Lets open this discussion about legal alternatives to Steroids.

[Triple J]

Thank you for pointing out the risks with these deadly prohormone killers. I now realize selling these substances is akin to Nazi experimentations on prisoners. I tell you, it is a moral outrage. I can take comfort knowing my favorite goods produced by UG and veterinary labs, were once deemed safe by the boys at the FDA. Thank God there are many peer-reviewed studies of bodybuilding level dosages and cycle combinations.

Due to the years of research and peer-reviewed studies, nobody ever is harmed by fda-approved meds, and furthermore we are protected from many potentially deadly drugs being used in primitive societies outside the u.s. Luckily, soon the prohormones (don't believe what your crummy friends might tell you, they are prohormones because they are legal, right?) will be taken off the market. And since they are so risky and without peer-reviewed studies, no UG labs will dare pick them up. Then we will all be safer.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Thank you for pointing out the risks with these deadly prohormone killers. I now realize selling these substances is akin to Nazi experimentations on prisoners. I tell you, it is a moral outrage. I can take comfort knowing my favorite goods produced by UG and veterinary labs, were once deemed safe by the boys at the FDA. Thank God there are many peer-reviewed studies of bodybuilding level dosages and cycle combinations.

Due to the years of research and peer-reviewed studies, nobody ever is harmed by fda-approved meds, and furthermore we are protected from many potentially deadly drugs being used in primitive societies outside the u.s. Luckily, soon the prohormones (don't believe what your crummy friends might tell you, they are prohormones because they are legal, right?) will be taken off the market. And since they are so risky and without peer-reviewed studies, no UG labs will dare pick them up. Then we will all be safer.

I sence a touch of sarcasm in your post.

 

[Becoming]

Thank you for pointing out the risks with these deadly prohormone killers. I now realize selling these substances is akin to Nazi experimentations on prisoners. I tell you, it is a moral outrage.

The point is even they weren't stupid enough to test experimental hormones on themselves back in the 30s/40s...

it was very clearly stated - no need to twist my words around to try and give yourself some basis for an argument...

I can take comfort knowing my favorite goods produced by UG and veterinary labs, were once deemed safe by the boys at the FDA.

There is no guarantee "PH" substances are produced in any better environment than UG gear as their manufacture is also unregulated...

Due to the years of research and peer-reviewed studies, nobody ever is harmed by fda-approved meds, and furthermore we are protected from many potentially deadly drugs being used in primitive societies outside the u.s.

People are harmed much less than by unregulated drugs...that is a fact. Also there are means for effective, documented drugs to get to patients here in the US before they are approved here...

Also notepeople in other countries don't need "PH" - why would they when they can have the real thing legally (or much easier than us here in the US at any rate)?




Look, the fact is these things are unproven and undocumented for safety and efficacy...

They may be safe, or maybe not, they may work, or maybe not...
The fact you "feel" okay on them does not mean they are safe...
The fact some people feel that they get results does not make them effective (ever hear of placebo effect?)....





Funny that all I have put up are documentable facts since my first post on this thread and yet you still dance around and try to come up with smooth sounding arguments... and no one has posted not even one reliable journal article posted up about any of them....

Keep dancing...

I am still waiting....





take mega dosages of M1T and any other untested PH if you like, don't take any PCT and don't get your blood work done...

actually, I would prefer it if you did...

actually, now I dare you to.... how bout if I send you a nice new 9.99 bottle of M1t - the only condition is you have to take every one of the pills in the bottle in one 24hour period....

where should I send the bottle? or is this not a good idea?

 

[Triple J]

That's just stupid bro. Taking a whole bottle of M1T? Now who ever said anything about megadosages? who ever said anything about no PCT?

Its very simple, life is full of risks - most of us who have been in this game for a while accept that, and deal with it. We are all gunea pigs to some degree. I like the innovation taking place with these products, and I believe in informed choice, and freedom of choice. Innovators take risks, as do people who are first to try new things. You believe the level of risk from a health perspective is unacceptable, while I think it is marginal, counter-balanced to some extent by some of the positive properties of the substances themselves, not to mention their legal status -a different type of risk, but something some of us consider important enough to take into consideration.

This thread was started to discuss legal alternatives to AAS. Your arguments basically flame people who have used, or are considering using these products, and discourages them from sharing their experiences both good and bad. Your point is simple enough to understand, no need for exaggerated arguments about nazi experiments, drinking antifreeze, taking a whole bottle of M1T, no PCT, no peer-reviewed studies, blah, blah, blah. Other rational viewpoints exist, so let the discussion move on.

 

[Triple J]

On a side note I bet some women would feel damn good on say 500g of sust a week....

Does that mean they won't suffer any long term effects?

Oh wait, does RESEARCH tell us that that might be inappropriate?

Hmmmm, maybe we should research things before we use them....!!!

Well I don't need RESEARCH to tell me women should not megadose testosterone, and it is my guess there is not much research on this topic, as common sense does not need research. But for those without common sense, spending money on the RESEARCH may be important.

Now tell me, do you believe the long-term effects of FDA approved drugs are known? That is one of the biggest myths in the drug field, even the AMA has acknowledged it. No way to evaluate for long-term effects other than rats.

 

[georgie24]

just use real gear

 

[Becoming]

That's just stupid bro. Taking a whole bottle of M1T? Now who ever said anything about megadosages? who ever said anything about no PCT?

why not take them if they are SAFE? I will concede it is an exaggerated point tho...

I like the innovation taking place with these products, and I believe in informed choice, and freedom of choice. Innovators take risks, as do people who are first to try new things. You believe the level of risk from a health perspective is unacceptable, while I think it is marginal, counter-balanced to some extent by some of the positive properties of the substances themselves, not to mention their legal status -a different type of risk, but something some of us consider important enough to take into consideration.

I never said that I thought it was not an innovative idea... nor did I ever say it is not POSSIBLE that some truly great products might result...

My ONLY problem is that there are a lot of CLAIMS being made as to safety and effectiveness that are completely baseless and based on SPECULATION alone... yet "PH" backers refuse to admit this...

This thread was started to discuss legal alternatives to AAS. Your arguments basically flame people who have used, or are considering using these products, and discourages them from sharing their experiences both good and bad.....

Other rational viewpoints exist, so let the discussion move on.

I never flamed people for using, only people that insist that speculation is as valid as scientific experimentation...
According to every school of logic I know of, insisting speculation=science is not RATIONAL to any degree....

for those without common sense, spending money on the RESEARCH may be important.

Actually those without common sense might INSIST on research...
BTW the reason you know NOT to give women mega-doses is not because of COMMON SENSE..... people did not know that this was bad at one time and actually made that mistake... and it was documented... ever hear of East German women's athletics?

Now tell me, do you believe the long-term effects of FDA approved drugs are known? That is one of the biggest myths in the drug field, even the AMA has acknowledged it. No way to evaluate for long-term effects other than rats.

Thank you for pointing out that you don't know anything about the pharmaceutical industry and FDA regulations.... Longterm studies are done for a period of several years IN HUMANS before a drug is approved. In addition, follow up studies (including Phase IV clinical trials) are done post approval to ascertain and to act as a safety net AFTER a drugs release.... how do you think drugs get recalled for safety reasons? Longterm effects ARE known and your argument is false. Mistakes are made, but at least there is a net in place to stop damage before it gets too out of hand....

Do the PH companies monitor the health of their customers...? are they keeping logs of how many people are shut-down by their products and for how long? Do they follow up with the bloodwork of each customer? What do they do if adverse reports come in? Do they pull the product? Or do they try to squeeze in as many sales as possible before the ban?

All this has been done with current/previously approved products...



Lets face it this market is all based only on speculation and a market created by the LE initiatives of the government of the US....

How come it seems most people outside the US with access to the "real deal" don't use PH? It is just as good right? But in countries with similar laws you see more people who would use them?



A quick question - when and if the ban on PH does happen, will you continue to use PH, or IF you use, will you use more tried and tested products like test, dbol, etc?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

1. synthesis of traditional steroids is a well defined process- purity is high 99+
2. M1T and 1T among the older of the "legals" still test often at less than 90%

3. mechanism of action of most traditional AAS is decently well explored
4. literally no research on "legals"

5. liver toxicity- these "legals" can cause liver cancer- as was found with many of the AAS that were discarded in the process of developing the few AAS that are sold commercially.
6. note- it took THOUSANDS of AAS synthesized to get the 12 or so that are available today... there were lots of "losers".

IMHO the actual harm and civil legal ramifications of what will come out of this will make the "andro" suits look like chump change. These compounds are literally complete unknowns and most of them are progestins, many strong progestins- as much as the sellers try to deny it.

 

[jcam222]

1. synthesis of traditional steroids is a well defined process- purity is high 99+
2. M1T and 1T among the older of the "legals" still test often at less than 90%

3. mechanism of action of most traditional AAS is decently well explored
4. literally no research on "legals"

5. liver toxicity- these "legals" can cause liver cancer- as was found with many of the AAS that were discarded in the process of developing the few AAS that are sold commercially.
6. note- it took THOUSANDS of AAS synthesized to get the 12 or so that are available today... there were lots of "losers".

IMHO the actual harm and civil legal ramifications of what will come out of this will make the "andro" suits look like chump change. These compounds are literally complete unknowns and most of them are progestins, many strong progestins- as much as the sellers try to deny it.

Could you elaborate on the bulk of the legal items being progestins and what that entails for some of us who are less technically astute? I certainly value your thoughts. You always bring straight forward thoughts with scientific data. It certainly lends itself well to this as a discussion as opposed to the few who would like to turn it into a flame war.

As a side question.....I have seen it said that GD Searle originally developed and has a patent pending for 4-OHT. Does anyone know why they have never taken it to market?

 

[Becoming]

As a side question.....I have seen it said that GD Searle originally developed and has a patent pending for 4-OHT. Does anyone know why they have never taken it to market?

Who knows why they haven't taken it to market (there could be infinite reasons)

Patent #2,762,818 is avaliable for view here

"4-hydroxytestosterone (4OHT) is a metabolite of the steroidal aromatase inhibitor (used for breast cancer treatment), 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione (4OHA)..."

4OHA binds weakly to the androgen receptor... but "4OHT binds more strongly and does exhibit androgenic effects in vivo..." (from the article sited below) (so 4OHA also shows androgenic activity because of this metabolite 4OHT which it is converted to in the body)

There is not much data on it in pubmed - but if you look up the paper:

J Enzyme Inhib. 1992;6(2):141-7.

Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.

Davies JH, Shearer RJ, Rowlands MG, Poon GK, Houghton J, Jarman M, Dowsett M.

I bet it woud lead you to some more data (previous studies where they might discuss its androgenic effects)...

...by the way 4-hydroxytamoxifen (differnt chemical entirely) also goes by the abbreviation 4OHT.... so save yourself the headaches and search under 4-hydroxytestosterone only