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It's NOT Possible to Keep Gains Indefinitely

D

decem

New member
your body will eventually go back to it's natural state. it's not comfortable having extra muscle on its frame and it doesn't have the capability to keep that muscle.

a few different theories as to why you might have heard that people "keep their gains" after a cycle:

1. they end up taking a minimal amount of time off the juice, so they therefore are introducing more exogenous androgens before their body has had time to regulate itself back to its natural state... giving the illusion that they kept what they gained..

2. they were not at their peak size and shape before they started the steroid cycle, and afterwards, they were able to maintain themselves at a level that would have been quite possible to reach without the aid of aas.

so while we'd all like to say that the next one is our "last cycle"... you should know that it won't be. you should know that you cannot maintain what you gain off a cycle for longer than four to six months if you're not taking any type of performance enhancing drugs. you will eventually come back down to where your body feels comfortable.. and if you did any permanent damage to your body during the course of this anabolic steroid usage, no matter how minuscule, it will have been done in vain...

i just wanted to let all the newbies know that once they step in the arena.. that #1 - they should do it safely.. and #2 there's no getting out.. unless they're willing to accept being normal once again... and who the fuck can do that?


that's the way i see it anyway.. any posts on why i'm wrong would be appreciated..
 
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If you are referring to a crash then, I will have to disagree. My first cycle ever was an awesome one! I gained 22lbs and lost 2lbs and from then on, I have done nothing but put on weight and increase strength. I also took 3 months off last year and didn't lose any muscle mass. My muscles were flat and my strength decreased slightly but great ol' muscle memory took care of that situation.
 
=)

I wish i would of read your post a while ago when i was doing my 1st cycle(im was just gona do 1)...lol :) ....i dont think anyone would want to go back to normall.... The Muscle Tech Bar is a good alternative for preserving muscle on those off periods though:D About loosin gthe muscle i disagree...if u bump up your caloric intake youll keep every damn inch and lb after your initial crash phase. :D
 
macDbol said:
it makes sense decem
Click to expand...

It does. As for the last cycle remark, depending on my results from my next cycle it could be my last. I feel that after the next cycle i will be more than happy with my performance, appearance, and weight. Just my 2 cc's.
 
i often wanted to ask about that, because, most of the 'advice' and cycle suggestions, are coming from guys who are constantly doing cycles, theres little or no information about how keepable gains are, after one cycle, or two, or three.
the other problem is, you have guys who do a cycle, and they stop working out for months, and they claim to have lost all their gains. all this can confuse some. For instance, how keepable are anavar gains, when most people use it for bridging, or if they use it alone in a cycle, they often do another cycle soon after.
 
it makes sense. like decem said, if you're natural potential was to be 210 without juice, your body will probably revert back to that state, unless you increase calories/protein, etc even then your body has natural genetic limitations.
 
One of the biggest reasons I believe people loose most of their gains is that their nutrition is off. People should learn about nutrition and not use juice as a substitute for it because once the juice wears off and their still eating shit then you will suffer the consenquences. It all comes down to how much effort and time you want to put into this. To me its a lifestyle not a hobby. Also not many people incorporate a good post cycle program to make coming off alot easier. On a side note I also said that I would do one cycle. I'm now on my 3rd and planning my 4th. It's funny how you always say that you'll stop after a certain weight and once you reach that goal you just keep upping it.
---PEACE---Mad Max
 
but,,i ask you this,,,the old school bodybuilders who are in their 50s now are still kinda big(not symetrical anymore but still big for normal ppl),,like sergio,zane,,blah blah , they still cant be juicing
 
I partially agree with you. I belive through the use of steroids you can maintain a bigger size then if you never would of used them. Also it gives you the ability to hit your peak in your early 20's instesad of weighting till' your 40 or so to have deicent size. I believe my goal of 235lbs. at 5'10'' will be maintainable with out steroids. Of coarse anybody that thinks they can be the size of Ronnie Coleman and maintain that without steroids are kiddin' thereselves.
 
jstrong20 said:
Of coarse anybody that thinks they can be the size of Ronnie Coleman and maintain that without steroids are kiddin' thereselves.
Click to expand...

Damn, back to the drawing board...lol.
 
mcdbol - yes they can bro.. shit.. they're probably on supplemental test by now..

mad max - think about it though.. no matter how good your nutrition is.. if your body cannot produce the amount of hormone it takes to maintain the size you reached while taking exogenous hormones (which you wouldn't have needed to take if your body made that much in the first place).. there's no way you can hold on to that muscle.. there just isn't

for the past six months or so i kept telling myself - i'm going to stop once i reach 220 or 225 or so, and i'll just maintain after that - but after going on 10 weeks or so since my last cycle.. and having kept 90% of my gains for the first 7 weeks of being off.. then having had my body start reverting back to it's old self over the past three weeks - eventhough i'm eating and training properly - i've come to the conclusion that i will never maintain anything past my body's normal limitations.. i just won't.. and neither will any of you...

now, after this cycle :D , i just have to get myself to feel 'ok' while not on steroids.. and come to accept my body for what it is.. and not this illusion that i've made myself believe it was for the past 2 years..

does that make sense? is this turning into a bad group therapy session waiting to happen?
 
decem, I partially agree with you but have a few problems with some of your statements.
1. According to your theory, if someone is not at their limit, they will retain most of the mass gained via AAS use. The converse is also true, i.e. if they are have exceeded their limit they will return to a lower body mass. BUT - No one really knows what their "natural limit" is, so the theory has no validity. Also, what if someone's "set point" shifts over time? You will NOT return to pre-AAS baseline values following an extended time off from AAS.

2. Sustaining AAS mass is not solely dependent on testosterone levels. Many other hormones and non-hormonal agents contribute to muscular development and/or maintenance. Therefore, the argument that you don't have enough endogenous T to maintain the mass is not true.
 
I'm not worried b/c i ain't near my limit yet since i was off and on for many years and jst got back on it 2 months ago working out and i noiced how weak i gotten. i plan to cycle Var and maybe dbol or winny along with it. I know i'll keep most of my gains b/c i haven't reachd my lifting limit i got a long way to go but this will boost me and save me 6-8 months of lifting naturally trying to get back where i left off. plus i keep gaining weight myself so if i can lose some BF and diet properly when cycling and keep diet afterwards i'll be fine keeping it all :-)~
 
Dr.X said:
decem, I partially agree with you but have a few problems with some of your statements.

1. According to your theory, if someone is not at their limit, they will retain most of the mass gained via AAS use. The converse is also true, i.e. if they are have exceeded their limit they will return to a lower body mass. BUT - No one really knows what their "natural limit" is, so the theory has no validity. Also, what if someone's "set point" shifts over time? You will NOT return to pre-AAS baseline values following an extended time off from AAS.

2. Sustaining AAS mass is not solely dependent on testosterone levels. Many other hormones and non-hormonal agents contribute to muscular development and/or maintenance. Therefore, the argument that you don't have enough endogenous T to maintain the mass is not true.
Click to expand...

good points doc

in response:

1. when someone trains for a year.. gets to 180.. then uses aas for a year.. gets to 220.. then stops aas for a year.. and sticks at 190.. then uses aas for six months.. and gets to 220.. then stops for six months.. and sticks at 190.. i'd say their set limit is 190.. that probably makes no sense at all..

ok.. rephrasing.. i am sure that most people have a pretty darned good, accurate idea of what their set point is.. and has anyone proven that a natural limit could in fact shift over time? no sarcasm.. just asking.. wouldn't a natural muscle set point be the same as a body fat set point (which i think has been proven)?


2. but exogenous hormones aren't necessarily just testosterone.. they too manipulate all your endocrine systems.. as well as pretty much every other system in your body.. that's why i said hormones and not test.. and i should have also said that your body simply cannot maintain the same environment conducive to muscle growth/sustainment when not taking exogenous hormones..
 
I have read in the past that the body likes to stay at a certain weight. What about guys that are on year round? It seems that if this was true the body would start to get comfortable at the "juicing" weight and your body would start to consider this your regular weight.
 
I guess i have no limit b/c up to highschool even after my limit was always 140 at 5'9 then up to 160 for a few eyar and 170 for last 3 eyars until maybe last years been mostly 180 and now 195 and thats without really lifting but i'm thin except stomach area i need to check my BF but i don't look 196 i look at 170-180 so if i got on juice imagine that
 
decem, I'm not sure if we can really answer the question regarding "natural limits". I'll agree that a plateau effect is eventually realized by everyone where gains do slow, but by using AAS I do think you can manipulate your body (to a degree) to hold more mass than it would otherwise naturally. If this is true, you have exceeded your natural limit. I'm not saying you can maintain peak mass while on, but rather that following a cycle, you should always be able to maintain a percentage of the gains.
Also, (to me at least) it makes sense that your mass set-point can shift somewhat over time. As you become heavier, it would seem that your bone structure, metabolism, etc. could adjust to accomodate that mass.
Perhaps people can't eat enough, etc. to maintain the mass over time? I don't have an answer.
 
Counterstrike said:
I'm not worried b/c i ain't near my limit yet since i was off and on for many years and jst got back on it 2 months ago working out and i noiced how weak i gotten. i plan to cycle Var and maybe dbol or winny along with it. I know i'll keep most of my gains b/c i haven't reachd my lifting limit i got a long way to go but this will boost me and save me 6-8 months of lifting naturally trying to get back where i left off. plus i keep gaining weight myself so if i can lose some BF and diet properly when cycling and keep diet afterwards i'll be fine keeping it all :-)~
Click to expand...

that's what i did.. before i broke my hand last june, and a year after my last cycle.. i had maintained 190-195 and 6-10% bf for the year.. but after i was injured.. i was out of any type of physical activity for 4.5 months.. at which point i dropped to 185 or so and around 12-14% bf when it was all said and done..

as soon as the hand was good to go.. i started a dbol, sust, deca, winny cycle.. jumped to 218 or so when it was all said and done.. then came off.. did some dieting.. dropped some bf and dropped some muscle.. but maintained 205 and all the strength i'd gained for a good 7 weeks.. now the past three weeks.. i haven't changed squat and i'm down to 195 again..

i forgot where i was going with this..

oh yeah... yes.. doing a cycle is a good way to get back on track after a long layoff.. and you'll get back to your peak much faster than you would naturally.. and you'll maintain you peak at that point.. but your body won't allow you to maintain the EXTRA mass and strength you gain..
 
Here's how I see it. I think it's possible to hold on to muscle mass build with the use of AS. But you need to give your body a chance to adapt!

The body is never going to accept and hold on to the 20lbs of muscle you put on in 10 weeks. It's too much.

Stick to low doses and mostly anabolic substances. Even if you gain 6-8 lbs on a cycle, that's still weight that you couldn't have put on naturally(assuming you've come close to your natural peak). Your body can adapt to that type of change.

This idea of certain compounds like primo and anavar giving more permanent gains is unfounded. You don't gain much weight on these substances and there costs prevents abuse.

Unfortunately, most people don't give a shit about bodybuilding and want to gain 20-30lbs on a cycle.
 
Eric Fustino said:
I would agree with you decem till I saw living proff

I knew this guy who juiced since he was 14 till about 18. anyway at his peak he was about 185 very ripped and solid. he has a small frame so with that weight on him he was really big for his frame and age. anyway he stopped jucing and I thought he would loose everything concedring that he never really built natural muscle. any way when he stopped he lost a lot of size but was still very hard and respectable. now he has been clean for 3 years and competes naturaly at 156 in the off season he is about 175-185 and very lean. he still looks smaller then when he was juicing but looks better now and is just as strong.I would say he has good genetics but nothing special, so thats proff to me that you can maintain your size somewhat other wise he would of went back to his 14 year old 130 pound body.
Click to expand...

His body is capable of handling 185lbs. Since he started juicing at 14, he never fully grew.
 
eric.. i honestly think the guy you're talking about would have been 175-180 naturally had he trained right and eaten right up until he was 22 or 25 or so.

to say that this guy kept mass built with aas just because he was 130lbs as a kid and stays 170.. just doesn't hold water. i know so many people that were skinny little twerps in school and now that they've been training, have built respectable bodies.. without aas..

anyway.. i just don't recognize the case of which you speak as any proof against what i've theorized.
 
yup.. that's the way i see it anyhow..


i would love for someone to tell me how if there's a way.. cuz i'd love to keep it.. naturally and safely.. but unfortunately.. i just don't think that's the case..
 
Eric Fustino said:
decem I see were your going with this. maybe I misunderstood you what I though you ment is that you can not hold on to gains made with steroids. now if your 200 pounds natuerly and cannot break that without juice then what ever you gain with the juice will not be perment right? say then you juice get to 230 then stop for good you will go back to 200 pounds right?
Click to expand...

That's what we are debating. I say that it is possible to hold on to most of your gains if your body is allowed to adapt. The body is trying to maintain joint integrity and people are adding 15-20lbs of muscle in a couple of months. This doesn't make any sense to me.

Instead of adding 30 lbs in 2 cycles, he would have a better chance of holding on to most of that weight if he gained it in 4-5 cycles.

I know a guy who is 5'6 and went from 135 to 195 naturally over 3 years. He started juicing in his early 20's and peaked at 230 lbs (480lb bench press). It's been 4 years since he's juiced and he still maintains 220-222lbs( 435lb bench press). He did many short cycles with low doses.
 
HMMMMM, it does make sense to take lighter dosages, but i figured i would bust my balls just as hard and eat just as much when im off. First cycle was dbol/test/fina 2nd one right now is test and fina, so when you suggest a lighter cycle? I mean how light? primo/anavar? Thats damn light. Or test and primo? Some examples plz
 
decem said:
yup.. that's the way i see it anyhow..


i would love for someone to tell me how if there's a way.. cuz i'd love to keep it.. naturally and safely.. but unfortunately.. i just don't think that's the case..
Click to expand...
There is a way--unfortunately you will have to slowly build up to it, i didn't start juicing until i was in my late 40's i'm 50 now having a slower metabolism has allowed me to keep 80-90 per cent of my mass gained (unless i get sick) so i pushed the enveloped naturally until i could go no farther ,so while you younger folks with a faster metabolism will make some gains it will probably be lost over time,as i was younger and gained, an injury always set me back to being flat and i felt i had to start over again. maybe this helps clear up some things......... RADAR
 
babyfaced monster said:
HMMMMM, it does make sense to take lighter dosages, but i figured i would bust my balls just as hard and eat just as much when im off. First cycle was dbol/test/fina 2nd one right now is test and fina, so when you suggest a lighter cycle? I mean how light? primo/anavar? Thats damn light. Or test and primo? Some examples plz
Click to expand...

i don't believe he meant primo/var etc.. as a lighter cycle. I believe what was meant were smaller dosages of any steroid you decided to use.
I agree on that point to where i'd rather gain 7 pounds of solid muscle and be able to maintain all of that rather then gaining 25 lbs of muscle that i'd lose within two months. Also i believe shorter cycles would work great also 8-10 weeks. This in turn would also save alot of money.
 
I dont know what more I can add to what has already been said,
but I will say that my natural weight set point is and never has returned to pre 1st cycle weight. Over the years I have seen an average of 5-8 lbs permanent gains from cycling. I have taken as long as a full 3 years off and watched my weight drop to within 10 lbs of precycling but then slowly creep back up to very close to the weight I was while on. Of course my lean bm was not as good
and I didnt have the really hard look but I was eventually lifting the same weight I did while on. My body weight set point had been elevated do to aas use. I believe this. You cannot just evaluate this question in terms of weeks or even months. It takes a lot more natural training time to know what you have accomplished.
 
Cure said:


i don't believe he meant primo/var etc.. as a lighter cycle. I believe what was meant were smaller dosages of any steroid you decided to use.
I agree on that point to where i'd rather gain 7 pounds of solid muscle and be able to maintain all of that rather then gaining 25 lbs of muscle that i'd lose within two months. Also i believe shorter cycles would work great also 8-10 weeks. This in turn would also save alot of money.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

It's a matter of attitude, it's not about specific cycles. I don't think you should shot for or expect to gain 15-20 lbs on a cycle.

Unfortunately, many people don't have the patience to back off the doses or they are just terrible BBers because they never thrived as naturals.

A danger of steroid use that is often overlooked is the comprise of joint integrity. On roids your training has to be BALANCED. A natural will not be able to grow a bodypart completely out of proportion like a juicer can. This can lead to joint discomfort injuries and loss of lbm.
 
It is indeed possible to exceed and maintain one's genetic limitations.Long term use of anabolics has been shown numerous studies to increase satellite cell proliferation into the skeletal mainframe,which is a PERMANENT adaptation,that one would likely have never achieved prior to A/S introduction.Increases in myonuclei populations within striated muscle fiber are also another effect that have been linked to long term A/S usage.Note that I am talking about extended use here,not one or two light cycles.
 
What do you guys think would be the least amount of juice required to maintain the size you got from steroids?Lets say over the course of 3 or 4 years you packed on about 50 pounds from juicing.Assuming you are happy with your size,you just want to maintain it,how much would you have to do?Would a couple 8 week cycles of sustanon@ 250mg a week be enough?I am just talking about maintaining,not growing.
 
ok.. so i was wrong.. sort of.

huck says that permanent muscle gain is indeed possible through use of anabolic steroids, but said use must be of a prolonged duration.. most likely well over two or three or even four years..

but at that point.. after that length of time of using anabolic steroids.. there must also permanent side effects that have taken affect.. permanent build up in arteries.. permanent damage to heart valves from the elevated blood pressure.. permanent mental effects..

ok, so i don't know that those are definitely side effects that occur with extended aas use.. but there will without a doubt be some type of permanent side effects..

i was wrong in saying that muscle built with steroids can never be permanent.. so i have decided to change my statement to the following:

muscle built with steroids can not be permanent unless one takes them for such an extended period of time that side effects from such use will be permanent as well... recreational users who take steroids in hopes of getting a quick boost to their training and physique, which they would be capable of maintaining post cycle, without suffering any long-term ill effects, must realize that they are spending their time and money in vain.. as such gains can not be keepable without doing some harm in the long run. or worse yet, the users may take steroids for extended periods of time but in such a manner where the user does not even make marked increases in muscle mass and still reaps considerable unwanted side effects.

so, in conclusion, users, or possible users, must contemplate where they want to go with their anabolic steriod use in the long run.. that is..

if they will willingly put their body in harms way, spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on an illegal substance that may land them in jail, take steroids for years and years, just to gain some permanent muscle..

or for those that just use periodic light cycles that land them some gains but allow themselves to return to their natural physique before beginning another cycle.. if they wish to waste precious money on steroids that will give temporary rewards while possibly yielding permanent side effects..

or ..if they are strong enough to overcome the urges brought on my low self-esteem and confidence and yearning to have the perfect physique, willingly choose not to look to steriods as an answer to build their physique as well as not to look to their physique for their source of confidence and self-esteem, come to accept their body as it is and accept what gains they might make in training naturally as rewarding.. and train in a healthy manner so as to increase longevity and happiness throughout life.. not just a few brief years.
 
Very true Decem.It's a double-edge sword.The same blade that kills for you,will also slice you open,lol.The best way to achieve permenancy in striated muscle cell proliferation without ruining your other organs indefinitely is to be under the constant monitoring of a medical professional who understands anabolics inside and out,and how to counteract their negative impact on various organs/systems within the body.Such an individual will be extremely open minded,and work WITH you,not against you.The best starting place to find such an individual is in the endocrinology department...
 
we need a chime in from

gwl9dta4.

he does about 1 cycle a year of SUS+DECA, but mostly SUS

and is weel above his natural platue and through out the year loses some gains post cycle but is always up a good 7=9 pounds a year.

I am not sure on precise #'s but it would be interesting for him to chime in on this one.


Hello where are you?:confused:

:)
 
not just upping cals...

but maintaing that new muscle with more cals, more training, etc....i dont know i u can keep em all, but i have put on 35-40 and have only lost 10 and im dieting now, i started in jan 01 and im dieting right now, i have been off and on so its real hard to say, but id like to belive ill keep 90% but thats me, i will hope
but i like your posts, good thinking in them
 
do you think that you had reached your absolute plateau before aas use? or do you think that they just helped you get to it?

just curious..


and thank you btw.
 
I thin Radar hit it on the head....fuck when I was in my late teens through my early and mid 20's I couldn't gain a pound....that all changed in my 30's....I gained lots of muscle mass....my metabolism slowed and I gained lots of size without that much bf
 
sides

Just a tangential caveat.

side effects are in the eye of the beholder. If I juiced to increase my cholesterol and body acne then I would call the accompanying muscle mass gains "side effects."
 
Well I rather do 2 cycle that yield 15lbs each with a 4 month break then one big one that yield 30lbs. It saves your liver, help your reptor get clean and gives time for the body to adapt. There are too many people here that want to be 225lb overnight. You have to understand doing AAS will mean you have to work harder and smarter to keep the gains.
 
Formula said:
Well I rather do 2 cycle that yield 15lbs each with a 4 month break then one big one that yield 30lbs. It saves your liver, help your reptor get clean and gives time for the body to adapt. There are too many people here that want to be 225lb overnight. You have to understand doing AAS will mean you have to work harder and smarter to keep the gains.
Click to expand...


if i'm not mistaken.. and i'm pretty damn sure i'm not..

you cannot clean or clear your receptors.. they don't get dirty or start misfiring.. they're either on or off..

so.. unfortunately.. due to one little piece of misinformation.. your argument has been pretty much shot out of the water
 
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