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- Thread starter jubei
- Start date
mrflexdiesel
New member
You sound a little vexed my man!
Themachine01
New member
Gonna have to disagree with ya. I dont have any studies on hand or saved, but Ive done a lot of research and a lot of discussion, including a doctor that used to compete as a pro and used to train me, and I would have to say that it is anti-catabolic. This of course is just my personal belief and I have no proof to provide or back my case up what so ever right now so dont bother getting all salty, just thought I would throw my 2 cents in. Anabolic on the other hand it is not.
S
satchboogie
Guest
jubei is absolutely correct...
studies conducted on rats, in doses that would kill a human, showed that clenbuterol is anabolic. again, this is in rats that weigh less than 1 pound!!!
now i cant back the following by any studies but i'm pretty certain that clenbuterol is catabolic and lets see why:
you shake, you cramp, you feel weak... draw your own conclusion.
efedrine, on the other hand, is one interesting compound that i believe is anti-catabolic. its just a shame the following day you feel so horrible.
studies conducted on rats, in doses that would kill a human, showed that clenbuterol is anabolic. again, this is in rats that weigh less than 1 pound!!!
now i cant back the following by any studies but i'm pretty certain that clenbuterol is catabolic and lets see why:
you shake, you cramp, you feel weak... draw your own conclusion.
efedrine, on the other hand, is one interesting compound that i believe is anti-catabolic. its just a shame the following day you feel so horrible.
SCOTTY-TWO-HOTTY
New member
jubei said:
I have nothing to offer in the area of research here... but I completely agree with jubei. I used Clen (with good intentions) for its professed anti catabolic properties and experienced a devestating post-cycle crash. I'm sure my dominant hormone, for a few months, was cortisol.
I lost so much fucking weight after i was finished my last (2nd) sust cycle when using clen in my pct to preserve muscle mass. I am in agreement with scottie, although I don't have any studies on hand I can almost guarentee clen is catabolic. I'm sure Fonz or someone else can post a study, although I would think the truth in what i'm saying would be obvious to any even moderately experienced clen user.
J
Juice Authority
Guest
jubei said:
Not disagreeing with you but let me play Devil's advocate for a minute here. Clen is not a steroid hormone but a beta-2-symphatomimetic. Does it not decrease the rate at which protein is reduced in the muscle cell? I believe it does, which makes it anti-catabolic in that sense. Clen also has the ability to quickly and strongly stimulate the muscle protein synthesis processes, which makes it anabolic.
Ok, now let's hear the eidence to the contrary.
J
Juice Authority
Guest
http://www.musclemonthly.com/articles/010501/010501-dharkam.htm
Is Clen anti-catabolic?
Controversy still remains as to the capacity of Clen to mediate muscle growth, because of a strong anabolic or a potent anti-catabolic action. If Clen is not anabolic in humans, is it at least anti-catabolic? The answer is yes and no. Let me explain: if you are eating normally, I doubt that Clen exerts any significant anti-catabolic action. In fact, Clen is probably more catabolic than anti-catabolic at high dosages. However, when you’re on a low calorie diet, things are very different, and Clen is then truly an anti-catabolic drug. It may sound paradoxical but it is not at all.
When on a restrictive diet, the main problem for our body is to use the fat from the adipose tissue as energy in order to make up for the caloric deficit. In bodybuilders, this pathway is very inefficient. We eat a high carb diet all year long, which means we train our body to selectively use carbs at the expense of fat. On a diet, our body has not been trained to use fat instead of carbs. It is still good at using carbs and bad at burning fat. So, instead of using fat as energy our body uses a second best source of energy: proteins. And where are those proteins coming from, from our muscles, which are perceived as a protein reserve while we are on a diet. Our muscles shrink while fat remains stuck.
This is where Clen comes in. Clen is able to help our body uses its own fat as energy instead of muscle proteins. The fat burning process is accelerated which mechanically spares our muscles mass. At the end of the diet, thanks to a quicker and more efficient fat usage, we end up leaner and bigger. Not bigger compared to what we were before the diet but bigger compared to what we would have been at the end of the same diet without the Clen. It depends on the length and the severity of the diet, but Clen can make a difference of several kilograms, which is remarkable. Growth Hormone is popular before a competition for the very same reason: it renders the diet both easier and far more effective, preventing excessive muscle shrinkage. For those who still insist that it is possible to diet without sacrificing a significant amount of muscle mass, please take a long look at Dorian Yates' book "Blood and Guts". Before and after pictures are shown while he is on a diet. An expert eye will see that many pounds of pure beef were lost while the amount of fat he got rid of is limited. This is what happens when you get shredded, even if you’re the best in the world (Of course, by diet I don’t mean shedding five pounds before the holidays. I mean a real, shredding diet).
Please understand that this anti-catabolic action of Clen is indirect and will therefore not help you get bigger while you are NOT on a diet. This is why I say Clen can exert some anti-catabolic action or none at all.
Is Clen catabolic? Can this actually help us grow?
This may sound even stranger after what I just said but Clen can truly be a catabolic drug, too. At low dosage, it will go unnoticed. But past a certain amount (equivalent of 15-20 tablets of 20 mcg) chances are you are going to get sore by using Clen. Scientific research in humans demonstrates a potent catabolic effect of Clen as reflected by a rise of serum creatine kinase level. This means that Clen is attacking our muscle cells a bit like heavy training does.
Sound bad?
No!
Is it of any use for bodybuilders? Yes!
For "drug free" bodybuilders, it means that you have got to stay away from this high dosage of Clen. On the other hand, for steroid users, it is unfortunately a very interesting property. Ten years ago, I would not have made such a statement. Almost all the anabolic steroids were still available and one could choose the ones that suited him best. Saying that such a choice does not exist anymore would be an understatement. Prices and availability are inversely progressing. Testosterone is again the steroid of choice (because of a lack of choice). The main problem with testosterone is that after a while a user experiences more and more trouble getting sore while on it. Of course, it depends on the dosage and the capacity of the user to transform the male hormone into female hormones (aromatization).
You see, estrogens protect our muscles from damage. This is good in every sport except bodybuilding. Potent anti-aromatase drugs do exist but their prices prohibit their use. Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) will exert an estrogen-like activity on muscle (and fat too) in many people, which is going to reduce their capacity for muscle growth while helping them to get fat.
Why do we want some muscle damage to occur because of training, simply, because our muscle cells are internally able to manufacture very potent growth factors such as IGF, FGF, Prostaglandins and probably GH too, in case of damage. The more steroids one uses, the higher this manufacturing capacity should be. Furthermore, steroids increase the muscle’s sensitivity to the anabolic actions of those growth factors. This is a shame, since most of those growth factors will only be released (and therefore become active) if the muscle membrane experiences some damage. Training acts like a robber who opens the vault where the growth factors are hidden. Because of the estrogens, this beneficial effect of training is attenuated. Clen can act like this robber to unleash the growth factors. How do we manage this?
Once all the growth factors are released, growth will take place, repairing the damage and inducing a hypertrophic response on top of this. On the other hand, the muscle capacities to reproduce extra amounts of growth factors will be impaired for a short while. Steroids will accelerate recovery from this shortage.
But it means that the high doses of Clen have to be used sporadically, I would say about once a week. It has to be coupled with a traumatic workout on a body part where you want to accelerate growth. You also need to rotate those body parts in order to make sure the restoration of the manufacturing capacities in one muscle is complete before triggering a new release. For example, one week you can train your back in a traumatic fashion (using heavy weights along with forced and negative reps in movements that end with a strong stretch). Next week, do the legs. The following week, it can be chest... The pain due to the soreness will be intense but it will be rewarded by rapid growth. Therefore, the catabolic actions of Clen can be used to trigger growth, but only in synergy with steroids. If you follow this procedure, make sure you use massive amounts of proteins and amino acids, especially BCAA and taurine. Clen will accelerate their destruction and you do not want to experience a shortage in either one.
Is Clen anti-catabolic?
Controversy still remains as to the capacity of Clen to mediate muscle growth, because of a strong anabolic or a potent anti-catabolic action. If Clen is not anabolic in humans, is it at least anti-catabolic? The answer is yes and no. Let me explain: if you are eating normally, I doubt that Clen exerts any significant anti-catabolic action. In fact, Clen is probably more catabolic than anti-catabolic at high dosages. However, when you’re on a low calorie diet, things are very different, and Clen is then truly an anti-catabolic drug. It may sound paradoxical but it is not at all.
When on a restrictive diet, the main problem for our body is to use the fat from the adipose tissue as energy in order to make up for the caloric deficit. In bodybuilders, this pathway is very inefficient. We eat a high carb diet all year long, which means we train our body to selectively use carbs at the expense of fat. On a diet, our body has not been trained to use fat instead of carbs. It is still good at using carbs and bad at burning fat. So, instead of using fat as energy our body uses a second best source of energy: proteins. And where are those proteins coming from, from our muscles, which are perceived as a protein reserve while we are on a diet. Our muscles shrink while fat remains stuck.
This is where Clen comes in. Clen is able to help our body uses its own fat as energy instead of muscle proteins. The fat burning process is accelerated which mechanically spares our muscles mass. At the end of the diet, thanks to a quicker and more efficient fat usage, we end up leaner and bigger. Not bigger compared to what we were before the diet but bigger compared to what we would have been at the end of the same diet without the Clen. It depends on the length and the severity of the diet, but Clen can make a difference of several kilograms, which is remarkable. Growth Hormone is popular before a competition for the very same reason: it renders the diet both easier and far more effective, preventing excessive muscle shrinkage. For those who still insist that it is possible to diet without sacrificing a significant amount of muscle mass, please take a long look at Dorian Yates' book "Blood and Guts". Before and after pictures are shown while he is on a diet. An expert eye will see that many pounds of pure beef were lost while the amount of fat he got rid of is limited. This is what happens when you get shredded, even if you’re the best in the world (Of course, by diet I don’t mean shedding five pounds before the holidays. I mean a real, shredding diet).
Please understand that this anti-catabolic action of Clen is indirect and will therefore not help you get bigger while you are NOT on a diet. This is why I say Clen can exert some anti-catabolic action or none at all.
Is Clen catabolic? Can this actually help us grow?
This may sound even stranger after what I just said but Clen can truly be a catabolic drug, too. At low dosage, it will go unnoticed. But past a certain amount (equivalent of 15-20 tablets of 20 mcg) chances are you are going to get sore by using Clen. Scientific research in humans demonstrates a potent catabolic effect of Clen as reflected by a rise of serum creatine kinase level. This means that Clen is attacking our muscle cells a bit like heavy training does.
Sound bad?
No!
Is it of any use for bodybuilders? Yes!
For "drug free" bodybuilders, it means that you have got to stay away from this high dosage of Clen. On the other hand, for steroid users, it is unfortunately a very interesting property. Ten years ago, I would not have made such a statement. Almost all the anabolic steroids were still available and one could choose the ones that suited him best. Saying that such a choice does not exist anymore would be an understatement. Prices and availability are inversely progressing. Testosterone is again the steroid of choice (because of a lack of choice). The main problem with testosterone is that after a while a user experiences more and more trouble getting sore while on it. Of course, it depends on the dosage and the capacity of the user to transform the male hormone into female hormones (aromatization).
You see, estrogens protect our muscles from damage. This is good in every sport except bodybuilding. Potent anti-aromatase drugs do exist but their prices prohibit their use. Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) will exert an estrogen-like activity on muscle (and fat too) in many people, which is going to reduce their capacity for muscle growth while helping them to get fat.
Why do we want some muscle damage to occur because of training, simply, because our muscle cells are internally able to manufacture very potent growth factors such as IGF, FGF, Prostaglandins and probably GH too, in case of damage. The more steroids one uses, the higher this manufacturing capacity should be. Furthermore, steroids increase the muscle’s sensitivity to the anabolic actions of those growth factors. This is a shame, since most of those growth factors will only be released (and therefore become active) if the muscle membrane experiences some damage. Training acts like a robber who opens the vault where the growth factors are hidden. Because of the estrogens, this beneficial effect of training is attenuated. Clen can act like this robber to unleash the growth factors. How do we manage this?
Once all the growth factors are released, growth will take place, repairing the damage and inducing a hypertrophic response on top of this. On the other hand, the muscle capacities to reproduce extra amounts of growth factors will be impaired for a short while. Steroids will accelerate recovery from this shortage.
But it means that the high doses of Clen have to be used sporadically, I would say about once a week. It has to be coupled with a traumatic workout on a body part where you want to accelerate growth. You also need to rotate those body parts in order to make sure the restoration of the manufacturing capacities in one muscle is complete before triggering a new release. For example, one week you can train your back in a traumatic fashion (using heavy weights along with forced and negative reps in movements that end with a strong stretch). Next week, do the legs. The following week, it can be chest... The pain due to the soreness will be intense but it will be rewarded by rapid growth. Therefore, the catabolic actions of Clen can be used to trigger growth, but only in synergy with steroids. If you follow this procedure, make sure you use massive amounts of proteins and amino acids, especially BCAA and taurine. Clen will accelerate their destruction and you do not want to experience a shortage in either one.
S
satchboogie
Guest
juice..
the guy pretty much wrote "blah blah blah blah blah".
its nothint but his theory/view with absolutely nothing to back it up.
i dont buy it!
the guy pretty much wrote "blah blah blah blah blah".
its nothint but his theory/view with absolutely nothing to back it up.
i dont buy it!
J
Juice Authority
Guest
satchboogie said:
Did you notice how I started off my post? I said, "I'm not disagreeing with you but...."
I posted that info primarily to spur debate as this issue remains controversial.
Here's my take on the subject. I didn't beleive Clen to be all that anticatabolic until I actually added size on my first try a few years ago. It wasn't much, but I did add 2lbs or so of lean body mass in 2 weeks on very few calories. My experience is probably in the archive but I'm too lazy to go through it. As far as PCT, clen in low doses is great for giving you a boost in the gym and allows you to process protein more efficiently. I think it's one of the best PCT tools we have (used in the appropriate manner).
Themachine01
New member
Juice, so is your personal take on the subject that clen is anti-catabolic? Thats a good post, it makes a lot of sense.
Jubei, send me an email bro... [email protected]
psychedout
New member
rjl296 said:he's prolly too busy chasing 16 year old down
He's chasing down an 18 year old actually, but she looks to be about 14.
J
Juice Authority
Guest
Themachine01 said:
To tell you the truth Bro I'm undecided. I'm well informed on the topic but there is so much conflicting data I'm not sure. First and foremost it's a beta 2 agonist. As far as it's anabolic activity goes, it was formerly used as a growth-promoting drug in livestock if that tells you anything. Here's an interesting link on its background here in the US.
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OA/background/clenbute.htm
test-monkey
New member
well it's about time someone agrees with me, I've posted a while ago that clen is catabolic!
Themachine01
New member
If clen was catabolic, do you really think that people would still be using it. I would think that you would at least hear more complaints about strength loss or muscle loss, instead you mostly see strength staying the same. Now I understand that people still use T3 even though it is very catabolic, but you constantly see warnings to not use it without the addition of AS to counteract. Clen has been around for a long time, you guys think that now, years and years later we are jsut discovering that clen eats muscle, I just find it very hard to believe.
J
Juice Authority
Guest
test-monkey said:
Was this in reference to what I just posted? If so, I don't see where you got the idea that I was suggesting clen is catabolic. I suppose it "could be" catabolic at ridiculously high doses but that's not what I meant.
Last edited:
test-monkey
New member
Juice Authority said:
okay, catabolic may be to strong of a word, but I am a firm believer that clen isn't anti-catabolic at all and if anything it can hinder gains
think about about it, clen is a CNS and like all CNS ( coke, meth, adderal) they release cortisol, and speed up your metabolism which make you loss weight( thats why it's a good fat burner) but as pct I see clen as only being trouble to hold onto gains
I also speak from expirence I've used clen post-cycle and ran the same cycle a different time without clen Post-cycle and kept more gains.
Themachine01
New member
BigAndy69 said:
I have never used clen Post cycle, I was going to be giving it a whirl for the first time in about 3 weeks. At 80mcg per day BA69, do you think it benefited PCT?
S
satchboogie
Guest
i've said it a million times..
if you're lookin for an anti-catabolic agent thats NOT a steroid, efedrine is the man for the job!
if you're lookin for an anti-catabolic agent thats NOT a steroid, efedrine is the man for the job!
I think that the rate it can eat muscle really is significant. And I also think that its going to eat fat FIRST. Machine is right ... clen has been used since the getgo in PCT, or without.
I can see how people would think that clen is catabolic if all other cards arent in check. For example, if you are in a calorie deficit, protien is lower than usuall, training and rest are lagging, or you are doing more aerobics and higher volume workouts, I can see how clen could eat away at both fat AND muscle, especially if you are over training. Then throw in PCT, and I can see how people think this. Chances are that they are crashing anyways. Your bodies test furnace is shot off and you are trying to start it again, and you are probably producing as much natural test as jubie's 16 yr old girlfriend. This is more than likely the reason why people feel its catabolic during PCT. Do people still report that their muscle is getting eaten when running clen outside of PCT? I have not heard of it. Women report steroid like gains, and great muscle hardening from low doses of clen. So ... I would think that if your diet is still good, protien is high, and training is heavy like it always should be whether bulking or cutting, than I see no reason why you cant still preserve or even build muscle while losing fat. If these arent in check, or you are crashing during PCT, and trying to restore your HPTA, than ya ... I can see how people may THINK that its the clen that is eating their muscles. I just started clen for the first time yesterday, so I am going to keep a very close eye on things.
Cheers,
mavy
I can see how people would think that clen is catabolic if all other cards arent in check. For example, if you are in a calorie deficit, protien is lower than usuall, training and rest are lagging, or you are doing more aerobics and higher volume workouts, I can see how clen could eat away at both fat AND muscle, especially if you are over training. Then throw in PCT, and I can see how people think this. Chances are that they are crashing anyways. Your bodies test furnace is shot off and you are trying to start it again, and you are probably producing as much natural test as jubie's 16 yr old girlfriend. This is more than likely the reason why people feel its catabolic during PCT. Do people still report that their muscle is getting eaten when running clen outside of PCT? I have not heard of it. Women report steroid like gains, and great muscle hardening from low doses of clen. So ... I would think that if your diet is still good, protien is high, and training is heavy like it always should be whether bulking or cutting, than I see no reason why you cant still preserve or even build muscle while losing fat. If these arent in check, or you are crashing during PCT, and trying to restore your HPTA, than ya ... I can see how people may THINK that its the clen that is eating their muscles. I just started clen for the first time yesterday, so I am going to keep a very close eye on things.
Cheers,
mavy
Themachine01
New member
Mavy said:
Keep me updated on how you like the clen. Good luck with it.
I think some are missing the point when it comes to clen Post cycle. It's not intended to be anti catabolic, that's not why we should use it. It gives you a tremendous boost in the gym when energy levels are usually low (post cycle), and it allows you to keep training intensity up as well as not worrying about gaining fat. You need to start slow, 20-40mcg the first day, keep going with 40-60 mcg for a few days, followed by 80mcg. You have to go slowly. Clen can actually make you feel good if you ramp up slowly. If you are an experienced user, 100mcg can be used...but for the most part 80mcg is enough post cycle.
CENTURION44
New member
jubei said:
I've been saying this for 10 years. Any CNS is CATABOLIC.
If I'm not mistaken, jubai, you argued with me on this point. Good to see you've come to your senses.
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