Liver Helper Myth Destroyed

[Silent Method]

Jeff_rys, my statement was not meant as a slam, merely an attempt to refute your point, more correctly, to establish the pure irrelevance of it. An example, how do you feel about creatine? Does it work? Most people will say yes. Many people will say no. Science will support the fact that creatine supplementation does result in some benefit for some people. For some, it will show no benefit. Now, imagine trying to assess the value of creatine based on one persons personal experience. This is what I feel you are doing, and yes, this does strike a nerve with me. Your judgment in this matter is based purely on the merit of one case - your own. So no, your personal experience is not enough for me regarding this matter.

Your advice to use something stronger than milk thistle for liver protection in an AAS user is wellfounded. I agree 100%. With much better options, one would be a fool to rely on milk thistle only. You state "Milk Tistle is maybe good to use in normal life where roids are not used." Very true. However, I will add that "milk thistle is maybe good to use in normal life where roids" are used.

What is this, the 135th post in this thread? Maybe the 50th time I've felt I've had to state that I have seen no evidence validating the statements in post #1 of this thread.

Jboldman, I'm thinking of changing my sig to "do you have any proof of that?" Maybe even trade marking it. If what you said about Fonz's motivation for starting this thread with such statements is true, it sheds a whole new light on the type of circular reasoning exhibited within this thread.

 

[Bubba]

Great post. I enjoyed it.
Flushing with water is the best way.

 

[Jeff_rys]

no Silent, i still will not give in

Creatine can have a SMALL benefit as milk tistle. But would you choose Creatine over roids (hahaha). So way take milk tistle and hope that you get the benefit out of it. It's like taking prohormones and hoping this will beat HGH (would be nice for the cost).
As for the Creatine, it lets you retain water in the muscle so you get the impression of gaining muscle. Taking a heavy dosage each day is great for killing your kidneys. So no, i will never take Creatine again either.

What you should do (if not already done) is : do a cycle of two 17 aa's, for 6 weeks and take one gram of milk tistle. Then get a blood test. Then go at it for another 6 weeks, this time use ALA with Tylers Detox (both products are easy to get in the US), also one gram a day. Another blood test will indicate what gives best results. Post the results here and proof you are right.
If you do not want to do this, then stop posting.

 

[Fonz]

LOL...This thread is starting to feel like a merry-go-round..

These are the facts:

Lets say a person uses: 100mg Winstrol/day


And uses 5 of the following combinations.

1) ALA

2) ALA+Tylers

3) Milk Thistle

4) ALA+Tylers+Milk Thistle

5) ALA+Milk Thistle

Ok,lets see if we can all follow this simple explanation.

The LOWEST LIVER ENZYME VALUES WILL BE SEEN:
(From lowest to highest)

1. ALA+Tylers and ALA+Tylers+Milk Thistle

2. ALA and ALA+Milk Thistle

3. Milk Thistle.

Now, using some more of that grey matter we have up there...
(hopefully anyways..)


ALA+Tylers = ALA+Tylers+Milk Thistle

and

ALA = ALA+Milk Thistle

So, in other words if either ALA or ALA+Tylers is
being used MILK THISTLE DOES NOT YIELD
ABSOLUTELY ANY BENEFIT!!!!

Has this penetrated your mental processes enough for
you to understand?

It is IRRELEVANT to say Milk Thistle has "some"
liver-protecting properties because ALA and
Tylers already protect the liver to the
highest extent. THE ADDITION OF MILK THISTLE
WILL NOT YIELD BETTER LIVER PRORECTION.

So, if you're taking ALA or ALA+Tylers, you're
better off giving your Milk Thistle to your cat or
dog as they're going to see more benefits
from it then you are.

Fonz

 

[Silent Method]

no Silent, i still will not give in

Creatine can have a SMALL benefit as milk tistle. But would you choose Creatine over roids hahaha). So way take milk tistle and hope that you get the benefit out of it. It's like taking prohormones and hoping this will beat HGH (would be nice for the cost).
As for the Creatine, it lets you retain water in the muscle so you get the impression of gaining muscle. Taking a heavy dosage each day is great for killing your kidneys. So no, i will never take Creatine again either.

What you should do (if not already done) is : do a cycle of two 17 aa's, for 6 weeks and take one gram of milk tistle. Then get a blood test. Then go at it for another 6 weeks, this time use ALA with Tylers Detox(both products are easy to get in the US), also one gram a day. Another blood test will indicate what gives best results. Post the results here and proof you are right. If you do not want to do this, then stop posting.

Jeff_rys, Your experiment lacks a control. By design, the best that could be measured would be the effectiveness of ALA + Tyler's Detox alone compared to milk thistle alone. (And even then, it is still rather limited observation in one individual.) Maybe you have missed it, but I've already said that I believe that ALA kicks ass over milk thistle. My argument is that there is no basis for proclaiming as fact the opinion that milk thistle is worthless - even in light of ALA use.

I think you missed my point with the whole creatine example. The point is simply that the result that one person sees while using a given chemical does not determine the results for another person using that chemical. You used creatine, didn't think it was all that, and decided that the risk was greater than the reward. Others have used it, saw spectacular, quantifiable results, feel there are no adverse effects, and continue to use it. Should we all base our understanding of creatine from your viewpoint? You may think so, but this is no way to assess creatine as an athletic supplement. So it is with your personal ALA/milk thistle experience.

(BTW, I think you have a limited understanding of how creatine works. Drawing some extra water into the muscle is swell (haha I made a pun) and may result in a bit of a strength increase. However, of more interest to an athlete looking facilitate real muscle growth is creatine's ATP regenerative property. By facilitating quick and efficient regeneration of ATP, creatine supplementation can enable an athlete to lift at a given intensity for a longer duration. Unless you have or are predisposed to kidney problems, are dehydrated, or are taking an unnecessarily large dose of creatine, its use should not pose any risk to your kidneys.)

 

[Silent Method]

Round and round and round we go...

Fonz, Your logic in this matter is too simple. It fails to take into account the vast multitude of variables, some known and some unknown, regarding this matter. Your logic is analogous to saying A-->C (very effectively) and B-->C (arguably less effectively.) Therefore, why use B to yield C when you could use A yield C more effectively? However, what I think you are failing to take into account here is that "liver protection" is not that simple and clear cut. It is a highly dynamic puzzle. ALA and Tyler's do not cover every aspect of this puzzle. If they did, we would have a means to HALT all liver damage. I propose that milk thistle MAY cover a piece of the liver damage puzzle that neither ALA nor Tyler's Detox cover. (Trudge back a couple of dozen posts. There seems to be some overlap in the way milk thistle and ALA and Tyler's work.) I could be dead wrong. But it is premature to assume I'm wrong, premature to claim milk thistle is worthless, without any evidence to support that claim. You have presented no evidence to effectively refute my stance.

 

[SirWanksalot]

I think the best thing that will come of this thread is a lot more bro's will incorporate ALA (and hopefully GLA also) into there arsenal and quite a few livers will be saved (later in life) in the process.

ALA performs so many good things for the body - I consider it a miracle nutrient.

 

[jboldman]

A++ for creativity <GRIN>

You are right, this thread has gone way over the top! Score another one for sillygistic logic, oops I mean syllogistic logic!

LOL...This thread is starting to feel like a merry-go-round..

These are the facts:

Lets say a person uses: 100mg Winstrol/day


And uses 5 of the following combinations.

1) ALA

2) ALA+Tylers

3) Milk Thistle

4) ALA+Tylers+Milk Thistle

5) ALA+Milk Thistle

Ok,lets see if we can all follow this simple explanation.

The LOWEST LIVER ENZYME VALUES WILL BE SEEN:
(From lowest to highest)

1. ALA+Tylers and ALA+Tylers+Milk Thistle

2. ALA and ALA+Milk Thistle

3. Milk Thistle.

Now, using some more of that grey matter we have up there...
(hopefully anyways..)


ALA+Tylers = ALA+Tylers+Milk Thistle

and

ALA = ALA+Milk Thistle

So, in other words if either ALA or ALA+Tylers is
being used MILK THISTLE DOES NOT YIELD
ABSOLUTELY ANY BENEFIT!!!!

Has this penetrated your mental processes enough for
you to understand?

It is IRRELEVANT to say Milk Thistle has "some"
liver-protecting properties because ALA and
Tylers already protect the liver to the
highest extent. THE ADDITION OF MILK THISTLE
WILL NOT YIELD BETTER LIVER PRORECTION.

So, if you're taking ALA or ALA+Tylers, you're
better off giving your Milk Thistle to your cat or
dog as they're going to see more benefits
from it then you are.

Fonz

 

[smokinghawk]

This is an awesome discussion. anyone who thinks bodybuilders are dummies with no brains or education should read all of this.

Plenty of white-collar pipsqueaks don't know what "syllogistic logic" is!

 

[Painkiller]

In Norway ala is not legal, so I have always taken Silybum marianum (Milk Thistle).
All I can say is that it is working for me...

Silybum marianum

Description and Constituents
Silybum marianum (milk thistle) has been used for centuries as an herbal medicine for the treatment of liver disease. Its use for liver disorders dates back to Pliny the Elder, a Roman naturalist, who described milk thistle as being "excellent for carrying off bile."1 Milk thistle is an annual or biennial plant indigenous to Europe and is also found in some parts of the United States. It grows in rocky soils to a height of three to ten feet with an erect stem that bears large, alternating, prickly-edged leaves. The common name, milk thistle, is derived from the "milky white" veins on the leaves, which, when broken open, yield a milky sap. Flowering season is from June to August, and each stem bears a single, large, purple flower ending in sharp spines. The fruit portion of the plant is glossy brown or grey with spots.2-4 Silybum marianum contains silymarin, which is composed of the flavanolignans silybin, silydianin, and silychristine, with silybin being the most biologically active. Silymarin is found in highest concentrations in the fruit portion of the plant but is also found in the leaves and seeds. The seeds also contain betaine, trimethylglycine and essential fatty acids, which may contribute to silymarin's hepatoprotective and anti-inflammatory effects.

Mechanisms of Action
Silymarin's hepatoprotective effects are accomplished via several mechanisms including antioxidation,8 inhibition of lipid peroxidation,9 enhanced liver detoxification via inhibition of Phase I detoxification and enhanced glucuronidation,10,11 and protection of glutathione depletion.12 Studies have also shown silymarin exhibits several anti-inflammatory effects, including inhibition of leukotriene and prostaglandin synthesis, Kupffer cell inhibition, mast cell stabilization, and inhibition of neutrophil migration.13-17In addition, silymarin has been shown to increase hepatocyte protein synthesis, thereby promoting hepatic tissue regeneration.18Animal studies have also demonstrated silybin reduces the conversion of hepatic stellate cells into myofibroblasts, slowing or even reversing fibrosis.19 Clinical studies conducted in Hungary also demonstrated silymarin to have immunomodulatory effects on the diseased liver.20,21

Pharmacokinetics
Silymarin is not water soluble, making tea preparations ineffective; therefore it is usually administered orally in encapsulated form. Because absorption of silymarin from the gastrointestinal tract is only moderate (23-47%), it is best administered as a standardized extract of 70-80 percent silymarin. In animals and humans, peak plasma levels are reached in four to six hours after an oral dose. Silymarin is excreted primarily via the bile but some clearance is also achieved via the kidneys. The clearance half-life of silymarin is six to eight hours.22,23


Clinical Indications

Amanita Mushroom Poisoning
The most impressive use of silymarin is in the treatment of Amanita phalloides mushroom poisoning. The genus Amanita is widespread in Europe and North America with several edible species being prized by mushroom collectors. Unfortunately, many of the Amanita species are highly toxic, and ingestion results in severe liver damage and death in approximately 30 percent of cases.24 In animal studies, silymarin given within 10 minutes after amanita toxin ingestion completely counteracted the toxic effects, and if given within 24 hours of toxin ingestion silymarin prevented death and greatly reduced liver damage.25

Hepatitis
Studies have shown silymarin to be effective in the treatment of both acute and chronic hepatitis. In acute viral hepatitis, administration of silymarin shortened treatment time and lowered serum bilirubin, AST, and ALT. In patients with chronic hepatitis, 420 mg silymarin per day for six months also yielded improved serum liver enzymes.26

Alcoholic Liver Disease and Cirrhosis
Studies conducted in Austria and Hungary have demonstrated silymarin administration resulted in a normalization of serum liver enzyme and total bilirubin levels in patients with alcoholic liver disease, in addition to improved liver tissue histology.27 In patients with cirrhosis, long-term (41 months) administration of silymarin at 420 mg per day resulted in a significant increase in survival compared to the placebo group.28

Hypercholesterolemia
An animal study found silymarin given to rats with diet-induced hypercholesterolemia demonstrated an anticholesterolemic effect similar to probucol, with an increase in HDL cholesterol and a decrease in total and biliary cholesterol.29

Psoriasis
The value of silymarin in the treatment of psoriasis may be due to its ability to improve endotoxin removal by the liver, inhibit cAMP phosphodiesterase, and inhibit leukotriene synthesis. Abnormally high levels of cAMP and leukotrienes have been observed in patients with psoriasis and normalization of these levels may improve the condition.13,30

Dosage/Toxicity
Silybum marianum is usually given as a standardized extract (70-80% silymarin) in encapsulated form, 100-300 mg three times daily being the typical adult dose. Both animal and human studies have shown silymarin to be non-toxic. At high doses (>1500 mg per day) a laxative effect is possible due to increased bile secretion and flow. Mild allergic reactions have also been noted but were not serious.

References
1. Pliny the Elder, Historia Naturalis 77 A.D.
2. Bisset N. Herbal Drugs and Pharmaceuticals. London: CRC Press; 1994:121-123.
3. Gruenwald J, Brendler T, Jaenicke C. PDR for Herbal Medicines. Montvale, NJ: Medical Economics Company, Inc.; 1998:1138-1141.
4. Luper S. A review of plants used in the treatment of liver disease: part 1. Altern Med Rev 1998;4:410-421.
5. Wagner H. Antihepatotoxic flavonoids. In: Cody V, Middleton E, and Harbourne JB eds. Plant Flavonoids in Biology and Medicine: Biochemical, Pharmacological, and Structure-Activity Relationships. New York, NY: Alan R. Liss, Inc.; 1986:545-558.
6. Adzet T. Polyphenolic compounds with biological and pharmacological activity. Herbs Spices Medicinal Plants 1986;1:167-184.
7. Hikino H, Kiso Y, Wagner H, Feibig M. Antihepatotoxic actions of flavonolignans from Silybum marianum fruits. Planta Medica 1984;50:248-250.
8. Wagner H. Plant constituents with antihepatotoxic activity. In: Beal JL, Reinhard E eds. Natural Products as Medicinal Agents. Stuttgart: Hippokrates-Verlag; 1981.
9. Bosisio E, Benelli C, Pirola O, et al. Effect of the flavanolignans of Silybum marianum L. on lipid peroxidation in rat liver microsomes and freshly isolated hepatocytes. Pharmacol Res 1992;25:147-154.
10. Baer-Dubowska W, Szaefer H, Drajka-Kuzniak V. Inhibition of murine hepatic cytochrome P450 activities by natural and synthetic phenolic compounds. Xenobiotica 1998;28:735-743.
11. Halim AB, el-Ahmady O, Hassab-Allah S, et al. Biochemical effect of antioxidants on lipids and liver function in experimentally-induced liver damage. Ann Clin Biochem 1997;34:656-663.
12. Campos R, Garido A, Guerra R, et al. Silybin dihemisuccinate protects against glutathione depletion and lipid peroxidation induced by acetaminophen on rat liver. Planta Med 1989;55:417-419.
13. Fiebrich F, Koch H. Silymarin, an inhibitor of lipoxygenase. Experentia 1979;35:150-152.
14. Dehmlow C, Erhard J, de Groot H. Inhibition of Kupffer cell functions as an explanation for the hepatoprotective properties of silibinin. Hepatology 1996;23:749-754.
15. Fantozzi R, Brunelleschi S, Rubino A, et al. FMLP-activated neutrophils evoke histamine release from mast cells. Agents Actions 1986;18:155-158.
16. Dehmlow C, Murawski N, de Groot H, et al. Scavenging of reactive oxygen species and inhibition of arachidonic acid metabolism by silibinin in human cells. Life Sci 1996;58:1591-1600.
17. De La Puerta R, Martinez E, Bravo L. Effect of silymarin on different acute inflammation models and on leukocyte migration. J Pharm Pharmacol 1996;48:968-970.
18. Sonnenbichler J, Zetl I. Biochemical effects of the flavanolignane silibinin on RNA, protein and DNA synthesis in rat livers. In: Cody V, Middleton E, Harbourne JB, eds. Plant Flavonoids in Biology and Medicine: Biochemical, Pharmacological, and Structure-Activity Relationships. New York, NY; 1986:319-331.
19. Fuchs EC, Weyhenmeyer R, Weiner OH, et al. Effects of silibinin and of a synthetic analogue on isolated rat hepatic stellate cells and myofibroblasts. Arzneimittelforschung 1997;26:643-649.
20. Deak G, Muzes G, Lang I. Immunomodulator effect of silymarin therapy in chronic alcoholic liver diseases. Orv Hetil 1990:131:1291-1292, 1295-1296. [Article in Hungarian]
21. Lang I, Nekam K, Gonzalez-Cabello R. Hepatoprotective and immunological effects of antioxidant drugs. Tokai J Exp Clin Med 1990;15:123-127.
22. Schandalik R, Gatti G, Perucca E, et al. Pharmacokinetics of silybin in bile following administration of silipide and silymarin in cholecystectomy patients. Arzneimittelforschung 1992;42:964-968.
23. Tyler V. Herbalgram 1994;30:24-30.
24. Vogel G, Tuchweber B, Trost W. Protection by silibinin against Amanita phalloides intoxication in beagles. Toxicol Appl Pharmacol 1984;73:355-362.
25. Desplaces A, Choppin J, Vogel G, Trost W. The effects of silymarin on experimental phalloidine poisoning. Arzneimittelforschung 1975;25:89-96.
26. Magliulo E, Gagliardi B, Fiori GP. Results of a double blind study on the effect of silymarin in the treatment of acute viral hepatitis, carried out at two medical centres. Med Klin 1978;73:1060-1065. [Article in German]
27. Feher I, Deak G, Muzes G. Liver protective action of silymarin therapy in chronic alcoholic liver diseases. Orv Hetil 1989;130:2723-2727. [Article in Hungarian]
28. Ferenci P, Dragosics B, Dittrich H, et al. Randomized controlled trial of silymarin treatment in patients with cirrhosis of the liver. J Hepatol 1989;9:105-113.
29. Kreeman V, Skottova N, Walterova D, et al. Silymarin inhibits the development of diet-induced hypercholesterolemia in rats. Planta Med 1998;64:138-142.
30. Kock HP, Bachner J, Loffler E. Silymarin: Potent inhibitor of cyclic AMP phosphodiesterase. Meth Find Expel Clin Pharmacol 1985;7:409-413.