Left ventricle hypertrophy! from steroids

[Voijn]

Hey guys
As some of you might remember i fainted one day in school wich led to different scans and checks.. Long story short; doctors found out that i had LVH, i told them that i had been using steroids.

Since that day, i have had alot of experiences from anxiety rushes. Depression, sleep problems and so on. The first 2 months after the scan was the hardest i have ever tried in my life, i regreted that i was stupid enough to even had tried steroids

After about 4-5months doctors sent me a letter, telling that everything would be fine.. Other things where all okay and that i shoudent worry.

Since im a research monster, i have now researched quite alot about LVH and can from my point of view conclude that the LVH that i have has come by an natural adaption of my heart towards the weights that i am lifting.

Ive spoken with alot of guys, and read studies saying that LVH caused from steroids or natural bodybuilding is not dangerous or a medical condition. Doctors are against LVH form the medical view, from the bodybuilders view its a normal phenomen!

Some of you guys might even have it right now, without knowing it. I advise you all, to get it chekked just to know if you got it or not.

Heres one studie: http://thinksteroids.com/articles/medically-supervised-steroid-use-01/

Ive got alot more if needed.

 

[Voijn]

And im not sure, but i feel that this topic is very much overlooked and not talked open about as it should be. I must admit, i love steroids and if your an angel by heart i see no problem with using them.

But steroids do have some negative effects on the body, and these must be looked at and not ignored. By knowing if you have a bad lever, cardiovascular problem, ect ect ect. You can actually go and fight against it by either using/dieting/training in way to prevent it

I´ve bought running shoes, never been af big fan of cardio but since it helps me stay healthy and now that i know i have a "condition" i try to stay af healthy as possible.

 

[dylangemelli]

And im not sure, but i feel that this topic is very much overlooked and not talked open about as it should be. I must admit, i love steroids and if your an angel by heart i see no problem with using them.

But steroids do have some negative effects on the body, and these must be looked at and not ignored. By knowing if you have a bad lever, cardiovascular problem, ect ect ect. You can actually go and fight against it by either using/dieting/training in way to prevent it

I´ve bought running shoes, never been af big fan of cardio but since it helps me stay healthy and now that i know i have a "condition" i try to stay af healthy as possible.

cardiovascular health is so important, especially with a condition like the one you have... i hope that you take good care of yourself (which it sounds that you will) and I wish you well my friend! Thanks for the info and take good care of yourself!

 

[blondebarber]

I'm a 36 yo female with Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy. Two years ago I had a Pacemaker/Defibrillator installed. I am currently working with a trainer that is fully aware of my condition and getting ready to have another stress echo done to find my gym limits.
Any info in this area would be helpful!,

I think too many people forget about their hearts.

 

[Headholio]

OK, so LVH can be a normal adaptation to exercise. I have a ventricular wall thickness outside normal limits myself, and not from roids.

But roids can also cause it. For example this study compared drug free and drug using bodybuilders and found more hypertrophy in the drug users:
Left ventricular size and function in elite... [Clin J Sport Med. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI

I can't see the link you posted, my work blocks that site. But I'm curious, how do you conclude that your condition is NOT steroid related? Also, Have you found any information on how this condition is dangerous? I think, thickening as a response to exercise is not dangerous, but thickening due to disease (cardiomayopathy) is dangerous as it is abnormal tissue with electrical disfunction and contractile problems. But what about roids? Are the changes equivalent (or related to) exercise adaptation, or do they cause a more pathological change?

 

[Essie]

^^^^^ Good question!

 

[Voijn]

From my research and another study that i have read:
50% of natural pro bodybuilders "lifting 6+ years hardcore" have LVH
100% of pro bodybuilders who used had LVH

I think that by when using steroids, you are able to become stronger then normal! i would imagine that the pro bodybuilders who did take steroids are way stronger and therefore their hearts have adapted to this weight.

LVH from high blood pressure or cardiovascular sickness of somekind is and should be looked at dangerous, because this is not a healthy adaption of the heart nor is high blood pressure normal?

Kinda makes sense, if people get LVH from training its because the heart adapts to assist the muscles when they are under tension.. The heart it self is under tension while deadlifting - squating and so on, i see no unnormal effect of why the heart should not adapt to this

by saying this steroids assist you in lifting more heavy, the heavyer you lift, the bigger you get? same goes for the heart? i dont think LVH is directly from steroids but from the strength gain of them

Doctors that scanned me said that it was just right under the limit for "problematic" but hey hello? I started out lifting weights at the age of 16, 181cm, 48kg "i had eating problems and was ULTRA skinny" first year i gained 25kgs next 20kgs thats 45kgs in 2years

almost 100% weightgain, i would imagine that my heart also enlarged by me increasing so much in weight by normal training and ultra bulking?

 

[Voijn]

does this sentes say all? Anabolic steroids may potentiate concentric left ventricular hypertrophy with decreasing ventricular compliance without affecting cardiac function.

 

[insanityapproved]

One thing that has to be kept in mind here:

One thing is LVH caused by weight training (or any other strenous sports activity) pretty much all elite athletes have it. Marathon runners and other endurance athletes actually often have it worse than bodybuilders.

Another thing is LVH caused by increased blood pressure, stress, lack of exercise and an unhealthy sedentary lifestyle. This is not an adaptation to a real situation but rather damage that has been caused by people trashing their bodies.


Let me give you another example which is closely linked to this one.
Stress hormones are usually referred to as the "bad guys" which is NOT true at all.

Let's look at 2 scenarios.

1. A basketball player in the middle of a very important game. Stress hormones are at their peak and they will help him focus better, be stronger, run faster, jump and fight harder. That's what they do and that's how we have evolved because of such situations where top performance is required (for example dangerous situations or hunting etc.)

2. A guy is sitting at front of his TV, eating pizza and when he hears some bad news on the TV he goes crazy about it. His stress hormones are also at their peak but the body has no use with them as he is in no real situation where he would need to perform or do anything. It's his imagination that causes their release.

The first situation is GOOD. It's a the body's natural response and when the game is over, the guy will be able to relax and he will feel great.
The second one is BAD. For the obvious reasons. The guy's body will think it's in fight or flight situation but there is no fight and no flight either. This is called messing up your natural hormonal balance.


Hope someone will understand what I was trying to demonstrate with this example. And the situation in very similar when it comes to LVH.

 

[Voijn]

Stress hormones.. when they play a game i think your talking about the flee or fight hormones wich is noradrenalin and adrenaline, they help concract the heart much harder and makes it pump alot faster
The movie lets take him to the greek -> gets an adrenalin rush and is all over the place

LVH caused from training and or steroids is not the same as LVH causes by diseases such as diabites or high blood pressure.

But your explaination is very nice thanks! good info

 

[Voijn]

Little is known about the structure of athletes' hearts or anatomic variations associated with training. Echocardiograms of 56 active athletes were obtained. Mean left ventricular end-diastolic volume and mass were increased in athletes involved in isotonic exercise, such as swimming (181 ml, 308 g) and running (160 ml, 302 g), compared with controls (101 ml, 211 g); wall thickness was normal (≤ 12 mm). Athletes involved in isometric exercise, such as wrestling and shot putting, had normal mean left ventricular end-diastolic volumes (110 ml, 122 ml), but increased wall thickness (13 to 14 mm) and mass (330 g, 348 g). Thus, athletes participating in isotonic exercise had increased left ventricular mass with cardiac changes similar to those in chronic volume overloads. Athletes participating in isometric exercise had increased left ventricular mass with cardiac changes similar to those in chronic pressure loads. Recognizing greater left ventricular mass and volume in well-trained athletes aids in interpreting values deviating from "normal" limits.

 

[Headholio]

Looking around on the internets a little bit, I can not find a definitive statement that exercise induced LVH (or athletes heart), is NOT a concern....

Got any links on that?

 

[Voijn]

Well as explained LVH is a natural adaption. If the statements are correct, woudent every elite sports guy die young and suffer from ill effects?

you might think about that alot of people that are in the gym or doing high level sports actually have this without knowing it. Ill try find some, try do your research too.

 

[mryar]

Not well understood from what I gather, but androgen receptor is found extensively in the cardiovascular system. First study says estrogen protects against hypertrophy of the heart.
Androgen-Androgen Receptor System Protects against Angiotensin II-Induced Vascular Remodeling
Androgen stimulates endothel... [Am J Physiol Heart Circ Physiol. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI
Also androgens increase red blood cell counts and that thickens blood causing problems as well. Have to give blood or eat/drink grapefruit or take the extract naringin.

 

[Voijn]

dont really understand the last sentence about giving blood - drinking grapefruit or taking naringin could cause LVH ?

 

[Voijn]

Methods and Results—The hypothesis of divergent cardiac adaptations in endurance-trained and strength-trained athletes was tested by applying meta-analytical techniques with the assumption of a random study effects model incorporating all published echocardiographic data on structure and function of male athletes engaged in purely dynamic (running) or static (weight lifting, power lifting, bodybuilding, throwing, wrestling) sports and combined dynamic and static sports (cycling and rowing). The analysis encompassed 59 studies and 1451 athletes. The overall mean relative left ventricular wall thickness of control subjects (0.36 mm) was significantly smaller than that of endurance-trained athletes (0.39 mm, P=0.001), combined endurance- and strength-trained athletes (0.40 mm, P=0.001), or strength-trained athletes (0.44 mm, P<0.001). There was a significant difference between the 3 groups of athletes and control subjects with respect to left ventricular internal diameter (P<0.001), posterior wall thickness (P<0.001), and interventricular septum thickness (P<0.001). In addition, endurance-trained athletes and strength-trained athletes differed significantly with respect to mean relative wall thickness (0.39 versus 0.44, P=0.006) and interventricular septum thickness (10.5 versus 11.8 mm, P=0.005) and showed a trend toward a difference with respect to posterior wall thickness (10.3 versus 11.0 mm, P=0.078) and left ventricular internal diameter (53.7 versus 52.1 mm, P=0.055). With respect to cardiac function, there were no significant differences between athletes and control subjects in left ventricular ejection fraction, fractional shortening, and E/A ratio.

Conclusions—Results of this meta-analysis regarding athlete’s heart confirm the hypothesis of divergent cardiac adaptations in dynamic and static sports. Overall, athlete’s heart demonstrated normal systolic and diastolic cardiac functions.

 

[Voijn]

Such a big topic, but not that many that want to speak..

 

[mryar]

dont really understand the last sentence about giving blood - drinking grapefruit or taking naringin could cause LVH ?

I was thinking the increased vascularity with the increased red blood count (thicker blood) would result in more load and coupled with androgen receptors in cardiac muscle and high androgen serum content could lead to LVH. It would be a compensatory response having all the right conditions (androgens/nutrients/load) for hypertrophy.

Androgen receptors mediate hypertrophy in cardia... [Circulation. 1998] - PubMed - NCBI
CONCLUSIONS:

Androgen receptors are present in cardiac myocytes from multiple species, including normal men and women, in a context that permits androgens to modulate the cardiac phenotype and produce hypertrophy by direct, receptor-specific mechanisms. There are clinical implications for therapeutic or illicit use of androgens in humans.

 

[Voijn]

dont really understand what u just wrote can u translate?

 

[Headholio]

I'm a 36 yo female with Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy. Two years ago I had a Pacemaker/Defibrillator installed. I am currently working with a trainer that is fully aware of my condition and getting ready to have another stress echo done to find my gym limits.
Any info in this area would be helpful!,

I think too many people forget about their hearts.

Do you know why you have this problem? Do you have high blood pressure? I read that ARB's (angiotension receptor blockers)are most effective at reducing heart size, but I'm not sure if that applies even if you don't have high blood pressure. Can't find the article right now.

 

[Voijn]

Bump lets keep this running. You people afraid of looking into the truth?

No one thats got LVH or any other kind of heart issus from use or just regular lifting.