Lifting twice a day?

[hoteacher]

I am looking to change up my lifting program and shock my body. I recently read an article on twice a day training. The article deals with using extreme glycogen delpletion in order to build muscle. The program calls for:

1. Performing the same exercises for both workouts, but change exercises from week to week in order to prevent overtraining.
2. Rest 3-8 hrs in between workouts.
3. Use high reps
4. Rest no more than 60 seconds between sets
5. Take 3-7 days before training a body part again
6. Follow program for no more than 6 weeks (I will follow for 4...due to school starting again)

Nutrition notes...because you are trying to deplete your muscles of glycogen then go full force after your second workout:
1. 1-2 hrs before first workout consume a lean protein with moderate amount of complex carbs.
2. post shake after first workout only protein
3. each meal in between workouts only protein and green leafy veggies
4. immediately after second workout...protein and at least 50g simple carbs ( I am a 110 female with 8 percent body fat....should I still consume 50g? I usually take 25g)
5. all meals after second session should include lean protein and some complex carb.

Has anyone ever tried this plan? THANKS!

 

[BiggT]

What are your goals?

In order to build muscle naturally, you need to train heavy. You need to be fueled to train heavy, so I don't see how 'muscle building' and 'glycogen depletion' should even be used in the same sentence.

The workout outlined sounds, for example, like something a fitness competitor would use when cutting and conditioning for a show. restricted carbs and short rest periods between sets will not build much of anything.

Again, it all depends on your goals. You said school was starting soon, and from your handle I will make a guess you're a teacher with the whole summer to workout whenever you want. If you want to build muscle and have a lot of time on your hands and want to play with twice a day training, let me know, I can post some sample routines. But, honestly, that routine and diet will not build any muscle for you.

 

[Guinness5.0]

IMHO the source of that info is completely unreliable- there are fundamental misunderstandings evident in the list. For example:

-To build muscle you need to improve on the most important lifts from week to week, not switch them up constantly to avoid "overtraining". There is definitely a point where variety becomes necessary, but it ain't week-to-week- that's a fact.
-The fact that whoever wrote this clearly has no understanding of what overtraining is makes any/all advice suspect right off the bat.
-Three-seven days b/t training the same body part? That right there is beyond vague.

I'm fairly new to learning what really works, and these are points that I probably would have agreed with not too long ago. Stick around the training forum, read some of what the "yodas" around here have to say and you'll soon see that the more complicated something is (in regard to training) the less likely it is to be beneficial.

 

[Tacosupreme]

let me guess muscle and fitness.... go out and get muscluar development.. they dont lie

 

[BiggT]

hoteacher,

Did you by chance happen to read that article in a popular bodybuilding magazine. If you did, the fact that it makes no sense is understandable. Still, if you are itching to work out twice a day, and build muscle, let me know, there are some decent routines.....

 

[hoteacher]

hoteacher,

Did you by chance happen to read that article in a popular bodybuilding magazine. If you did, the fact that it makes no sense is understandable. Still, if you are itching to work out twice a day, and build muscle, let me know, there are some decent routines.....

Hey! Thanks so much for the reply and info. Yes, I AM VERY INTERESTED in a new routine that will BUILD. I have been working with a trainer who has convinced me to do a bodybuilding show next summer. She would like me on stage in the spring but there is no way I will go through the cutting process in the presence of my students...so I am shooting for next aug. My trainer has me on the following split:

Mon-chest
Tues-back
Wed-legs
Thurs-shoulders with interval sprints afterward
Friday-bis and tris interval cardio again
Saturday-legs
sunday-off

My legs are lacking...she had me train quads and hams sep but did not see great results so now I am doing squats (free and sumo on smith)till I puke, lunges, leg presses, leg extensions, curls, etc. My diet is VERY CLEAN. Eating 40:40:20...however rotating my carbs, eating high on leg, hest and back and low on arms and shoulders.

Thanks for your help!

 

[super_rice]

i have no idea what eating how i would go about eating 40:40:20, but i know that if you didn't spend so much time rotating your carbs or whatever the hell that means (switching between rice and bread!!! ) and squatted with a good old barbell and a rack, your leg, as well as any other posterior chain problems would just go away. what the hell is sumo squatting?

however i think lifting twice a day is a very good idea, if you can handle the volume (bicep curls and crap like that is not "volume").

 

[Guinness5.0]

Hey! Thanks so much for the reply and info. Yes, I AM VERY INTERESTED in a new routine that will BUILD. I have been working with a trainer who has convinced me to do a bodybuilding show next summer. She would like me on stage in the spring but there is no way I will go through the cutting process in the presence of my students...so I am shooting for next aug. My trainer has me on the following split:

Mon-chest
Tues-back
Wed-legs
Thurs-shoulders with interval sprints afterward
Friday-bis and tris interval cardio again
Saturday-legs
sunday-off

My legs are lacking...she had me train quads and hams sep but did not see great results so now I am doing squats (free and sumo on smith)till I puke, lunges, leg presses, leg extensions, curls, etc. My diet is VERY CLEAN. Eating 40:40:20...however rotating my carbs, eating high on leg, hest and back and low on arms and shoulders.

Thanks for your help!

Well, I've got a feeling that the advice you get here and the advice you get from your trainer will differ substantially. It's impossible to follow both. "A man cannot serve two masters" (Some bible verse)

Example- IMO it really doesn't matter that you would up cals to emphasize a bodypart on a day-to-day basis. While it "sounds" like it makes sense to do so, in reality it doesn't work out b/c you don't grow extra on the days you train. You grow from response to stimulus based on a bunch of variables like rest, presence of caloric excess, hormone levels, quality of stimulus, etc. The nutrient timing is minutiae(sp) at best. You may find this interesting. I have no idea how differently this should be incorporated for a female, but the underlying premise of accruing fatigue, then backing down so that you come back stronger holds true:
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html

The bottom line is if you are making progress then it (whatever you are doing) is working. If it's not, then learn/adapt/change.

 

[BiggT]

Hot Teacher, you're gonna grow from the squats. The progressive increasing of weight from workout to workout causes the body to adapt, as long as you are eating enough. I would suggest you do full ass to the floor squats. This will work your hamstrings as well as quads. Extensions and the like are fluff exercises. Think of them in terms of accessory work. They will not give you the size that progressive resistance training on the squat will. Don't confuse getting sore and pumped from doing a lot of crap with progress.

With legs, it sounds, to me at least, like your trainer is overcomplicating the matter. You want to build muscle, plain and simple, correct? Sumo Squats, aka adductor squats (think that machine where you spread your legs out) train the outer thigh/hip area. They are a specialized movement, and in my opinion serve a purpose in strengthening a weak area, but to build size, I would put the focus on heavy, free weight squats through a full range of motion. Keep a workout journal and track your progress progress. You can add in some higher rep lunges or step ups for assistance, but keep in mind they are totally assistance. If size is your only focus, and you are a beginner, I say the less assistance, the better.

As far as cycling the carbs, again, think for yourself. Understand not only what you're doing it, but why you are doing it. It sounds like your trainer wants you to cycle them in order to provide fuel for the hard workouts, which you'll burn, and then cut them back on non-training and less intense days so that you don't gain excess bodyweight. Get enough protein. Get enough GOOD fats. You can control your weight through carbs. Eat the right kinds. I would suggest you monitor your total calories. If you are putting on too much fat, decrease the daily total by 10% to start and see if you like what you see better. If you aren't gaining enough, up the daily total by about 10% to start, then if you're still not happy up it by another 10%. Just play, it's trial and error getting to know your own body.

Your friend PMed me and I sent her a sample twice a day routine. I did not lose sight of the fact that bodybuilding is your focus. I modified some things that I would suggest for a strength athlete. But, the focus is getting stronger through progressive resistance.

Again, I understand you have lots of free time now, and if you have the itch to train twice a day, get it out of your system, you can progress when doing it right. When school resumes if you still want to add some size, I'd suggest something even more basic than what I sent your friend for a bulking up period.

 

[nsashbl01]

Big T, thanks for the help. I'm the boyfriend here. Her trainer has been really good with focussing on heavy work. At 108lbs she is making good strength gains. Her squats are always atf, both with free squats and if she does smith. Her gym only has one cage, so she has to do smith sometimes. She is getting like 8-12 reps with 135 with no problems. She has only been doing deads for a short time and is reping 165. He goal is 225 by the end of Summer. I agree she needs to do a new split, but the problem I argue with her about is how lean she stays. She is no more than 8%bf, maybe less now. I think it would be easier to gain size while being a little thicker. But she won't have it! Again, thanks for the input....

 

[Madcow2]

A female body at 8% bodyfat, that body is thinking 'possible danger zone'. The last thing it will want to do is put on calorically expensive muscle - if there was a food shortage her likelyhood of not surviving would be greatly increased if the body allowed her to add much muscle and when the body has low fat levels this is how it determines how likely a food shortage is and how severely it will constrain itself. The body is a survival machine, those with the genetics to easily pile on muscle and hold very little bodyfat died out in famine #1 or #2 a few million years back - the body still behaves according to survival, not looking good in at the beach.

Maybe something in there helps hoteacher understand what maintaining very low bodyfat does for one's ability to put on muscle.

 

[lavi]

are you sure she's only 8% bodyfat? that's damn low bf for a female

 

[nsashbl01]

Her trainer is into staying very lean. She has taken every show she every competed in, so I keep my mouth shut. Her trainer is also 50 years old and still in perfect health living this way. She will put most guys on this board to shame!

Lavi, as far as being sure she's at 8%, no doubt. She has more veins on her stomach than most guys have on their forearms. Her shoulders show striations, etc. She has someone approach her every where we go. Wallmart, bars, grocery store. Anything from "how much do you bench", to questions about fitness, etc. It's quite an ego boost for her.

 

[BiggT]

nsash,

I definitely agree with you the 8% bodyfat thing. It is very difficult to build muscle naturally with low bodyfat levels, and single digits on a woman is extremely low, almost so low it makes me question the means/conditions she was tested under. But, thats not important, from your description, she sounds VERY lean. I never condone eating junk foods and crap to pile on weight, so I don't want to come across wrong, but in my experience, most people, who are natural, get the best results when trying to build muscle by feeding the body an adequate amount of nutrients to grow. She by no means needs to 'get fat', lol.....but I definitely think she would get where she wants to be faster if she carried slightly more bodyfat in the offseason.

Again, I understand what you're saying about her trainer looking good and having an impressive contest resume, but these things have been proven numerous times at all levels. Even at the very top, when AAS are rampant, the women carry a curvier, smoother look in the offseason in order to optimize their training. Also, those are very respectable numbers she has in her training, just think how much more she could do and how much more muscle that would translate to if she trained at a little high bf %.

Maybe she could check out some posts on the women's board and check out some other boards and talk to some girls who compete and see what they think. But, I most certainly agree that the split needs to go.

 

[nsashbl01]

nsash,

I definitely agree with you the 8% bodyfat thing. It is very difficult to build muscle naturally with low bodyfat levels, and single digits on a woman is extremely low, almost so low it makes me question the means/conditions she was tested under. But, thats not important, from your description, she sounds VERY lean. I never condone eating junk foods and crap to pile on weight, so I don't want to come across wrong, but in my experience, most people, who are natural, get the best results when trying to build muscle by feeding the body an adequate amount of nutrients to grow. She by no means needs to 'get fat', lol.....but I definitely think she would get where she wants to be faster if she carried slightly more bodyfat in the offseason.

Again, I understand what you're saying about her trainer looking good and having an impressive contest resume, but these things have been proven numerous times at all levels. Even at the very top, when AAS are rampant, the women carry a curvier, smoother look in the offseason in order to optimize their training. Also, those are very respectable numbers she has in her training, just think how much more she could do and how much more muscle that would translate to if she trained at a little high bf %.

Maybe she could check out some posts on the women's board and check out some other boards and talk to some girls who compete and see what they think. But, I most certainly agree that the split needs to go.

She has recently been working on bringing her total cal's up. She eats cleaner than anyone I know, but her carb's are a bit low imo. So she's trying to bring in some more carbs. She is very active on the womens board, I just thought she should open up to some other boards to learn more. Here's a few shots of her from earlier this Summer. These are late in the day, so she looks flatter and not as tight as she does early in the day......

 

[BiggT]

She looks great. Much more muscle than I expected for 108lbs.

 

[Guinness5.0]

how 'bout for us non-plats? Still you can tell she's in GREAT shape just from the thumbs!

 

[rbtrout]

Frankly, the only way to build more size and muslce, is to eat an excess of calories. At 8%, she's (as Madcow said) near the danger zone for a woman. I can see why she'd take every show she's in, she looks great, but no legs. Instead of just doubling or tripling the amount of cals taken in, she can add 50-100 cals per meal, keeping the same 40-40-20 mix. At 50 cals per meal, that an extra 250 (or 300 if 6 meals, etc.) and at 100, you're talking 500 cals extra per day. By doing it gradually, the body can adapt to the change in cals and not store it as fat, as some of us get by just doubling our cals. I'd recommend this course of action, as it will allow for the extra cals needed to build the muscle without too much of an excess.
For training, I think if you train hard enough 1 time a day, you might not have the energy to lift a second time. Since next August is your goal (2006), then I'd work on the building and eating a bit more until May/June, whenever school is out. During this time, focusing on the compound lifts - squats, deads, bench, military, bent rows (see the 5X5 posts). With an excess in calories each day, a routine that concentrates on the compound lifts will really help build size and strength. Then, once school is out, start on the cutting phase and add in some of the isolation lifts to get cut.
I'm no expert, but with what you've told us, this is probably what I would do. Keep up the good work and keep us up to date with your progress. You look awesome now, think about how you'd look with another 5-10 lbs of muscle - whoa!

 

[hoteacher]

Great advice! I will start increasing my cals per meal as suggested and exploring the 5x5 training program. Will keep you posted with progress...hopefully with 10 more pounds of muscle! Thanks again! and yes...I did read about that crazy routine in a magazine...never again...promise!

 

[nsashbl01]

how 'bout for us non-plats? Still you can tell she's in GREAT shape just from the thumbs!

I'd like to but don't know of any free hosting sites any more. Used to use Imageshack, but thats no good here now. Any ideas??