Juve - BrandonXJ Diet Workshop

[BrandonXJ]

Juve mentioned he'd help me with the diet, and we'd do this in a public forum so hopefully this can help someone else down the road in a similar situation. Feel free to jump in with your comments.

Stats
156 - 5'6 - 16%BF

Level of Activity
3-4 workouts a week
M - Legs, Chest - Heavy Intensity - Late night (90 mins)
W - Triceps, Bi, Back - Medium Intensity - Late night (90 mins)
F or Sat - Chest, back - Low Intensity - Late night (Friday) or afternoon (Saturday) (60 mins)
2-3 hours of cardio a week (usually around 30 mins at a time before workouts, 6.0mph)
I've also been toying around with the idea of getting up early (7AM and running for 20-30 minutes at a slow pace)

Desired Results
Reduce bodyfat while gaining overall muscle mass

Medium Metabolism, not insulin sensitive.

Only other additions to diet would be EC stack (25/200mg 3x a day), multivitamin, and possibly creatine. I will be starting a sust cycle (500mg wk), but that's a month or two out, and really not the focus of this diet.

You can see what I've attempted to do as far as diet wise below. I assume they'll be some changes made before we're done.

Again, I'd like to thank Juve for his time and willingness to help me out.





Breakfast 8:00AM
1 1/4 Cup Shredded Wheat w/ Bran
1 cup 1% milk
2 scoop protein shake
--------------------------------------------------
403 Calories - 4g Fat - 62g Carb - 38g Protein

10:00AM
1 Plain Medium Bagel
2 tbsp ANPB
--------------------------------------------------
383 Calories - 17g fat - 7g carb - 8g protein

12:00PM
2 Slice Multigrain Bread
2oz Turkey Breast
1oz Swiss Cheese
1 medium orange
--------------------------------------------------
344 Calories - 9g fat - 17g carb - 18g protein

2:00
1 scoop protein shake
1 cup lowfat fruit yogurt
--------------------------------------------------
391 Calories - 8g fat - 53carb - 55 protein

Dinner (5-6PM)
1 Perdue Chicken Breast
1 cup brown rice
----------------------------------------------------
356 Calories - 4g fat - 45 carb - 27 protein


9:00-10:00PM (Post Workout)
2 Scoop protein Shake
----------------------------------------------------
241 Calories - 5g fat - 6g carb - 44 protein


TOTAL
Calories 2228

Fat 48g (20%)
Sat - 16
Poly - 7
Mono - 12

Carbs 253 (42%)
Fiber - 24

Protein 212 (39%)

 

[BrandonXJ]

I'm thinking I should drop that orange at lunch, to lose those extra carbs.. 253g a day seems high..not sure if I should replace it with anything?

 

[MrMakaveli]

I'm thinking I should drop that orange at lunch, to lose those extra carbs.. 253g a day seems high..not sure if I should replace it with anything?

Skip the creatine, it's not really anti-catabolic IMHO and may spare fat-mass, which isnt a good thing.

J Appl Physiol 2002 Aug 16; [epub ahead of print]

Creatine supplementation influences substrate utilization at rest.

Huso ME, Hampl JS, Johnston CS, Swan PD.

Department of Nutrition, Arizona State University, Mesa, AZ, USA.

The influence of creatine supplementation on substrate utilization during rest was investigated using a double-blind crossover design. Ten active men participated in 12 weeks of weight training and were given creatine and placebo (20 g/d for 4 d, then 2 g/d for 17 d) in two trials separated by a 4-week washout. Body composition, substrate utilization, and strength were assessed following week 2, 5, 9 and 12. Maximal isometric contraction (1-RM) leg press increased significantly (P < 0.05) following both treatments but 1-RM bench press was increased (33 kg +/- 8, P < 0.05) only following creatine. Total body mass increased (1.6 kg +/- 0.5, P < 0.05) after creatine but not after placebo. Significant (P < 0.05) increases in fat-free mass were found following both creatine (1.9 kg +/- 0.8) and placebo (2.2 kg +/- 0.7) supplementation. Fat mass did not change significantly with creatine, but decreased after the placebo trial (-2.4 kg +/- 0.8, P < 0.05). Carbohydrate oxidation was increased by creatine (8.9% +/- 4.0, P < 0.05), while there was a trend for increased RER after creatine supplementation (0.03 +/- 0.01, P = 0.07). Changes in substrate oxidation may influence the inhibition of fat mass loss associated with creatine following weight training.

 

[BrandonXJ]

Skip the creatine, it's not really anti-catabolic IMHO and may spare fat-mass, which isnt a good thing.

Thanks.. I had never taken it before, and I was just thinking about it, but I'll probably save the $$$ and skip it.

 

[JKurz1]

If you are TRULY trying to get shredded, I'm betting you'll need to eliminate the bread, cheese, milk and yogurt.......so, in other words, revamp your entire diet...........but, if you just want to lose a few pounds, then just stay in a caloric deficit........

 

[bran987]

Breakfast 8:00AM
1 1/4 Cup Shredded Wheat w/ Bran

don't eat me

what bf % are you trying to get down to? at 5'6" 16% 156 lbs you have 25 lbs. of fat on you. To get down to 10% you're going to have to lose 10 lbs. of fat and be down to 146 lbs.. and that's at 100% fat loss which is impossible. are you trying to get shrepped like jkurz said or are you just trying to get down to a BF level low enough to start a bulking phase?

 

[BrandonXJ]

are you just trying to get down to a BF level low enough to start a bulking phase?

yep!

 

[juve]

If you are TRULY trying to get shredded, I'm betting you'll need to eliminate the bread, cheese, milk and yogurt.

I agree absolutely - all that has to go.
For carbs look into: oats, oatbran, oat grain, barley, cream of wheat, green leafy veggies. At least a bowl or two of green leafy veggies - they are not calorie dense, but are filling, contain an abundance of nutrients including minerals (potassium, calcium) ad fiber. Ok, I'm not seeing that bagel, nix it. Same goes with that orange. Keep all carbs moderate or lower GI and consume the most amt of carbs PWO only.
For protein sources you're relying on either shakes or inadequate sources pirmarily; opt for fresh meats, fish (canned if you can stomach the taste), eggs/egg whites. Protein shakes use after workout, maybe before bed, but I'd go for a more sustainable protein source - solid food.
EFA's: 2-3tbsp fish oil, 2-3tbsp flax oil - include 1-2tbsp of oil before a workout with moderate amount of carbs and portein. A tbsp or two of oil (especially fish oil) is great upon waking upon (suppresses inflammation and inflammatory enzymes) and before bed, to sustain nutrient uptake over night.


Training: I'm not a big expert but whichever routine works for you, go for it. After training go for a high pro + mod/high carb meal - 2scoops protein don't cut it. Have another meal about 2 hours afterwards before bed: protein+fats+fiber (flax seeds, nuts, green leafy veggies, fiber supps)
Cardio: I am a proponent of high intensity cardio routine; yes I know on empty stomach, etc etc etc. But high intensity cardio offers its benefits: upregulate metabolism, increase insulin sensitivity and fat oxidation and storage by muscle (vs adipose) tissue, upregulate adaptogenic stress system, CNS and peripheral stimulation, plus cardiovascular benefits. Walking at a slow pace, is just that - walking and burning fat, without other benefits.
Before cradio: low fat + mod/high carb +mod pro meal; After cardio: same as after workout.
Supps: have you looked into nutraceuticals? Are you sure you understand what insulin sensitivity means?
Keep the thermogenics if you want, I am not a big fan - stimulate CNS through activity as opposed to pills. Also, as far as thermogenics there are plenty of more efficient alternatives.
I would also restructure your training timing, but that's it for now, I still have a few exams left, so I'll get back as son as I can.
peace~

 

[juve]

One more thing:
When I say moderate (as mod carbs) I mean around 30g's carbs, high would be 40-50g's at most, more than that is unnecessary, but if you feel you have inadequate stores of immediate energy (necessary for more intense output) opt for splitting carbs in several meals as opposed to eating one high carb meal.
When the intensity of your activities is low, consume pro+fat meals, as you needn't any anaerobic source of enrgy.

Also fruit are good carbs, either before and especially post workout. But don't just munch on apples if you sit on your ass. And, no, I don't buy into theory that fruit makes you fat, but I can come up with a 988768745 of other things that make you fat.
Fruit=good, just consume it adequately to support your activities.

 

[BrandonXJ]

Ok, here we go again.. try this one out and see what ya think.

Breakfast 8:00AM
2 Eggs raw - in the shake
2 scoop protein
1/2 cup oatmeal - in shake
2tbsp fish oil - in shake
--------------------------------------------
707 calories, 43g fat, 23g carb, 64g protein

10:00AM
1/2 cup cottage cheese
2 tbsp ANPB
---------------------------------------------
288 calories, 20g fat, 10g carb, 21g protein

12:00
3oz chicken breast slice
3oz turkey breast slice
small salad
----------------------------------------------
497 calories, 27g fat, 20 carb, 47 protein

2:00
1 scoop protein shake
2 tbsp flax seed oil
----------------------------------------------
361 calories, 30g fat, 3g carb, 22g protein


Dinner
1 Chicken Breast
2 cup stirfry veggies
-------------------------------------
355 calories, 3g fat, 48g carb, 42g protein

9-10 (post workout)
2 scoop protein shake
1/2 cup oatmeal
-------------------------------------
313 calories, 6g fat, 22g carb, 46g protein


Totals

Calories 2522
Fat 128g 47%
Sat 25g
Poly 50
Mono 34

Carbs 125 14%

Protein 235 38%

Seems a bit high in calories and fat to me, but that's probably due to the addition of the fish and flax seed oil.

 

[ProtienFiend]

Looks better... and remember FAT DOESNT MAKE YOU FAT!

Dietary fat and body fat do not correspond 1:1.

 

[BrandonXJ]

Looks better... and remember FAT DOESNT MAKE YOU FAT!

Dietary fat and body fat do not correspond 1:1.

Thanks for the input! That's a good point, I'll keep that in mind.

 

[Omegasox]

Carbs look awful low if you're going to be working out and doing cardio. But as long as you don't feel groggy and run down, stick with it. I've cut my carbs to ~180 and I'm beat throughout most of the day even with 8-10 hours of sleep.

 

[BrandonXJ]

Carbs look awful low if you're going to be working out and doing cardio. But as long as you don't feel groggy and run down, stick with it. I've cut my carbs to ~180 and I'm beat throughout most of the day even with 8-10 hours of sleep.

I'm currently running on about 40-50g carbs with cardio and lifting, so I think this should help!

 

[JKurz1]

I'm currently running on about 40-50g carbs with cardio and lifting, so I think this should help!

i HOPE YOU MEAN WITH EACH MEAL!

Looing at your diet, 3/4th of your carb intake is coming at night..........reverse that to your first three meals and you'll see better results.......assuming you train in the afternoon..........

 

[BrandonXJ]

i HOPE YOU MEAN WITH EACH MEAL!

Looing at your diet, 3/4th of your carb intake is coming at night..........reverse that to your first three meals and you'll see better results.......assuming you train in the afternoon..........

Nope.. That's for a whole day right now.. which is why we're doing this "get brandon a real diet" thread!

Yep, I do train later in the day so you have a good point, I'll look at restructuring that to flip the carbs before the workout.

 

[juve]

Jkurz brings up a good point, and something I would like to suggest: is there any way to restructure a little bit your training routine. Leave cardio in the AM - BTW have you decided what type of cardio routine to follow?
Seeing as you want to do cardio only 3 times a week at most, can you shift your workouts earlier in the afternoon - that way you will have an advantage of a more adequate nutrient intake post-workout to aid recuperation, plus your metabolism will be elevated throughout the day, which gives way for more efficient energy repartitioning. Also I don't like the idea of carbs before going to sleep, by the time you hit the bed they should be fully assimilated - another reason for moving your wkout to an earlier point in the day.

 

[BrandonXJ]

Jkurz brings up a good point, and something I would like to suggest: is there any way to restructure a little bit your training routine. Leave cardio in the AM - BTW have you decided what type of cardio routine to follow?
Seeing as you want to do cardio only 3 times a week at most, can you shift your workouts earlier in the afternoon - that way you will have an advantage of a more adequate nutrient intake post-workout to aid recuperation, plus your metabolism will be elevated throughout the day, which gives way for more efficient energy repartitioning. Also I don't like the idea of carbs before going to sleep, by the time you hit the bed they should be fully assimilated - another reason for moving your wkout to an earlier point in the day.

No, unfortunately with full time work and 12 credit hours school, the only time I can work out is closer to 8:30 at night, unless it's on saturday, which I can possibly do during the afternoon. I was thinking 1/2 hour cardio M, W, TH, FRI in the AM (tuesday morning off after my leg workout on monday nights). Also, I usually do about 15-20 minutes cardio before each workout (nothing hard core, 5-7 minute warm up walk and the rest jogging around 5mph).

 

[bran987]

No, unfortunately with full time work and 12 credit hours school, the only time I can work out is closer to 8:30 at night, unless it's on saturday, which I can possibly do during the afternoon. I was thinking 1/2 hour cardio M, W, TH, FRI in the AM (tuesday morning off after my leg workout on monday nights). Also, I usually do about 15-20 minutes cardio before each workout (nothing hard core, 5-7 minute warm up walk and the rest jogging around 5mph).

you mean you don't structure your whole life around working out???
I 3rd the recommendation about rearranging your carbs

 

[ProtienFiend]

ok, seems like were beating a dead horse here but:

dieting is not rocket science. the more activity you do, the more you can eat. you should also arrange your carbohydrates around these activity periods as they will be USED instead of STORED. that is the whole basis really about nutrient timing: EAT WHEN YOU'RE BODY IS GOING TO USE IT. If you're sitting around in an office all day you need minimal amounts of glucose present in the body. the protien you eat will actually be used to supply this small amount so there is no need to actually supplement with dietary carbohydrates. If you know youre going to be active, eat some oatmeal, fruits, etc...

with that said, i highly recommend a WORKOUT DAY diet and an REST DAY diet. Workout day should have between 100-200g of carbs (including shake) and the non-workout day should have less than 50g and slightly less calories (500cal or so)

I was actually going to make a lengthy post on this subject but I ran into technical difficulties and the post was erased. it was basically a compilation of information: CKD, Animalbolics, Warrior Diets... with my own spin on it using concepts from each.

 

[BrandonXJ]

Makes sense to me.. what about carbs and post workout? If I was going to run in the AM, I'd assume I could leave the 1/2 cup oatmeal in the shake.. and maybe take it out the days I'm not running in the AM. What about the PM lifting? Are carbs needed with the protein afterwards?

 

[sawastea]

Brandon, I have a pretty nifty .xls sheet that can aid in determining your final BMR. I have your height and weight. What is your age?

 

[BrandonXJ]

Thanks man! I'm 25.

Last time I tried to figure it out I think I got somewhere around 1720.

 

[juve]

Do not rely on formulas and numbers!! Assess your energy expenditure/uptake in relationship to your desired goals/and activities - progress in them will indicate you're on the right track, regress....well you understand. Formulas cannot be applicable to each individual due to numerous reasons - these estimates do not include any pathologies (being insulin resistant - ie diabetic - will preclude you from attaining your desired results because the formula doesn't say that you shouldn't be eating carbs except post-workout when your body is most insulin sensitive), level of activity, the over all hormonal/metabolic composition of individuals. You have 'clean', nutrient rich foods - all you need is timing and training, which itself requires adequate nutrition. Go from this point, not from a dubiously derived number which really means nothing.

 

[ProtienFiend]

Excellent post from Juve!

I was making a similar one until my net went down. But he covered most of it!

Somethings to look for (mostly insulin related):

Tendency to hold chest/abdominal/hip fat
Lethargy after eating carbs
More-than-normal bloating after eating carbs (wheat, etc..)

I would like to add sawastea is a great bro and I know he had good intentions.

 

[sawastea]

I hate you all!!!


25 Age
156 Weight in pounds
66 Height in inches
0.5 Activity factor: .3 sedentary, .5 moderate, .75 heavy

1705.654545 Basal Metabolic rate
852.8272727 Caloric Expenditure during activity (Activity factor)
170.5654545 thermic effect of food

2387.916364 Final BMR

2887.916364 Eat this many cals/day to gain one pound per week
1887.916364 Eat this many cals/day to lose one pound per week

 

[bran987]

I hate you all!!!


25 Age
156 Weight in pounds
66 Height in inches
0.5 Activity factor: .3 sedentary, .5 moderate, .75 heavy

1705.654545 Basal Metabolic rate
852.8272727 Caloric Expenditure during activity (Activity factor)
170.5654545 thermic effect of food

2387.916364 Final BMR

2887.916364 Eat this many cals/day to gain one pound per week
1887.916364 Eat this many cals/day to lose one pound per week

it's so cool when he does that

 

[juve]

I hate you all!!!

I you dude!

 

[BrandonXJ]

Ok peoples.. round 3, thanks so much for the help thus far. I've changed things up a little bit, 2 slightly different diets based on workout/non workout day plus a big change to the post workout shake. Let me know what you think this time. Changes/notes in italics.


Breakfast 8:00AM
2 Eggs raw - in the shake (only 2 if following previous nights workout, 1 regular days)
2 scoop protein
1/2 cup oatmeal - in shake (only following previous nights workout, regular days, no oatmeal)
2tbsp fish oil - in shake
--------------------------------------------
Following previous night workout - (710 calories - 44g fat - 21 carb - 61 protein)
Workout Days (551 calories - 37g fat - 5g carb - 51 protein)


10:00AM
1/2 cup cottage cheese
2 tbsp ANPB
---------------------------------------------
288 calories, 20g fat, 10g carb, 21g protein

12:00
3oz chicken breast slice
3oz turkey breast slice

----------------------------------------------
470 calories, 27g fat - 20 carb - 42 protein

2:00
1 scoop protein shake
2 tbsp flax seed oil
----------------------------------------------
361 calories, 30g fat, 3g carb, 22g protein


Dinner
1 Chicken Breast
2 cup stirfry veggies
small salad (moved from lunch to dinner)
-------------------------------------
373 calories - 3g fat - 51 carb - 44 protein

9-10 (post workout)
2 scoop protein shake
1 egg (in shake)
Carb mixture (dextose, sucrose, glucose.. whatever) 35g
Gatorade drink (3/4 scoop poweder)
Multivitamin
-------------------------------------
422 cals, 10g fat, 51g carb, 51g protein

Ok, so I tried to modify the diet slightly for workout and non workout days. It turns out the non-workout days will have higher carb ratio (due to the morning after workout shake..) and more calories not sure if that makes sense or not. Should it be the other way around, but maybe moving the morning carbs (oatmeal in the shake) on the workout day to 2:00pm?
Also, I did some reading in this book called "nutrient timing" that basically stated that after working out your muscles are really insulin sensitive, and by increasing your protein/carb/electrolyte intake right after working out you'll move from a catabolic to anabolic state much quicker. Thus the "carb mixture" added to the post workout shake, along with the gatorade. Gatorade was included to get the electrolytes, plus the 15g sugar it contains is pretty high GI (it was listed at 91) and then the 35g of carbs (dextrose, sucrose, glucose.. not sure what will be added.. thinking honey?).

Totals
Workout Day
2465 calories, 118g fat, 140g carb, 234g protein

Non - workout Day
2624 calories, 125g fat, 156g carb, 244g protein

 

[JKurz1]

You need to use fitday or some calorie counter cause you are way off......there are def. no carbs in chicken or protein......veggies and salad = 51g of carbs???? Thats a ton! You don't need gatorade and dextrose.....AND, Ive never been a fan of low carb regimines, so I don't know much on the topic.......I like carbs at every meal and then switch to more fiberous ones post-workout............

 

[juve]

Also, I did some reading in this book called "nutrient timing" that basically stated that after working out your muscles are really insulin sensitive, and by increasing your protein/carb/electrolyte intake right after working out you'll move from a catabolic to anabolic state much quicker. Thus the "carb mixture" added to the post workout shake, along with the gatorade.

Damn boy, we've been schooling you on this 'glucose sensitivity' this whole thread and you get it from a book * sigh *

 

[JKurz1]

Damn boy, we've been schooling you on this 'glucose sensitivity' this whole thread and you get it from a book * sigh *

that's EXACTLY what I was thinking, but then I thought it was just me.....geez bro - if you ask for help, read the responses...........

 

[BrandonXJ]

You need to use fitday or some calorie counter cause you are way off......there are def. no carbs in chicken or protein......veggies and salad = 51g of carbs???? Thats a ton! You don't need gatorade and dextrose.....AND, Ive never been a fan of low carb regimines, so I don't know much on the topic.......I like carbs at every meal and then switch to more fiberous ones post-workout............

I am using fitday... check it yo.

Vegetables, mixed, frozen, cooked, boiled, drained, with salt      package (10 oz) yieldscup  215 1 48 10 
Mixed salad greens, raw      cup, shredded or choppedQuantity not specified  18 0 3 2

that's 48g+3g o' carbs. maybe fitday is crazy.

As far as the 3oz turkey +3oz chicken having 15g of carbs, I think something is screwey.

Luncheon slice, meatless-beef, chicken, salami or turkey      regular slice (1 oz)thin sliceQuantity not specified  470 27 15 42

meatless beef? is that vegetarian?

 

[BrandonXJ]

that's EXACTLY what I was thinking, but then I thought it was just me.....geez bro - if you ask for help, read the responses...........

guys, I'm just trying to learn here, not piss anyone off. you're explaining alot at a time, and when I read the section on that book it just made sense. sorry I didn't catch on sooner..

 

[JKurz1]

I don't need to check it YO to know that there are NO carbs in any beefs, or meats that you might buy from a butcher.........now, if you are using a processed food or some shit like that, God only knows what they put in em................

 

[BrandonXJ]

ok guys.. thanks for the help, I think I got the basic ideas.. I'll make a few changes and start chowing down and we'll see how it goes.

 

[bran987]

I hold high hopes for you.. us Brandons' must stick together

 

[BrandonXJ]

Thanks! I'm pretty sure I got it all worked out now, I'm glad everyone posted some responses, it really helped me to learn quite a bit.