Is training to failure optimal for growth?

[InTraining]

First off, let's take strength out of the equation..... From a 100% growth perspective, does one need to take the set to failure in order to get the maximum growth stimulus?

Yes....I have read the studies and articles on the HST board and they claim that progressive resistance is what causes growth and failure is a neural(sp) issue..

I have always heard that the "last reps of a set stimulate the most muscle fibers" is this true to some extent or just total BS?

Lastly, take a 5x5 for example. Starting at a low weight that and progressively increasing over time until failure is reached and working beyond previously used weights...this has to be a case for failure helping to cause growth?

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

Well technically you don't have to reach failure on 5x5. If you know yourself you'll be able to stop on the last rep you can complete. As the weight goes up and the sets get harder, you don't necessarily have to go to failure, you just don't get as many reps.. I don't go to failure and 5x5 works fine for me.

Imo, training to failure is not necessary at all. If you do it fine, but it doesn't have to be done.

HST seems to be sort of a fad to me. It just looks like an old Arthur Jones 3x a week fullbody routine with some periodization and other stuff thrown in for icing. That's just what it seems like to me.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

a touch of soreness lets me know that im close to the maximum strength of a muscle. lots of soreness just hampers my ablilty to recover. more recovery time = less workout time.

just speaking of growth, however, throws a monkey wrench into my thoughts. i have never tried HST, nor do i have the experience to comment on growth only. i only wonder how you could seperate failure and progressive resistance. isnt failure gotten through progresive resistance? you still have to lift to get to failure. using too much weight results in no lifting. therefore, if growth only comes through progresive resistance, then both failure and non failure would reap results (as long as your actually lifting).

I think what HST is really about is the rep schemes. i have heard over and over that doing sets with lower reps builds strength, and higher reps build size. the deconditioning periods of HST make sure that the body never gets used to the workout, and the "gains" never stop while you are on cycle. using failure in an HST scheme would create larger recovery needs, and probably make HST lackluster for results. especially if you add in the deconditioning month.

 

[anthrax]

I've just read an article (don't remember the source but it was some scientific journal like American Journal of Sports Medicine) and they were saying that a 1 set of failure and only one was effective

Though it is very taxing one the CNS

 

[Tom Treutlein]

No need to go to failure for growth.

 

[psilo]

I've been blowing up on HST, and I only hit failure once every two weeks or so. So I would say, experientially, failure is not really necessary for growth.

 

[SlavikHavik]

no not necessary,
dosent really do much but increase recovery time.

 

[casualbb]

I feel that if people knew what failure was they would recognize its uselessness

Failure is a combination of two major things:
1) Your muscle runs out of ATP. No fuel left to burn.
2) Muscles are signalled to contract by the release of calcium ions. When you hit failure its because the calcium ion gradient can't recharge quickly enough.

So failure represents the extreme of fatigue. It's not anything special in and of itself, just the combination of a few processes that happen any time you lift weights at all. It still has nothing to do with causing growth, which is a result of mechanical damage to muscle cells and has little to do with energy stores and nothing to do with the inability to contract muscles due to discharged ion gradients.

In fact if you do one set of 20-rep "breathing" squats to failure, which are very very tiresome, you will achieve the same growth response as if you had done 20 reps of squats over the course of an hour.

I mean all reps and sets are is a way to group reps to manage fatigue. Only the weight on the bar and the total number of reps performed really matter at all (there is an exception but it is minor)

 

[coolcolj]

Having been training to failure since the start of year, I will say that it certainly helps. Its a different training effect from not training to failure

perhaps alternating ebwteen teh 2 styles is a good way to go

If you want to maximise hypertrophy, you better be doing power and speed style work.
Here is how it works - power work increases force absorbtion, which in turn increases size potential, which then increases strnegth, whch then increases power. and around we go again

That is what you do if you want to avoid the plateaus that people who train for size get into. Here is another tip for fast growth that I noticed works extremely well for bench so far - do 3 explosive benches fast up and down, and then straight into an isometric hold at the sticking point till failure - use about 50-70% of 1RM to allow you a 20-30sec ISO hold. 3sets is enough
Add weight as necessay as you get stronger and you will - I add 10lbs a session
my upper body has blown up a bit doing that in 3 sessions and I don't even train for size!
There is scientific reason why this works too

 

[TheOak84]

personally i think the key to growth is frequency and intensity.

cbb - i did 20 rep breathing squats, (after not doin legs at all in 2 months, besides sprints and jogging) on thrusday, and today i can still feel it. so, if i do one set of 20 rep squats, or 4 sets of 5, with a weight where i fail at about 5-6, ill get the same growth?

 

[jwwpua]

I mean all reps and sets are is a way to group reps to manage fatigue. Only the weight on the bar and the total number of reps performed really matter at all (there is an exception but it is minor)

Would it be more accurate to say the "time under load" instead of "total number of reps performed"? For instance, doing 10 reps in 20 seconds wouldn't be as effective as 10 reps in 60 seconds (slowing down the negative portion).

 

[casualbb]

jwwpua - yeah that's pretty much what I mean. don't fall into the trap of slowing your negatives too much, it's actually counterproductive. 2-3 seconds is plenty

so, if i do one set of 20 rep squats, or 4 sets of 5, with a weight where i fail at about 5-6, ill get the same growth?

yep

 

[psychedout]

Blasphemy!!!! Actually maybe that was a bit harsh. Curious why you say this though?

 

[guldukat]

In fact if you do one set of 20-rep "breathing" squats to failure, which are very very tiresome, you will achieve the same growth response as if you had done 20 reps of squats over the course of an hour.

Casual,

Sorry to nitpick so, but a 3 minute workload spread over the course of an hour elicits the same growth response? Wow.

I gotta say that at least sounds extreme. Just over how much time could one do these singularly easy 20 reps before the stimulation drops off?

On a somewhat related note, what do you make of the I.A.R.T's "ATP deficit theory" vis-a-vis growth? (I'm sure it's wrong to color it a IART exclusive, but eh...*shrugs* They're the first lot I heard talking about it. .)

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

I can tell you using COMMON SENSE that doing 1 set of 20 rep squats is not the same stimulus as doing 20 sub-maximal singles in an hour. NOT even close.

For one thing, you don't take into account the HUGE difference the 2 methods place on the CNS.

Secondly I have done all out 20 rep squats and it just obliterates me. Doing 20 sub-maximal singles HAHA(which is how I train my squats using roughly 14 ascendingly heavier singles to my working sets of 6 singles for 20 total reps in the workout in under an hour) leaves me feeling STRONG and almost kinda refreshed feeling. Maybe this is just me.

Growth wise since I have done 20 reppers and currently do singles that as long as you do enough singles the growth stimulus is similar imo, BUT the effect the 2 methods have on strength and power development as well as the demands they make on the CNS are 2 entirely different things.

 

[casualbb]

I can make that claim because growth is almost exclusively mechanical.

In other words, when muscle fibers support weight they damage and repair to a larger size, given nutrients and energy. So the only major factor in causing growth in the drug-free trainee is the weight being moved. How that weight gets moved (20 rep set, or one of 20 singles) doesn't really matter.

For strength purposes, yes. Training near failure with lots of reps will make your body adapt to be stronger in the higher-rep range and be better at near-failure training. But PURELY growth-wise it doesn't matter.

 

[cwick0]

failure will help, but you dont have to go to failure on every set, save it for your last set.
or do dropsets for failure

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Please explain how failure will help? You can grow by going to failure, but it's not optimal. Recovery is hindered. I agree that the last set to failure might not be so bad, but I can't see it as helping.

To me, failure is just a sure-fire way of knowing you stimulated the fibers to cause the most growth possible without hurting yourself. It seems more for an amateur trainee who doesn't know his/her body well enough to know when their breaking point is. I'd find it more impressive, and much more effective, to know when you're going to fail, stop two reps or so before that point, and learn to fight another day.

 

[cwick0]

Please explain how failure will help? You can grow by going to failure, but it's not optimal. Recovery is hindered. I agree that the last set to failure might not be so bad, but I can't see it as helping.

To me, failure is just a sure-fire way of knowing you stimulated the fibers to cause the most growth possible without hurting yourself. It seems more for an amateur trainee who doesn't know his/her body well enough to know when their breaking point is. I'd find it more impressive, and much more effective, to know when you're going to fail, stop two reps or so before that point, and learn to fight another day.

The last couple of reps are your money reps. This is were I think you gain the most. Your muscles are already fatigued and you push them that much harder to get those last few reps, hence allowing you to keep moving the weights up week after week. Why would i want to sell myself short on these last few reps when i know i can get at least one more?

For the recovery point, it is a mute point for me because i recover extremely quickly. For example, i just finished a chest workout. By dinner tonight i should be perfectly fine and have very little if any soreness. And when i do get sore i get pissed, because my body hasnt recovered fast enough.

 

[casualbb]

cwick...
how do I put this gently

soreness has little to do with recovery
fatigue has little to do with growth

lifting is confusing, because the only feedback our body gives us is how it feels, either "I'm tired" or "i'm sore," both of which matter for strength or physical readiness, but have nothing to do with growth

once again, nature really doesn't care about hypertrophy, it just wants us to survive and bang women, so the body feedback is all about the muscle's strength state

 

[InTraining]

Casual-How many reps shy of failure do you recommend that I take a set if I don't want to cut into recovery too much? I train for growth, don't really care about strength, and not interested in HST at the moment(though I researched it).

Also I like low volume high frequency so I am hitting muscle groups 2x weekly

Thanks for your help.

 

[casualbb]

Stop when your rep speed slows down a lot. For instance, if you know you could get that last rep but it would be tough -- don't, save it for the next set

 

[Allon]

This thread is great. My mind is spinning.
For growth I think that the best is to constantly change your routine. High reps, low reps, mid range reps (Ghetto one reps ). If they keep changing as well as the exersices the body is "surprised" and growth is caused. I think this is the only complete truth on the subject, more than any other recipe.

 

[JohnRobHolmes]

SUPRISE!!!

 

[ghettostudmuffin]

Most of my training experience has been training multiple exercises with multipile sets to failure. Way to much stress for me. I have also done alot of single set to failure with everything you got until you can't even hold the weight and then do the slow negative until you just can't hold the bar up any longer. This super-taxes me.

I've done so much training to failure I know exactly whether or not I will be able to complete the next rep. I have done hundreds, probably thousands of sets to failure so I know.

I stop on the last rep I know I can complete and it is still a money rep cuz it's still hard. Stalling out and hitting failure on the last rep and straining my ass off does nothing, but wear me out.

We are all different. Are recovery ability, mainly are CNS and how it responds to training and types of training is different for every person.

 

[anthrax]

Let's say you're doing 5 sets

the 4 first you work for growth
6-10 reps @ 100 lbs

the last one you go to failure

This last set enable you to gain in strength

The following week, w/ the same routine you can hopefully lift more
6-10 reps @ 110 lbs

the last one you go to failure

Even though the last set didn't help you grow directly, it enables you to lift more weight that will ultimately induce hypertrophy

 

[Allon]

Let's say you're doing 5 sets

the 4 first you work for growth
6-10 reps @ 100 lbs

the last one you go to failure

This last set enable you to gain in strength

The following week, w/ the same routine you can hopefully lift more
6-10 reps @ 110 lbs

the last one you go to failure

Even though the last set didn't help you grow directly, it enables you to lift more weight that will ultimately induce hypertrophy

Sounds good.

So what amount of reps would you recomend for last set?

 

[InTraining]

Stop when your rep speed slows down a lot. For instance, if you know you could get that last rep but it would be tough -- don't, save it for the next set

I took this advice tonight and it went much better...though I still went to failure on some sets the majority of sets I stayed a couple reps shy of it...

Think I will continue to bypass failure so I don't plateau.

Gave you some karma