Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply
puritysourcelabs
UGL OZ
UGFREAK
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplypuritysourcelabsUGL OZUGFREAK

Liver Helper Myth Destroyed

One of the most informative threads posted in quite a while. Good debate with minimal name calling. Maybe there is still hope......

While I'm not ready to throw the MT in the trash, I will certainly make sure that I add the Tyler's along with the ALA.

Maybe Tyler's while on and MT off-cycle?
 
Does it matter if you take the 600mg in the morning/at night/all at once/broken up during the day? Any thoughts? Thanks! :)
 
TheGame_620 said:
Thanks Fonz . YOu jsut inspired me to buy 1000 pills of ALA from kilo. What dosage of ALA would you recommeng with 25mgs of dbol?
And by the way your right about the price why buy milk thistle when you can get ala for about the same
STOP - not kilosports again

Cheapest ALA (Alpha Lipoic Acid)

Beyond-A-Century
https://www2.acadia.net/cgi-bin/BAC/web_store.cgi
Enter keywords in search: LIPOIC ACID, ALPHA PURE
50 grams (bulk powder) / Price: $19.00 / 3.8 cents per 100mg
Daily Dosage 900mg = 34.2 cents

http://nutriteam.com/alpha.htm
180 (300mg) caps = 54grams / Price: $28.95 / 5.36 cents per 100 mg
Daily Dosage 900mg (3 caps) = 48.24 cents

https://www.kilosports.com :
1000 (100mg) caps = 100grams / Price: $69.95 / 6.99 cents per 100 mg
Daily Dosage 900mg (9 caps) = 62.91 cents

NOTE: Beyond-A-Century also has best price (i've located so far) for GLA (gamma linolenic acid) from Borage oil. 60 gel caps, $12.00 - (each cap contains 240mg GLA) ITEM Code 710.0

NOTE: NOTE: Beyond-A-Century also carries CAP-M-QUICK $10.20 for making own capsules (2nd best price i've located) ITEM Code 704
 
ALA and Tyler will take care of it. Milk Thistle is more of a BB Myth than anything else. The studies on it are very weak and do not apply to using 17aa meds they are for liver protection from poison mushrooms. I posted this the other day.

BioDrugs 2001;15(7):465-89 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


Silymarin: a review of its clinical properties in the management of hepatic disorders.

Wellington K, Jarvis B.

Adis International Limited, Auckland, New Zealand. [email protected]

The mechanisms of action of silymarin involve different biochemical events, such as the stimulation of the synthetic rate of ribosomal RNA (rRNA) species through stimulation of polymerase I and rRNA transcription, protecting the cell membrane from radical-induced damage and blockage of the uptake of toxins such as alpha-amanitin. Studies in patients with liver disease have shown that silymarin increases superoxide dismutase (SOD) activity of lymphocytes and erythrocytes, as well as the expression of SOD in lymphocytes. Silymarin has also been shown to increase patient serum levels of glutathione and glutathione peroxidase. Silybin 20 to 48 mg/kg/day has shown promise as a clinical antidote to acute Amanita (deathcap mushroom) poisoning. Primary efficacy data from 3 trials which examined the therapeutic potential of silymarin in patients with cirrhosis, and included patient survival as an end-point, demonstrated that silymarin had no significant beneficial effect on patient mortality. However, upon subanalysis, silymarin 420 mg/day had a significantly beneficial effect on patient survival rate (compared with patients receiving placebo) in 1 randomised, double-blind trial in patients with alcoholic cirrhosis. Silymarin 420 mg/day was also shown to improve indices of liver function [AST, ALT, gamma-glutamyl transferase and bilirubin] in patients with liver disease of various aetiology, including those exposed to toxic levels of toluene or xylene; however, it was largely ineffective in patients with viral hepatitis. Reports of adverse events while receiving silymarin therapy are rare. However, there have been accounts of nausea, epigastric discomfort, arthralgia, pruritus, headache and urticaria. Silymarin has also been reported to have possibly caused a mild laxative effect. CONCLUSION: The antioxidant properties of silymarin (a mixture of at least 4 closely related flavonolignans, 60 to 70% of which is a mixture of 2 diastereomers of silybin) have been demonstrated in vitro and in animal and human studies. However, studies evaluating relevant health outcomes associated with these properties are lacking. Although silymarin has low oral absorption, oral dosages of 420 mg/day have shown some therapeutic potential, with good tolerability, in the treatment of alcoholic cirrhosis. Moreover, silybin 20 to 48 mg/kg/day has shown promise as an antidote for acute mushroom poisoning by Amanita phalloides; however, further studies paying attention to the amount of ingested mushroom and time elapsed before administration of treatment are needed to clarify its role in this indication. Studies in patients with the early onset of liver disease may demonstrate the liver regeneration properties that silymarin is promoted as possessing.

Drugs 2001;61(14):2035-63 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut


The use of silymarin in the treatment of liver diseases.

Saller R, Meier R, Brignoli R.

Abteilung Naturheilkunde, University Hospital Zurich, Switzerland.

The high prevalence of liver diseases such as chronic hepatitis and cirrhosis underscores the need for efficient and cost-effective treatments. The potential benefit of silymarin (extracted from the seeds of Silybum marianum or milk thistle) in the treatment of liver diseases remains a controversial issue. Therefore, the objective of this review is to assess the clinical efficacy and safety of silymarin by application of systematic approach. 525 references were found in the databases, of which 84 papers were retained for closer examination and 36 were deemed suitable for detailed analysis. Silymarin has metabolic and cell-regulating effects at concentrations found in clinical conditions, namely carrier-mediated regulation of cell membrane permeability, inhibition of the 5-lipoxygenase pathway, scavenging of reactive oxygen species (ROS) of the R-OH type and action on DNA-expression, for example, via suppression of nuclear factor (NF)-kappaB. Pooled data from case record studies involving 452 patients with Amanita phalloides poisoning show a highly significant difference in mortality in favour of silibinin [the main isomer contained in silymarin] (mortality 9.8% vs 18.3% with standard treatment; p < 0.01). The available trials in patients with toxic (e.g. solvents) or iatrogenic (e.g. antispychotic or tacrine) liver diseases, which are mostly outdated and underpowered, do not enable any valid conclusions to be drawn on the value of silymarin. The exception is an improved clinical tolerance of tacrine. In spite of some positive results in patients with acute viral hepatitis, no formally valid conclusion can be drawn regarding the value of silymarin in the treatment of these infections. Although there were no clinical end-points in the four trials considered in patients with alcoholic liver disease, histological findings were reported as improved in two out of two trials, improvement of prothrombin time was significant (two trials pooled) and liver transaminase levels were consistently lower in the silymarin-treated groups. Therefore, silymarin may be of use as an adjuvant in the therapy of alcoholic liver disease. Analysis was performed on five trials with a total of 602 patients with liver cirrhosis. The evidence shows that, compared with placebo, silymarin produces a nonsignificant reduction of total mortality by -4.2% [odds ratio (OR) 0.75 (0.5 - 1.1)]; but that, on the other hand, the use of silymarin leads to a significant reduction in liver-related mortality of-7% [OR: 0.54 (0.3 - 0.9); p < 0.01]. An individual trial reported a reduction in the number of patients with encephalopathy of -8.7% [p = 0.06). In one study of patients with cirrhosis-related diabetes mellitus, the insulin requirement was reduced by -25% [p < 0.01). We conclude that available evidence suggests that silymarin may play a role in the therapy of [alcoholic) liver cirrhosis. Silymarin is has a good safety record and only rare case reports of gastrointestinal disturbances and allergic skin rashes have been published. This review does not aim to replace future prospective trials aiming to provide the 'final' evidence of the efficacy of silymarin.

I don't agree Panerai. There just doesn't seem to be any evidence it works for what we need it for.
 
Ulter, if you read all the 59 abstracts from articles on PubMed (well, not all of them provide abstracts, but most do) you would see, that Milk Thistle works in many ways, including the ways ALA and Tyler do.
Lack of studies, to prove completely to medical comunity........well, it's just a terminology. You, yourself can see plenty of studies proving benefit of MT to liver. Even in your mushroom abstract they listed a few other ways how MT benefits liver.
Now, all of the studies agreed on safety of Milk Thistle. So, if we lack studies, but we know that it's very safe, why not to use it?
Sorry, but you and Fonz sound like some companies who say that ONLY their supplement can provide results, users look after.
I'm not applying that you guys have any interest in promoting ALA or Tyler, just trying to say, that this discussion is not about who is right and who is wrong, but what is good and what is bad for us. MK is not bad, that's established, how good it is, well, it's pretty good, we know it(58 articles on PubMed), is it really that good, we don't know, lack of studies...so, let's call it a "myth"?
OK, show me large number of studies to prove that Nolvadex is good for bodybuilders...forget breast cancer, let's talk the same language.
Is Nolvadex a "myth"?
 
I didn't read the whole thread, but i will answer you Gman

Gman said:
Why has caused you to form this opinion? Medical research has shown Milk Thistle to be effective.. just curious.

Gman

Fonz is right (usually is, it's dangerous to say always:) )

I used milk tistle at a rate of 4500 mgr/day (15 caps of 300 mgr).
Liver values where up (as already posted on EF some time ago).
Now when doing L-reduced Glutathione liver values come back to normal even when doing 600 mgr Winny (injected... give me a break) and 350 mgr Ox, so almost 1 gr of 17AA's. What more do you want.

So yes, milk tistle is a waste of money. It just isn't strong enough.

True some liver protectors might interfere with the efficiency of the roids taken at the same time, but not that much. If this worries you take a bit more roids to compensate but protecting your liver should be the main concern here.
 
Panerai, There may be some benefit to milk thistle but certainly not enough to have guys taking it thinking that it will safegaurd them against liver damage or high liver values. It won't. Look at Jeff_rys post, I found out the same thing he did, much the same way when my values were sky high on winny/ox/accutane last year while using a ton of Milk Thistle. That's when I learned about Tyler.
Let me also point out the people who make Tyler aren't taking any chances because they put Milk Thistle in Tyler. So they believe there may be some benefit. I am saying what Fonz is saying, that people are being mislead thinking Milk Thistle will protect them. It won't.
 
I have used beyond a century for many many years, they are knowledgeable, friendly, and really care about what they sell. Plus they are inexpensive!
 
Top Bottom