6.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v3n2/v3n2a5.shtml
Basics :
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v2n4/v2n4a6.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v2n5/v2n5a5.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v3n5/v3n5a4.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v3n6/v3n6a4.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v1n1/v1n1a4.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v4n5/v4n5a4.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v4n4/v4n4a4.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v4n1/v4n1a6.shtml
http://www.shouyuliang.com/newsletter/v3n6/v3n6a6.shtml
Hey , you can only know what you know , right ? but I honesly encourage you to look into CMAs more , especialy as you Age . ANd Im not talking out of my Butt , I take as much time as I can to study/train in Muay Thai and other systems whenever the Opportunity presents itself ! Its ALWAYS good to know more about the body and WHY what is done is done .
Yarg!
Platinum Membership gift from THE BOMB SQUAD!
definately, i definately want to broaden my horizons later on in life. i want to take boxing along with muay thai, and submission wrestling along with bjj. then i want to get atleast 2 yrs in kali/escrima/arnis w,e you want to call it. then atleast 3 yrs of JKD, and as i grow older, akido/aido, to just chill out and then as im about to kick the bucket, ill take tai chi so i can be at peace, control my breathing and be calm and collect about all the people i have maimed in my younger years. 
Djimbe
New member
Yarg! said:
AAARRGGGHH !!!
Why is EVERYONE in better Locations than I am ?!?!?!?
Its Three Hours EACH WAY to my Instructor in NYC !
Youre actualy near what I consider one of the top 5 CMA schools in NA , possibly also the Planet . Ironically this is also the one I keep linking you to in this thread ! The guy is TRULY HEAD AND SHOULDERS above the crowd (ANY crowd) when it comes to Takedowns , Slams , Throws , and Standing Grappling ! He and his students are MONSTERS at throws - they elevate it to the level of Art . I once watched his Student's Student throw more than 50 Opponents for Victory in a Full Contact tournament . His kids tend to teach the Bulk of the classes , but as you move up in skill level you put your hands on him more and more over time .
Honestly if youre thinking about taking Muay Thai and Boxing , why not look into San Shou Training ? It has all the Benifits of Muay Thai , AND it has the added Bonus o a FULLY INTEGRATED Takedown programme , wich makes Transitioning to the Ground game FAR smoother in the end . not only that but the Sidekick in San Shou has been shown to be a DEVASTATING weapon against Muay Thai in the past . Its simply a more complete game , and woul better serve you as an All-Around fighter if you really wanted to do Pride or K-1 later on in life . And there are some DECENT Muay Thai instructors in VC , but NO ONE at THIS level is running a school
http://www.shouyuliang.com/classes/sanshou_rules.shtml.
Shou-Yu Liang Wushu Taiji Qigong Institute
220 Jackson Avenue
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
V6A 3B3
Office: 604.716.8580
FAX: 604.273.3128
Main Training Hall: 604.255.5149
(during normally scheduled classes only)
Yarg!
Platinum Membership gift from THE BOMB SQUAD!
the reason i didnt go with a CMA first was , lets face, alot of traditional shit are scams or mcdojos. i saw this mantis kungfu and was not impressed at all. however, san shou, this i like. i think ill check itout. i can still take muay thai at my school cuz i pay for 5 lessons per week and i can use any 5 i want. so someweeks i can do more striking and the other weeks,more ground work, or 2/3 or 3/2, etc. this place is only 50 bucks more, and about 30 mins from me, so im thinking of going.alot of the eastern stuff is also principle over practicality, but san shou seems to be the most no-nonsense of all. throwing, stricking , kicking, and takedowns. this will improve my game overall, i think ill attend starting next month. thanks.
san shou is pretty crazy i havent seen much of the vids of competitions or what not but it looks cool as hell..
i really like styles that are 'sport based' judo/wrestling/ju jitsu/sambo/etc
i really feel that the motivation to succeed in competition will greatly accelerate your learning curve
good luck
i really like styles that are 'sport based' judo/wrestling/ju jitsu/sambo/etc
i really feel that the motivation to succeed in competition will greatly accelerate your learning curve
good luck
Yarg!
Platinum Membership gift from THE BOMB SQUAD!
speaking of which ihave a comp coming up in october. nothing too big, just a grappling tourney. it will be a great learning experience. i may be new, but my guard is friggin awesome. however, i still have ALOT to learn for my side control, and guard passes. 
Djimbe
New member
Yarg! said:
Ive never been one to deny the amount of Scam Artists in MA schools . Chinese ones are as Rife with them as Korean ones are , thats for sure . but thats not about the "Styles" themselves , its about the assholes running the scams *AGHEM* I mean , "Schools"
Was THIS :
Jack Wong
#116 12465 - 82nd Ave.
Surrey, B.C. Canada V3W 3E8 (map)
http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/TraditionalKungFu/webpage.html
Chen's Style Tai Chi
Praying Mantis
The guy that you went to see ? Hes the only Mantis practitioner of any note that Pops up on my radar , but Ive never visited his school as of yet .
Speaking of wich , I mean , its the 3rd largest city in Canada and there arent a Dozen practitioners of NOTE there at all ! Considering the Chinese population there thats SAYING something .
Heres my list :
Hsi Jia Jun
BajiQuan
Bagua Zhang
Tai Chi Chuan
Baji Lance
Tan Tui
http://www.psycorps.com/KungFu/YHhome.html
Liang Shouyu
7951 No4 Road
Richmond, BC, CANADA V6Y 2T4
(604) 273-9648
HeBei Hsing I
Baguazhang
Tai Chi Chuan
Chi Gung
Victor Sheng Lung Fu
1440 East 20th Avenue
Vancouver, BC, CANADA
(604) 879-1449
www.fustyle.com
[email protected]
Baguazhang
Xingyiquan
Tai Chi Chuan
Alex Wang
3314 Venables St.
Vancouver, BC, CANADA
(604) 251-1809
Baguazhang
Yang Guo Tai
2959 Grant Street
Vancouver, BC, CANADA
(604) 216-0106
Baguazhang
Andrea Falk
755 Pandora Avenue
Victoria, BC, CANADA V8T 4W9
(250) 886-6711
[email protected]
www.thewushucentre.ca
Xingyiquan
Baguazhang
Michael Smith
8511 #2 Rd.
Richmond, BC, CANADA
(604) 241-0172
Baguazhang
Sounds like a Plan .
Djimbe
New member
I honestly think that that is just in the Representation . San Shou/San Da are HONESTLY just Rulesets , man . Just like a Boxer can compete in MMA so can a Taiji , Bagua , Mantis , Muay Thay , Taekwondo , Shotokahn , or Xingyi practitioner compete in San Shou rules . Heck , the STYLE that youre learning will probably be an "Internals MMA" blend of Xingyi and Bagua with a touch of Taijiquan thrown in . the teacher there LITERALLY WROTE THE BOOK - called in Bagua Circles "The Blue Bible" - on both arts , and on the art of the Takedown . And in THEIR rules you only have TWO SECONDS to get the Throw , so none of that Struggling that youre used to seeing - your technique MUST be Refined to perfection for it to count for a score .
I have a friend - initially VERY Opposed to both Unarmed MA AND CMA - that joined my school , and about 9 months went by between when I could not Train there due to some family Hardships , and after seeing him anew it was like he was a different MAN ! His Posture , Balance , and sense of personal , well "Grace" (?) were SO VERY Improved that it was unbelievable that this was the same Collegiate Wrestler that I had seen Struggling with his first 3 months of training ! Its not about methodology , because my instructor is ALL about teaching Principle first , then Movement (as in Co-Ordination/Gross Motor Skills) and only THEN moving on to non-Co-Op drilling and so on , his opinion being that you cant really "create On The Fly" unless you know WHY youre doing what youre doing , and that if you dont know the Science behind it you simply wont BELIEVE in it , and thus you will instinctually revert to what he refers to as "Stupid Punching" or "Idiot Boxing" !
Here is what Muay Thai Kru/champion Brooks Miller (AKA Kuhn Kao Charaud) whom started his career studying under "Master K" whom is the Resident Muay Thai instructor at Renzo Gracies school in NYC , was the VA State Director of the USMTA from 1994-1997 , and was certified as an amateur Muay Thai judge in 1995 . Brooks was certified as a SuriyaSak Muay Thai instructor by Master K in 1997 , and since youre a BJJ freak you might like to know that he taught at (Author of The Grappling Blueprint) Lloyd Irvins Martial Arts Academy (1998-2000) , is currently training under Master Bumrong "Danny" Prawatsrichai whom had more than 275 victories in his ring Career , and was undsputed Champion at Lumpinee stadium twice AND Radjadamnern Stadium Champion twice in his weight class .
I tell you all of this so that you KNOW that the Following is NOT the words of some CMA Fanatic , nor are they that of someone that has no Judgement or asessment of the Fighting arts .
Quick background: I've been studying MA's for about 15 years or so, 12 of which have been deveoted almost entirely to Muay Thai and Boxing (with a little submission grappling thrown in).
I went with Djimbe and Tigerfly to see Master Chan's class after fighting on Friday night. I was introduced to Master Chan who is an extremely nice guy. Very respectful and a great sense of humor. He worked with me to the side of his class for a little bit to show me some of what he teaches is and how he defends/counters boxing and kicks.
My observations:
It is important to state that the few drills that I performed with Master Chan were prearranged drills. We each knew what the 'attacker' was going to do first, though we each reacted (countered) without it being 'prearranged'. Also, we only did about 3 or 4 drills for about 10 minutes. I had just finished fighting in the "Mayhem on Mulberry Street" Muay Thai event, and I needed to get back to the arena to meet with my coaches and teammates.
Master Chan showed me some punch defenses. Master Chan is blazingly fast. I threw a punch and he slipped my punch and had clocked me in the jaw before it had registered that he had moved.
It was very obvious to me that he was holding back. When he hit me, he never followed through, but stopped as his strike as he placed it. Despite the fact that Master Chan was not following through on his strikes, I could feel the power behind them. We all know the difference between someone striking you correctly where it feels "solid" vs. when someone hits you wrong and it feels weak and soft. Despite Chan holding back, you could feel how solid the strikes were.
Also, when he was performing counter strikes vs. my boxing, he repeatedly was hitting the same spot on my arm over and over. Very precise, and he successfully "frogged" my arm each time.
Master Chan invited me to throw roundhouse kicks at him. He had an interesting defense where he angled his arm in such a manner that my kick kinda "slid" up his arm into his other hand to make for what felt like a very soft block. It felt like I was kicking a pillow, even though I was laying into the kicks pretty hard. (not full power, but about 70%). I only moved him with one kick.
Now, obviously my experience with Master Chan is very limited. We weren't going hard, We weren't doing anything "for real" We were just playing. What I can say is that my impression is that Master Chan is amazing. I have worked with many talented martial artists over the years, and I really feel that Master Chan is legit, and that what he is teaching is legit.
So like I said , its not the STYLES that have anything wrong with them , its the finding of a decent TEACHER of them thats the hassle .
And youre near one of the best on the PLANET . Itd be like being in the same city as Rickson , or Rigan Machado , or Royce .
Yarg!
Platinum Membership gift from THE BOMB SQUAD!
nice ill check it out. the grand master's tai chi show is actually in syndication on this channel i can at home. i never watch it though, cuz its tai chi, and thus, kinda boring for me 
. too bad the free fighting/san shou class is only once a week, and for an hour. i hope this is enough. im more interested in the takedown aspect more than anything. taking down ppl then toying on the ground with them with BJJ would be fucking ownage.
. too bad the free fighting/san shou class is only once a week, and for an hour. i hope this is enough. im more interested in the takedown aspect more than anything. taking down ppl then toying on the ground with them with BJJ would be fucking ownage.
Djimbe
New member
Yarg! said:nice ill check it out. the grand master's tai chi show is actually in syndication on this channel i can at home. i never watch it though, cuz its tai chi, and thus, kinda boring for me
Well , like I said , San Shou is NOT a system , its a Ruleset ! The systems that the skils themselves come from will probably be made available to you as you get comfortable with the school and the Evironment . They probably focus on Throwing/Takedowns in the Baguazhang classes , but wichever it is , they will let you know what style(s) the throws come from over time , and you may REALLY find that you like Push Hands training - its a LOT like a Standup version of BJJ Rolling where the way to "Make A Guy Tap" is to Upend your opponent and lay them on their back ! And the most important thing that you learn is how to "Listen" with your body , and not with yoru eyes and ears . It STARTS all gentle and stuff , then you crank it up ...
My point being that the Drilling is really where you learn the mechanics of moves and get them into your skin . San Shou days are big fun , but once a week is more than enough for "Putting It All Together" when talking aobut Standup Training . Heck , if youre going hard enough you should be taking that week to recover ! The fact that most MMA ppl spar TOO often in the stead of working on Drills and Skills . Thats why you have SO many sloppy strikers and so few accurate ones . The guys that all can strike worth a damn are ALL from "Traditional" Backgrounds . Cro Cop , Lidell , whomever . Many of the ppl that are considered the "Best" strikers in MMA circles couldnt hack it as an Amateur Boxer . Just like it takes 10 years to get a BJJ Black Belt it takes YEARS to put together a REAL striking game . And MOST of that time is NOT spent Sparring ! Its spent Shadowboxing , Training with Pads , and doing solo and Partner Drills ! The PROBLEM is that people with the MMA mindset are for some reason willing to accept that it takes 10 years to get your BJJ Black Belt , but for some reason UNwilling to accept that it MIGHT just take that same length of time to master Fighting with , say , Tai Chi (your prior example above) . The real question is ; Why the double standard ?
Yarg!
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i think the reason why there is a supposed double standard is because many ppl who support MMA feel that MMA is the end all solution to fighting. and that a black belt in jiu jitsu will do far more dmg to a 10 yr tai chi guy in a fight. and ppl are feeling that 10 yrs in something like vale tudo will have much great results than 10 yrs in the traditional stuff. i dont nessecarily feel this way, and i respect all the arts. though im sure 10 yrs in any decent martial arts can make you pretty damn potent. the thing is though, you do NOT cross train, your ass is grass. if youre a grappler , with no strikes, youre not a good fighter. if youre a striker with no grappling, youre toast. so on and so fourth. thats why alot of ppl are feeling that 10 rs in vale tudo or shooting is better than stuff like karate because theyre not as well rounded. theres a revolution going on in martial arts man, its changing.the traditional methods are being tossed out the window. bjj/vale tudo/ submission wrestling schools are popping up everywhere. ppl are diving more into arts that focus more on quick easy to learn, devestating moves, rather than long winded histories and meditation sessions. ppl are taking other arts and expanding their horizons. bruce lee was one of the first ppl to adress this: cross train , cross train, cross train. he once told his first student (when asked what can really defeat a martial arts master, after being in awe at bruce's skills), "in order to beat a martial artist of 15 years, you only need to take boxing and wrestling for 1." i think in the next 10 yrs we're gonna see less board breaking and more ppl with awesome strikes , takedowns and ground games. and alot of martial arts disciplines are gonna start adopting things they dont have from other arts- strikes, grappling, etc. it feels great to be young, man. i have the whole world at my finger tips, and especially the rich world of martial arts. theres a revolution going on, and im right in the middle of it. btw, this tai chi program wasnt like a fight program though, it was the breathing , exercise stuff fthat old ppl do, so i couldnt watch it, lol.
Djimbe
New member
Well , if all you are Learning at your Tai Chi school is Meditation , then you wont eer learn to Fight with it . This is true , and its why you need to Research your School and Trainer , not anything wrongwith the SYSTEM ! Its a fact that the two things are Different in Chinese Culture , and yes , the "Fighting" taiji schools ARE more rare than the "Meditative" ones , but thats mostly because its the Lazy way out . Taiji for combat is HARD !
HOWEVER :
Moving slowly alone cannot tell you wether its a Combat school or not . AND I challenge you to TRY all that "Slow Moving Junk" - bet is you cant hold your Arms up afterward ! You cannot move QUICKLY properly if you cannot move SLOWLY properly . Its really that simple .
HOWEVER :
When I was speaking of "Traditional" I was talking about , lets say , Western Boxing . When I was young , a Prospective Boxer walking in to a Boxing gym wouldnt DREAM of Sparring when he walked in the Door . It would be 18 months to two YEARS before facing off against another student . When (many years ago) I traveled to Thailand to train they took up to THREE years before letting the Prospects spar or enter the Ring to Drill . Until that time Boxers would RUN , SKIP ROPE , SHADOWBOX , etc ! You would work SKILLS AND DRILLS !!!
These days , you SO dont see this anymore . You have people sparring the firsat day of class . and frankly , the Era of the Greats is starting to be OVER because of it . Look at guys that had that Training , guys like Ali , Foreman , Toney , Tzu , whittaker , Holyfield ... They arent coming out like that any more ! I see shows like "The Ultimate Fighter" and I want to VOMIT every time someone calls Chris Leben a "Great Striker" - the guy couldnt even keep from smacking the CRAP out of Cotoure when poor Randy had the Ill Fate of holding Focus Mitts for the kid before one Bout ! Sloppy Agression has taken the place of Pop , Placement , and Power (the three P's) And lets NOT talk about Footwork - its nearly a Myth , a seldom-sighted Rumour like hte Loch Ness monster !
Oh :
Theres one REAL FLAW in you logic stream so far ...
Your discussions have evoked the Idea that something simple and easy to learn is superior to something more complex and challenging . Well , it took CENTURIES to develop the gun after the Knife was invented , and its use is FAR more complex . I mean , all you have to do to MAKE a knife is sharpen a bit of metal , and all you have to do to USE one is Poke or Slash , right ? No Ballistics , Loading , Recoil , Sighting , Drawing , Aiming , blah , blah , blah ...
Id STILL never take a Knife to a Gun Fight .
HOWEVER :
Moving slowly alone cannot tell you wether its a Combat school or not . AND I challenge you to TRY all that "Slow Moving Junk" - bet is you cant hold your Arms up afterward ! You cannot move QUICKLY properly if you cannot move SLOWLY properly . Its really that simple .
HOWEVER :
When I was speaking of "Traditional" I was talking about , lets say , Western Boxing . When I was young , a Prospective Boxer walking in to a Boxing gym wouldnt DREAM of Sparring when he walked in the Door . It would be 18 months to two YEARS before facing off against another student . When (many years ago) I traveled to Thailand to train they took up to THREE years before letting the Prospects spar or enter the Ring to Drill . Until that time Boxers would RUN , SKIP ROPE , SHADOWBOX , etc ! You would work SKILLS AND DRILLS !!!
These days , you SO dont see this anymore . You have people sparring the firsat day of class . and frankly , the Era of the Greats is starting to be OVER because of it . Look at guys that had that Training , guys like Ali , Foreman , Toney , Tzu , whittaker , Holyfield ... They arent coming out like that any more ! I see shows like "The Ultimate Fighter" and I want to VOMIT every time someone calls Chris Leben a "Great Striker" - the guy couldnt even keep from smacking the CRAP out of Cotoure when poor Randy had the Ill Fate of holding Focus Mitts for the kid before one Bout ! Sloppy Agression has taken the place of Pop , Placement , and Power (the three P's) And lets NOT talk about Footwork - its nearly a Myth , a seldom-sighted Rumour like hte Loch Ness monster !
Oh :
Theres one REAL FLAW in you logic stream so far ...
Your discussions have evoked the Idea that something simple and easy to learn is superior to something more complex and challenging . Well , it took CENTURIES to develop the gun after the Knife was invented , and its use is FAR more complex . I mean , all you have to do to MAKE a knife is sharpen a bit of metal , and all you have to do to USE one is Poke or Slash , right ? No Ballistics , Loading , Recoil , Sighting , Drawing , Aiming , blah , blah , blah ...
Id STILL never take a Knife to a Gun Fight .
Yarg! said:speaking of which ihave a comp coming up in october. nothing too big, just a grappling tourney. it will be a great learning experience. i may be new, but my guard is friggin awesome. however, i still have ALOT to learn for my side control, and guard passes.
you havn't learned guardpasses yet or your having trouble with them?
Yarg!
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Djimbe said:
dude, i agree with most of your points, but it doesnt matte rhow many yrs it took to make a technique, in the end, if the teacher teaches somethine needlessly complex over something much more simple to execute, the simple move will be superior. the simple technique may have just as much history behind the complex one, but if the person is taught only the complex one , with no drills behind it, and no follow up moves, the practioner can never fully defend himself in a fight. for instance the dreaded kata. kata is complicated, and it is linear. theres no reason why it should exist. now in a fight, youre counting on the person to come at you at the right angle, right height, etc. in boxing it teaches you to jab, cross, hook, uppercut, bob and weave shadow box. its simple to learn yet effective. if the boxer gets attacked, he can adapt and instinctively bob and weave, jab, cross, whatever, its jst much more effective. case in pooint: krav maga. the whole mantra of that system is something easy that comes thru instict and drill is far superior to something needlessly complex that can tire you out in the world.
heres one evidence to support this:
http://library.thinkquest.org/16082/media/techniques/foot/kick5.jpg
vs
http://www.mastersken.com/pages/gallery/1/images/Master Sken roundhouse kick to heavy bag_gif.jpg
i can never see anyone using up the energy or risk using the first kick in a real world situation. bruce lee knew all this, he took the best simplest moves out of loads of systems practised them thru drills and sparring, and threw out soo much useless crap and created one of the most complete arts ever: jeet kun do.
Djimbe
New member
Yarg! said:
No matter HOW good the above SOUNDS on PAPER this statement couldnt be less true in real world application .
FIRSTLY :
lets get down to making ourselves understood . Something being More Complex does NOT mean that it is Slower , Inefficient , or harder to Execute once mastered . While it CAN mean these things it can ALSO mean simply that its harder to COMPREHEND , or to Develop/Master
SECONDLY :
Even if a thing IS more difficult to Execute , that means nothing at all . I can site HUNDEREDS of examples from Sportfighting where the more Complex tech or maneuvre s not only a POSSIBLE way of beating a simpler tech , but the ICONIC or TEXTBOOK way of doing so ! A few Examples ...
Boxing - Getting outjabbed ? Slip and overhand counter .
Boxing - Hook troubling you ? Circle amd Jab (takes 2 feet and an arm)
Muay Thai - If one grabs the opponent around the lower back with both hands, and pushes against his collarbone with his chin he would be performing the trick called Giant Steals The Girl - What does this Stop ? Elbows in the Clinch .
Hell , heres a whole LIST from Muay Thai ! -
SERPENT SNEAKS TO THE OCEAN: Duck under a high-roundhouse kick and side kick your opponents support leg.
TATTOO A WREATH OF FLOWERS: Defend a straight punch by slipping to the inside and spiking your opponents sternum with your elbow (keep your hand on your head for rigidity)
WARLORD THROWS THE LANCE: Defend a straight punch by parrying and stepping towards the outside, and throwing a roundhouse kick across their midsection.
SWAN WITH A BROKEN WING: Defend a straight punch by parrying and stepping to the inside, and throwing an elbow strike into their shoulder to break it.
CUT THE GRASS: Defend a high kick by performing a single-leg takedown on your opponents support leg.
OLD MAN SWEEPS THE FLOOR: Defend against a kick by stepping sideways and throwing a roundhouse kick to your opponents support leg.
MONKEY PRESENTS THE RING: Defend a straight punch by slipping towards the inside and throwing a double uppercut to your opponents chin.
BREAK THE ELEPHANTS TRUNK: Trap opponents kick and throw an axe elbow to his thigh.
AND my PERSONAL fave (WAY Complicated , but it works !) :
MONKEY BEATS THE GIANT: Trap opponents kick, then spin to the inside, kneeling and turning your back on your opponent so that you can then throw him over your shoulder by his leg.
Realise that the above is JUST a Tangent to make a point - I dont think that Complexity needs to mean Inneficiency OR Inneficacy .
WHAT ??? Thats CRAZY TALK !!!
Of COURSE you have to Have all that stuff ! What EVER gave you the NOTION that it WASNT there ??? These are Fighting SYSTEMS and they are WELL Integrated - ALL of them SO well Integrated that they ALL have Weapons Training that Ill pit againt Kali/Escrima any day ! My Classtime is spent 75-80% doing Active Partner Drills or Sparring . The REST of the time spent learning my "Homework" most of wich is learning how to Shadowbox (Forms) , how to STAND and MOVE and even BREATHE properly . Well that and learning the Principles of WHY Im doing what Im doing , but much of that is discussed while doing it .
We only dread that wich we do not understand , my man .
First , lets SAY that you used the word "FORMS" every time you said "KATA" . "Forms" is the DIRECT translation of the word in its intended state , and things are less alien when you say them in your own language , and therefore easier to Digest .
SOME forms are overly Complicated .
Tai Chi only has 13 Postures . The LONGEST version of its form has 108 movements . So you understand this is just REPITITION of the same 13 Postures . This is so that every Posture can be Demonstrated from every Level (Mid , Low , High) , Angle , and from both the Right and Left handed sides , AND so that you know how to transition (Link) the body from any one Position/Angle/Side to any other . Baguazhang has 8 Palms . The NAME of the system translates into "The Eight Trigram Palms" or "The 8 Directions Boxing" The SIMPLICITY of the system being that there are ONLY 8 ways you can hold (align) your hand , and really only 8 ways you can face , and if you master THOSE moements and their Combinations you have mastered yourself . There are ONLY 64 possible combinations , really . The other aspect of the system is its Footwork , wich literally RETEACHES you how to walk properly . Xingyiquan had FIVE "elements" (Enrergy Types you can hit with) And (at most complex) 12 "Animals" (Tactical Applications for said types of Power) . Thats 17 things . Yeah , you practice them at diffeent Levels and Angles and Right and Left Handed and Whatnot , but its really still JUST 17 things .
A STYLE MIGHT be Linear . And , then again , it might not . Baguazhangs CHIEF practice is called "Walking The Circle" and Taiji dosent have a straight line IN it ! there is ALWAYS a Curve in Taiji ! Systems like Goju Ryu are also Circular , and in (Good) Wing Chun and Xingyiquan , even though the systems LOOK oh SO VERY Linear , the POWER in them comes from a Spiraling of the Limbs that to the Untrained eye is often undetectable , but adds TREMENDOUSLY to the Power and Efficacy of the systems and their bilities to have tremendous power at short distances .
Jack Dempsy hmself said that the MOST Important drill in Boxing is Shadowboxing . Forms Training is how you fuse the moves with your Skin and Bones . Its how you get your Personal Rythym , and its how you develop REAL hitting Power . It teaches you to be Relaxed and Fluid . In Xingyi training all you do is ONE move , then you Drill it right after doing that energy from the form for 10-15 min to get the "feel" of it down . It makes your Practivce more Smooth and Fluid .
The PRIMARY goal in IMA for Forms Training is to teach "Whole Body Power" . A jab is an Arm Punch , it is a movement without muh in the way of body Harmony , or Synchronicity , but its accurate because its easy to Control . one would have MUCH more FORCE if you simply RAN at your opponent from 10 ft and SPRUNG your body into him at the last second , like a Tackle , rignt ? But that would be FAR less accurate and harder to Control , no ? So what is one to do ? You learn , THROUGH FORMS - how to use EVERY attack in your aresenal with such TOTAL co-ordination that you have EVERY Muscle in your WHOLE body behind it , while not moving in such a manner that youre moving Wildly . Even your TOES should ad to the power of EVERY move you make , without overbalancing you . Forms are about Changes of movement and Momentum , and how you deal with such thingsa while Hurtling your Limbs through space . Great Golfers arent Bigger guys or Bodybuilders , theyre ppl with PERFECT FORM . A Great Taiji fighter is like a great Golfer . His power comes NOT from his Body , or Muscles , or ANY Attribute . It comes because he can get his WHOLE body to use ALL its muscles to ONE SINGLE purpose at a Time . You Sink your Weight , you Base out , you turn your knees , swivel your Hips , and rotate your Spine , then you TRANSFER that energy UNBROKEN to the shoulders which must cause the arms to SMOOTHLY arc and then deliver power through the club to the ball . You cant do more Pushups , or more Steroids , and hit any better or Farther . you MUST PERFECT YOUR FORMS .
If a Form is ONLY a Collection of Techniques that you can do perfectly after being shown once then forms ARE Useless . REAL forms Training is like Mastering your Golf Swing . Youre ALWAYS getting better .
Who told you that ? No , you do not enter a Fight with ANY Expectations , and you enter prepared/allowing for any variation .
And Boxing is a SPORT with some Combat applications . But honestly Boxing relies JUST as much on Conditioning and Physical Attributes as it does Science or Physics . Te goal of boxing has NEVER been to Create the most scientifically Sound System of Combat possible ! the goal of Boxing has ALWAYS been Sport , and Entertainment ! The WAY that ppl Boxed has TOTALLY changes since the 1900's and before , when ppl fought Bareknuckles , and fights went upward of 50 rounds ! The punches , Stances , Footwork , Power used , and Stances are ALL different . Im a STUDENT of Boxing History , man . The GOAL of Boxing - hell , the NAME of Boxing - is PUGILISM ! Pugilism at its core connotes a Tough Guy Contest thats ALL about who can Trade Blows and remain Standing . Yeah , in history some guys have some slipping and Dodging going on , but thats really just Self-Preservation - the REAL goal of Boxing is to see a Ward/Gatti fight . Lennox Lewis is BORING . Boxing is NOT a Martial Science . Its a RULESET that ppl tran tward . Its also a SHOW , and the rues are NOT set up to develop the best way to Fight and be safe . Theyre set up to put on the best show .
Krav Maga Uses SRT , and SRT simply does NOT work . Krav Maga is going down the same Road as Aikido , and it sucks for some of the same reasons . Krave Maga is the EPITOME of Expecting your Opponent to do something Pre-Arranged . YOu have obviously not seen as many KM schools train as I have . ANY time the trainer says "When A Guy Does THIS with His Weapon ..." you know its BSMA . The ONLY ppl that claim KM that I know that are any good are either already great at some other skillset , or actually TEACHING a different skillset and CALLING it KM (most common is Boxing + Judo that I have seen)
Thats because the kick - AS YOU SEE IT - is not SUPPOSED to be "Used" ! Its a Training Excercise ! I do a few dozen of thoise every Morning right like Pushups and Situps ! The Idea is that if you can kick that highwith Speed and Power then you can kick LOWER at a FAR fasater rate . Its ALSO a FACT that if youre THAT Flexible then you are SO much MORE flexible than you will EVER need to be in any REAL encounter or "Cold" adn without Stretching . Its a training Paradigm thats been proven to work time and time again . Wing Chun has a STATED RULE : "No Kicks Above The Waist" . Its actually a RULE of the style ! And YET - There is a section of the second form where you do a SERIES of them JUST LIKE THAT ! But no one with any SENSE would try that crap in a FIGHT !
Jeet Kune Do is one of the most Useless Arts ever . Please , lets Keep Bruce Lee Discussions to the Topic that I made for you with your name in it about Bruce Lee . Bruce Lee was a Halfasser , Self-Important , And lazy . Note that as famous as Bruce was , and as many "Followers as he has none of his students , nor any of his STUDENTS students EVER won ANY Full Contact Title in ANY country that ANYONE takes seriously using the actual Fighting Methods that he taught . Even Dan Inosanto - BL's "Star Pupil" is teaching Muey Thai + Machado BJJ now .
