Is it possible to restore the HTPA with Nolvadex?

[nydj66]

so hcg is no good post cycle? this shit is too confusing

This shit is confusing because it's not completely understood and there is not even concensus among the experts.

But, according to Swale, HCG is no good post cycle because it is just as suppressive to HPTA as the androgens you were taking during your cycle.

Basically HCG can mimic LH in that it stimulates the production of testosterone in the testes. However, HCG reduces LH production through the negative feedback loop and it is this LH production you are trying to recover through PCT.

So, assuming your testes are up to full size and ready to produce testosterone, what you need is a SERM like Nolvadex or Clomid to interupt the negative feedback loop which will increase LH production which will in turn will stimulate testosterone production.

So says Swale.

Actually, now that I see it, Jenetic explains it all very nicely in the post above mine.

 

[Dial_tone]

So, assuming your testes are up to full size and ready to produce testosterone, what .........................

So says Swale.

The problem here is that is often an incorrect assumption.

 

[Jenetic]

This shit is confusing because it's not completely understood and there is not even concensus among the experts.

But, according to Swale, HCG is no good post cycle because it is just as suppressive to HPTA as the androgens you were taking during your cycle.

Basically HCG can mimic LH in that it stimulates the production of testosterone in the testes. However, HCG reduces LH production through the negative feedback loop and it is this LH production you are trying to recover through PCT.

So, assuming your testes are up to full size and ready to produce testosterone, what you need is an AI blocker like Nolvadex or Clomid to interupt the negative feedback loop which will increase LH production which will in turn will stimulate testosterone production.

So says Swale.

Exactly. HCG is a problem when used by itself. This is why Nolvadex and/or Clomid is incoporated in combination during PCT. Also, an aromatase inhibitor or anti prolactin isn't necessary post cycle as long as you have used them during your cycle to control the elevated estrogen and/or prolactin which may complicate and delay recovery.

Jenetic

 

[nydj66]

so does hcg prolong recovery or not?

True recovery will not begin until HCG use has been discontinued. However, if the testes have atrophied, that will be the bottleneck that prevents recovery and so HCG use is warranted.

If you use HCG during your cycle, there is no need to use it during PCT. Or, you can run HCG the last 2 or 3 weeks of your cycle to restore testicular form and function. OR, you can use HCG for the first 2 or 3 weeks post cycle to boost testosterone and restore testicular form and function.

But once the testes are at full size, HCG provides no benefit and will prolong recovery. The point is, only a SERM should be used once the testes are full volume.

 

[BIG SMT]

How did you come to this conclusion?

You say that HCG is suppresive, therfore how does HCG increase sensitivity to LH?

What's your definition of over used?

You're statements are contradictive.

Jenetic

Quote nvdj66:

Basically HCG can mimic LH in that it stimulates the production of testosterone in the testes. However, HCG reduces LH production through the negative feedback loop and it is this LH production you are trying to recover through PCT.

So, assuming your testes are up to full size and ready to produce testosterone, what you need is a SERM like Nolvadex or Clomid to interupt the negative feedback loop which will increase LH production which will in turn will stimulate testosterone production.


The HCG mimics LH, but does not help restore the body's natural LH production because it thinks it is already making it.

1. You say that HCG is suppresive: Suppressive to the HPTA in that it mimics LH, therefore the body doesn't have to produce its own. Just like test, why would the body produce it if it is already there. The body wants to stay in homostasis.

2. therefore how does HCG increase sensitivity to LH? The testes have not had any stimulation from LH in a great deal on time. So, HCG will help saturate the system and get the testes working overtime due to such a surge in a LH-like hormone. Then when the SERM begins to restore the HPTA the testes will be less likely to reject the change in the system because they were used it again.

3. What's your definition of over used? When you inject so much HCG that the testes will try to keep up with what the signals are telling them,thereby overstimulating them and causing damage (desensitization to LH)

Example: 5000iu mon/wed/fri for 8-10 wks. It is just not a good idea.

Your doses of HCG are sensible, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it. I personally go for 2000-2500 every 5 days for a total of 4-5 injections before starting the SERMs, but only on longer cycles.

 

[Maxell1]

I think it can, although Nelson Montana said it was like wearing a pair of sunglasses in a snow storm...still, nolvadex is so similar to clomid structurally, I don't see why it wouldn't elicit the same effect, but I've only juiced once, and I used clomid.

 

[Jenetic]

Quote nvdj66:

Basically HCG can mimic LH in that it stimulates the production of testosterone in the testes. However, HCG reduces LH production through the negative feedback loop and it is this LH production you are trying to recover through PCT.

So, assuming your testes are up to full size and ready to produce testosterone, what you need is a SERM like Nolvadex or Clomid to interupt the negative feedback loop which will increase LH production which will in turn will stimulate testosterone production.


The HCG mimics LH, but does not help restore the body's natural LH production because it thinks it is already making it.

1. You say that HCG is suppresive: Suppressive to the HPTA in that it mimics LH, therefore the body doesn't have to produce its own. Just like test, why would the body produce it if it is already there. The body wants to stay in homostasis.

2. therefore how does HCG increase sensitivity to LH? The testes have not had any stimulation from LH in a great deal on time. So, HCG will help saturate the system and get the testes working overtime due to such a surge in a LH-like hormone. Then when the SERM begins to restore the HPTA the testes will be less likely to reject the change in the system because they were used it again.

3. What's your definition of over used? When you inject so much HCG that the testes will try to keep up with what the signals are telling them,thereby overstimulating them and causing damage (desensitization to LH)

Example: 5000iu mon/wed/fri for 8-10 wks. It is just not a good idea.

Your doses of HCG are sensible, and I wouldn't hesitate to use it. I personally go for 2000-2500 every 5 days for a total of 4-5 injections before starting the SERMs, but only on longer cycles.

I've already addressed the issues of SERMs and leydig cell desensitization in my previous 2 posts. Please review them. It's pretty clear.

Tell me something I don't know. You continue address negative feedback but haven't addressed the issues of the actual androgen:estrogen ratio and testicular atrophy encountered post cycle. Take some time to think about the specific goals both short term and long term in regards to recovery rather than stating the obvious for the sake of this discussion.

5,000 IU's 3x/wk is unecessary in general. That's not to say that it doesn't have it's place during recovery. I've used 5,000 IU's 3x/wk for a total of 8 weeks and then gradually decreased the dosage to 1,500 IU's 3x/wk for an additional . I haven't encountered any noticable permanent desensitization. My test levels are stable from 870-880 ng/dl.

Jenetic

 

[Texas Ranger]

The primary goal during the first three weeks of PCT is to quickly restore testicular volume. Also, the dramatic increase in testosterone production is necessary to avoid and/or minimize the "crash" effect. It's not meant to be used as a long term solution. As previously mentioned, both Nolvadex and Clomid increase pituitary LH secretion by blocking estrogen negative feedback on the HTPA. Therefore, SERMs are used during PCT as an anti estrogen and to continue the stimulation of pituitary LH after HCG has been discontinued.

1,000 IU's HCG 3x/wk (mon/wed/fri) in combination with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for a total of 3 weeks. Continue with 20 mgs Nolvadex ED for an additional
2-3 weeks. During heavy or prolonged cycles, you may increase the HCG dosage to 1,500 IU's if necessary and incorporate 50-100 mgs Clomid ED for the first 3 weeks in combination with both HCG and Nolvadex. Continue with 50 mgs Clomid ED for an additional 2-3 weeks in combination with Nolvadex. Finally, perform blood work to evaluate your recovery.

In addition, the leydig cell desensitization from HCG has been shown to be blocked/minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by supressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.

Jenetic

Jenetic, wonderful advice!!

 

[Dial_tone]

I believe in using clomid, nolvadex and hcg during pct.

 

[JKurz1]

I use both HCG and Nolvadex as I am on HRT.

Are you on HRT for life?