Ketosis and fat burning

[Ted_SFD]

I've read here a lot of interesting things about the keto diet, but unfortunalely I can't find one issue.The question is, if ketostrix shows that you are in ketosis, is fat burnig in progress then, even if the fat income from meals is not so high ? I mean I eat about 200g protein daily, and I don't control the fat income anymore. I have noticed very slow weight drop for last three weeks. Maybe I don't eat enough of fat ? Somebody said that if you stop loosing weight on CKD diet you should increase a fat income from meals ?

Thank in advance for any info

 

[Kate]

Ted's problem

Hello, Ted. I have just read your article, which made me think for a moment about your problem. I don't think you should cut down on fat because this is not the way. Just relax, and visit your gym regurarly. As far as eating, why do you ignore drinking? A glass of alko doesn't kill people, so why not try to relax in this way?There are many occasions to stop thinking about the problem of the fat amount. The simplest example is to go to the party tonight, dress down, buy a bottle and relax with friends

Your private doctor

 

[Ted_SFD]

Kate, don't make me mad
I need serious advice !

P.S. See you tonight

 

[PwB]

well, if u want to make more serious progress start keeping track of calories. You have no idea where your at b/c u don't keep track. Not, while it is possible your calories overall are too low, that your body is giving a starvation response, it is doubtful b/c u said u eat fat unrestricted.

SO, u have to create a calorie defecit, either exercise more or eat less. If you are getting 1g protein per lb. bodyweight, and carbs are very low, calories need to be LOWERED from fat sources. Just b/c your in ketosis doesnt mean you automatically lose bodyfat, u still need to cut calories, its basic thermodynamics and u can't beat mother nature on this one.

Also make sure u are lifting and ditch the ketostix, the deepness they show is irrelevent to fat loss and will show less ketonuria as you continue to adapt to the diet.

 

[Kid Dynamite]

lousy laws of thermodynamics...
anyway, like PwB said, you gotta keep track of cals. Write down what you eat for 3 days, get a base for calories and cut some from that (from fat)

 

[Ted_SFD]

PwB, I'm on keto diet for 10 weeks and at the begining I counted what I ate.
Now I care only for enough protein supply and don't control fat. I'm sure there isn't too much fat in my daily intake. Maybe this is a clue.
To put it another way, is any chance to keep losing weight on keto diet even if your daily fat intake is too low (lets say 100-120g) ? Currently my weight is 277 lbs.

 

[PwB]

It all comes down to calories in the end, no, fat loss wont be affected if fat is to low (to a point, fat generally should never be below say 15% of calories, but this isn't an issue with your diet). OK, well how many grams of protein a day are you eating. I would stick with the simple formula of 1g per lb. of bodyweight, so you should be eating about 270g protein a day. OK, this comes out to 1080 calories. if you ate 100-120g fat a day, this is an additional 900 to 1080 calories. Assuming no carbs, this gives a calorie range of 1980 to 2160 calories, which yes, would most likely be too low for you. The range of calories for fat loss varies but as a general rule between 8-12x bodyweight works best. Try aiming for 2770 calories (BW * 10) and see how fat loss goes, if you are losing at a steady rate (1-2lbs a week) perfect, if not (and give it 2 weeks) we'll change things up.

 

[LaviathanX]

Fat intake IS a concern. Fat is converted to glucose at about 10-15% efficency (I don't know the precise #), and protein is converted to glucose at a ~57% efficiency. Carbohydrates are 100%. So it makes sense to eat more fat and less protein. But the general rule is to eat .08g-1g of protein per 1lb of bodyweight, and have the rest be fats. If you're 277lbs, eat 277g of protein per day (give or take), which amounts to 1,108 calories. Your BMR is 3324 (bodyweight in lbs * 12), so you need to consume 2216 calories in fat, or 246 grams. Make sure you're taking into account the hidden carb calories. Just subract it from the fat intake, no biggie. Use that file I sent you.

277g protein
246g fat
0g carbs (yeah right...)

Then reduce your caloric intake by 5% the first day, 10% the second, 15% the third and fourth, and 10% the fifth. Then carb up. Hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[PwB]

Fat is 10% anti-ketogenic, and protein converts to glucose at 58% efficiency. OK, but how the hell do you know his BMR. MANY people are at a calorie defecit at 12x their bodyweight, I'd like to know how you know this is how many calories he burns at rest. And why is fat intake such a concern, what it comes down to is calories. In terms of ketosis, fat has no effect, ketosis can be attained with high fat or no fat. You seem to fall into the belief that ketogenic diets must be very high fat, if this is the case you are very wrong. Ketosis has very little meaning in terms of fat loss overall. 187 grams fat will be sufficient and with 270g protein will provide 10x bodyweight in calories. No need to cycle calories during the week, its just a pain in the ass and isn't AT ALL necessary unless you want to keep track of different calorie levels each day of the week.

 

[LaviathanX]

Yeah, cycling cals might be a pain for some, but for me, I just leave out a string cheese or a scoop of this or that. Mr. X recommends doing this, so go tell him that he's wrong.

The BMR is an estimate. Everybody estimates their BMR. IMO, it's better to underestimate it than overestimate it. At any rate, you told him to aim for 8x-12x, then settled at 10x, so I think you should read your post first. That's way less than 12x. Maybe my math is wrong?

I must have been seeing things when Lyle McDonald, Dan Duchaine, and many many people on this board recommend a 75%:25% fatrotein ratio. Sometime days even higher. Maybe it has nothing to do with actually getting into ketosis, but to make this diet the most effective, that's what should be used as a guideline. If not, then a zero carb, zero/low fat, high protein diet should be spreading like wildfire all over this board.

Ok, whaaaaaaaatever, I'm outta here. auly:

 

[PwB]

Wow, u really are NOT up to date on any research or information on ketogenic dieting. Start off reading THE book on ketogenic dieting, Lyle McDonald's "The Ketogenic Diet". Mr X writes some good articles, (and if he keeps up to date with the research, he'd agree the ratios need not be adhered to, if not, he's just wrong)but no one knows more about ketogenic diets than Lyle, and I've conversed on-line with him personally, as well as read it strait from his book, that the ratio of protein to fat (70% fat, 30% protein is actually what Duchaine reccommends in BodyOpus) means absolutely nothing in terms of fat loss or adapting to ketosis. Again, a diet of 100% protein will allow just as deep ketosis as 30% protein, if protein levels are the same (obviously calories wouldnt be) Fat just acts as a calorie ballast to prevent too much of a slowing of metabolic rate in a ketogenic diet, as well as to provide food varietiy, fullness, EFA's, test. production. You are VERY WRONG, and need to keep up to date on the info, your spouting info thats dead wrong and its been for years (hell, at least since 98 when Lyle wrote his book)

BMR is Basal Metabolic Rate, calories burned at rest. I said 8-12 calories per lb. bodyweight for fat loss, I didnt say this is his BMR. And actually, the majority of bodybuilders don't follow a high fat, low/no carb diet. Most follow a high protein, moderate or low carb, moderate or low fat diet for precontest. But u don't seem to know much about dieting other than Duchaine's outdated BodyOpus book (which is a great, entertaining book, BTW).

 

[Ted_SFD]

Pwb great info. I'll follow your directions for next two weeks and we'll see. Furthermore, I need to put my hands on Lyle McDonald's book, it seems like best sorce of knowledge abot ketodiet.
Anyway, today is my carbup day so finally some bread potatoes and orange juice (not some aspartam shit )
Have a great weekend

 

[shackabolan]

I thought one of the primary reasons for a higher fat intake was to avoid entering a primarily gluconeogenisis state, or using protein as the predominant energy source. with a higher fat intake theoretically you would experience less muscle catabolizing. Once you enter a gluconeogenesis dominant state it's challenging to keep the body from catabolizing the energy expensive muscle. As far as the body is concerned protein is protein (muscle) and in a panic sitation (Ketosis) it will use any means necessary to survive. It's easier to breakdown burdenous muscle rather than wait for another protein refeed. Eating higherfat for most people on ketogenic diet is mandatory to maintain muscle.

 

[MrMakaveli]

The only reason to add fat to a ketogenic diet is too keep calories from going too low. Fat is NOT required to hold on to your muscle. If you fill the brains glucose needs for the day plus a little extra for lifting, etc but protein is still low-enough to establish ketosis muscle will not be catabolized unless you are very very lean, in which case sort of a anti-ketosis measure is developed by the body.

 

[MrMakaveli]

The above being said.feed the body only whey protein and it will use muscle for energy due to the rate whey enters the blood-stream, so stick with meat.

 

[PwB]

MrMakaveli, on your last 2 posts. Right and right (except perhaps the last part about the anti-ketosis. What is happening basically is very low levels of leptin screwing up other hormones, making the brain sense starvation. At this point (very lean) muscle might be sacrificed no matter what diet unless taking steroids. Ketosis wont stop, just that muscle will be cannibalized regardless b/c at very lean many people are near death and the way the body ultimately works is to lose muscle and fat relatively evenly so that when death is reached, the body has depleted muscle and fat fairly evenly) . Besides, that, listen to the man.