injecting long esters everyday...lets get some rebutle PLEASE

[bicepts101]

i got this from a smaller board...so i wanna see what i can get out of it over here....gimmie some feedback. i really hope this is wrong
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I am writing this but cannot take credit for it. This line of reasoning was pointed out to me by a bro who wishes to now remain anonymous.

GG and Superduty got me thinking tho so I'd thought I'd try to explain it.

The goal of injecting steriods is to increase blood levels of testosterone much higher than can be achieved normally. One of our criteria in doing this is to keep blood levels as stable as possible throughout cycle to provide the best environment for growth and to avoid as many sides as possible. I believe many side effects are caused by the spikes and dips created by once or twice a week injections, even using long esters. A way to reduce these sides would be to use a proper half life to determine when to inject or more importantly how much to frontload with.

Now most half lives are calculated on 1.5 x the number of carbon atoms to determine 1/2 life in days. Thats wrong! If you go to PubMed or AMJ you can look up numerous studies showing a much shorter half life(@ .7 per carbon atom)

That difference is because esters decay at a logarithmic rate, meaning the more esterified hormone in the injection depot, the more is released. This release rate slows as the amount of esterified hormone in the depot is reduced over time.
The general rule is about 0.7 X the number of carbons atoms in a linear ester . However when the body builder needs to keep in mind is that the majority of the esterified hormone is released, regardless of the ester, with the first 24hrs of injection because of the logarithmic rate of decay.


What does this mean in simple terms?
I'll useTestosterone Enthante in an 8 week cycle as an example:

Assume a 5 day half life for enthanate based on .7 x it's carbons.
Injecting 579mg on day one of your cycle will provide stable levels of 550 mg per week for the duration of your cycle provided you replentish 75 mg EVERY DAY.
INJECT
Day 1- 579- giving you 550 mg in 24 hours
Day 2 75 giving you 550 mg
Day 3 75 550
Day 4 75 550
Day 5 75 550
Day 6 75 550
Day 7 75 550
Day 8 75 550
Day 9 75 550
Day10 75 550
Day11 75 550
Day12 75 550

and so on until day 57 when you stop injections
decay clearance is as follows
DAY Total MG
58 479
59 417
60 363
61 316
62 275
63 240
64 209
65 182
66 158
67 138
68 120
69 104
70 91
71 79
72 69
73 60
74 52
75 45
76 40
77 34
78 30
79 26
80 23
81 20
82 17
83 15
84 13
85 11
all the way down to day 98 (end of week 14) before the enth is totally cleared.
__________________


Enthanate Clearance 500 mg

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at 1 shot of test enthanate of 500mg taken on day one.

It will take 8 weeks to clear(assuming a 5 day 1/2 life)

DAY Injected 500 mg(level)

1 500
2 475
3 414
4 360
5 313
6 273
7 238
8 207
9 180
10 157
11 136
12 119
13 103
14 90

and so- on until week 9 when it reaches 0.

Enthanate injected E3D at 250 mg-levels

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOw lets look at Injections of Test Enthanate every 4 days with 250 mg.
Blood levels are all over the place and create many dips and spikes.
Not a prime anabolic environment. It takes 7 days and 3 injections to even get to 500 mg(498) adn then continues to dip and spike the 500 mark until week 4 but then the spikes are over 600 mg. This daily flucuation cannot be good for combating sides or keeping steady growth rate.
The other way to look at it is $$$$. 500 ed levels would be more economical. You'd gain more.
I wonder if the 2 grams a week guys would do better on 1 gram injected every day vs 3x a week.


DAY INJECT TOTAL

1 250 238
2 0 207
3 0 180
4 250 394
5 0 343
6 0 299
7 250 498
8 0 433
9 0 377
10 250 566
11 0 493
12 0 429
13 250 611
14 0 532
15 0 463
16 250 640
17 0 558
18 0 485
19 250 660
20 0 575
21 0 500
22 250 673
23 0 586
24 0 510
25 250 681
26 0 593
27 0 518
28 250 687
29 0 598
30 0 521

and so on.

I used this web calc for these figures.

http://powerboard.rockarfett.com/roidcalc/

 

[LVTitan]

if you're gonna stick every day, why not just use suspension or prop ? that all looks good on paper, and given a formula that "who knows" came up with. but in the real world and in the body do we know for sure that that's how it works??
i'm not saying it's wrong, just saying i get decent gains with 2xweek injection of long esters...

 

[black sheep]

I made a similiar post about injecting sust daily.

You will get the most stable blood levels by injecting daily, but It is not worth the extra scar tissue and risk of infection.

If I were to inject daily it would be a Suspension/Tren cycle, not a enath or cyp cycle.

 

[glennds]

i am planning my next cycle and considering running test cyp, eq, and tren hex, ALL longer acting esters so i won't have to do daily injections. i am not afraid of injecting myself at this point but still don't particularly like it. why do more injections than you have to?

 

[Paulo]

If I wasn't totally shitfaced off of vodka and redbulls right now, I might have be able to read your post and make an intelligent comment, but I remember now that I once totally forgot to inject for like two weeks once and I didn't notice much difference.

OH wait that was two weeks ago, test enth. Damn, why am I posting right now?

 

[bicepts101]

I made a similiar post about injecting sust daily.

You will get the most stable blood levels by injecting daily, but It is not worth the extra scar tissue and risk of infection.

If I were to inject daily it would be a Suspension/Tren cycle, not a enath or cyp cycle.

ok i understand that bro....but the whole point to this is that if you are injecting any less than EOD with long acting esters, your blood levels are very inconsistant....thats what that info says and is what concerns me, being side effect prone

 

[bicepts101]

i'm not saying it's wrong, just saying i get decent gains with 2xweek injection of long esters...

and so does every other steroid user...what this suggests is that users will experiance a lot less side effects and more gains

 

[LVTitan]

hmm.. bicepts i have the same problems with you as far as test sides, so actually if someone out there can confirm that this theory will keep the sides down, it might be poss for me to use test again to bulk.. as it is now, i am on only 125mg/week test as a maint going into my 12week primo cycle.

 

[bicepts101]

If I wasn't totally shitfaced off of vodka and redbulls right now, I might have be able to read your post and make an intelligent comment, but I remember now that I once totally forgot to inject for like two weeks once and I didn't notice much difference.

OH wait that was two weeks ago, test enth. Damn, why am I posting right now?

LMAO...i bought a shit load of wine today....i plane on drinking this week...ummm cant wait!!

 

[hard life]

To me it seems that you will get more sides from injecting long lasting frequently. Say you inject 250mg of sus twice a week. the first time it is 250mg and the second time is 250mg plus the test that is left over from first injection...the androgens keep building up with every subsequent injection. Even at once a week this still happens.

 

[bicepts101]

hmm.. bicepts i have the same problems with you as far as test sides, so actually if someone out there can confirm that this theory will keep the sides down, it might be poss for me to use test again to bulk.. as it is now, i am on only 125mg/week test as a maint going into my 12week primo cycle.

yeah i get gyno...i tried to cycle with out test...its just not the same....i cant really go any higher and that 500 and thats stretching it

 

[Outtlaw]

I dont have any problems or sides from injecting in ways that produce unstable blood levels. People try to argue, especially with sust, that stable blood levels will produce better gains. But IMO that's b.s. As long as I get the total amount of mg's I want to inject per week, I dont care what my blood levels look like.

 

[bicepts101]

To me it seems that you will get more sides from injecting long lasting frequently. Say you inject 250mg of sus twice a week. the first time it is 250mg and the second time is 250mg plus the test that is left over from first injection...the androgens keep building up with every subsequent injection. Even at once a week this still happens.

LOL...im not sure if im following you bro but if you are injecting sust twice a week at 250mg per inject you are injecting 500mg correct? so what the problem?

what this suggests, is that everyday that goes by the sythetic form of test decreases a lot faster then we have thought.

read this: im not saying it true but this is the reason i posted this:

NOw lets look at Injections of Test Enthanate every 4 days with 250 mg.
Blood levels are all over the place and create many dips and spikes.
Not a prime anabolic environment. It takes 7 days and 3 injections to even get to 500 mg(498) adn then continues to dip and spike the 500 mark until week 4 but then the spikes are over 600 mg. This daily flucuation cannot be good for combating sides or keeping steady growth rate.
The other way to look at it is $$$$. 500 ed levels would be more economical. You'd gain more.
I wonder if the 2 grams a week guys would do better on 1 gram injected every day vs 3x a week.


DAY INJECT TOTAL

1 250 238
2 0 207
3 0 180
4 250 394
5 0 343
6 0 299
7 250 498
8 0 433
9 0 377
10 250 566
11 0 493
12 0 429
13 250 611
14 0 532
15 0 463
16 250 640
17 0 558
18 0 485
19 250 660
20 0 575
21 0 500
22 250 673
23 0 586
24 0 510
25 250 681
26 0 593
27 0 518
28 250 687
29 0 598
30 0 521

and so on.

 

[bicepts101]

I dont have any problems or sides from injecting in ways that produce unstable blood levels. People try to argue, especially with sust, that stable blood levels will produce better gains. But IMO that's b.s. As long as I get the total amount of mg's I want to inject per week, I dont care what my blood levels look like.

for YOU, blood levels may not be relavant to side effects....but to people that are prone they are very relavant.....lets remeber that we are all different bro so what effects you may not effect me. you cant just say since it doesnt happen to you its hocus pocus.

 

[Outtlaw]

for YOU, blood levels may not be relavant to side effects....but to people that are prone they are very relavant.....lets remeber that we are all different bro so what effects you may not effect me. you cant just say since it doesnt happen to you its hocus pocus.

True, but sides are one thing... gains are another. Since I dont have to worry about those sides, Im only concerned about what affects my gains.

 

[bicepts101]

True, but sides are one thing... gains are another. Since I dont have to worry about those sides, Im only concerned about what affects my gains.

and right fully so...i would do the same thing

but consider this...what if more frequent injections of your longer ester cycles yeilded you more gains? that exactly what my post suggests(not me but the guy who wrote it)

 

[Outtlaw]

and right fully so...i would do the same thing

but consider this...what if more frequent injections of your longer ester cycles yeilded you more gains? that exactly what my post suggests(not me but the guy who wrote it)

Well that'd be worth looking into, but considering that it didnt make a difference with sust, I would be doubtfull about enanthate. But only way to know for sure is to test it out.

 

[bicepts101]

^^^^more input please

 

[Madcow2]

Sust is a blend of short and long esters - it's really irrelevant to this theory on purely long esters except that theoretically shorter esters would benefit the most from increases injection frequency so Sust users would benefit more than Enathate users.

This really all comes down to a balance of convenience and benefits. The more frequent the injection the less convenient and the more stable the blood levels the more the benefit is increased. There is a point of diminishing returns though as the benefit to stable blood levels won't accrue linearly (meaning, no one is running a timed drip directly into the blood stream and getting these incredible outsized gains with no sides vs. the guy injecting ED).

So, the question really becomes - what additional benefits are measurably gained and at what point does the incremental benefit from an additional injection/dosage over a period become small enough to outweigh the hassle. Similar to dbol dosage during the day: Is 3x per day evenly split better than 1x - yes and there is probably some measurable benefit for most users. Is 8x per day better than 3x per day - yes but how much greater is the benefit vs. 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x, 7x?

The biggest issue is that no one outside of the original manufacturers have bothered to look at this stuff at all and their purpose in manufacturing wasn't optimal strength/muscle growth. This would also be very hard stuff to test as you'd need a large population of trainees (due to the varriance in suseptibility to sides and ability to gain) as well as an environment that controlled training, diet, and rest.

Purely conjecture but I'd venture that for purely long esters (enanthate/cyp/dec/etc) more than twice a week is probably not going to matter much and beyond 3x is likely going to produce a benefit that is likely unmeasurable with significance. Sust is a different story due to the short esters and their small concentration once the ester weight is factored in. I'd imagine 3x weekly would produce some measurable effect vs. 1x or 2x but ED probably wouldn't be much different than 4x. This is all pulled straight from my ass but I imagine it's not too far from what would be found.

 

[shamrock11]

OK first off half lives of esterfied drugs are calculated by the esters in the drug not the carbons. Second off there is now way to keep a drug level exactly constant. Half lives are a functions of how well the drug is excreted from the body and this can be effected by a number of different things. Half lives are a perfect case secinaro and our bodies are far from perfect. The half life of Test Euthanate is 10.5 days by the way. Any drug in the body doesn't reach stedy state concentrations until it's fifth half life. This goes for steroid and any perscribed drug. The first example you gave is something used in medicine called front loading, which makes the drug reach steady state levels much more quickly and the following would be what are called maintance doses. The sides are not caused by rises and dips in the drug concentrations, but by the steady state concentrations. I can explaine in more detail later I have to go to class. PM if you would like a better explination. I tried to make it as simple as I could.

 

[bicepts101]

OK first off half lives of esterfied drugs are calculated by the esters in the drug not the carbons. Second off there is now way to keep a drug level exactly constant. Half lives are a functions of how well the drug is excreted from the body and this can be effected by a number of different things. Half lives are a perfect case secinaro and our bodies are far from perfect. The half life of Test Euthanate is 10.5 days by the way. Any drug in the body doesn't reach stedy state concentrations until it's fifth half life. This goes for steroid and any perscribed drug. The first example you gave is something used in medicine called front loading, which makes the drug reach steady state levels much more quickly and the following would be what are called maintance doses. The sides are not caused by rises and dips in the drug concentrations, but by the steady state concentrations. I can explaine in more detail later I have to go to class. PM if you would like a better explination. I tried to make it as simple as I could.

lets get one thing straight..i didnt write this...lol

but anyway good input and feel free to go further into detail here

 

[bicepts101]

Sust is a blend of short and long esters - it's really irrelevant to this theory on purely long esters except that theoretically shorter esters would benefit the most from increases injection frequency so Sust users would benefit more than Enathate users.

This really all comes down to a balance of convenience and benefits. The more frequent the injection the less convenient and the more stable the blood levels the more the benefit is increased. There is a point of diminishing returns though as the benefit to stable blood levels won't accrue linearly (meaning, no one is running a timed drip directly into the blood stream and getting these incredible outsized gains with no sides vs. the guy injecting ED).

So, the question really becomes - what additional benefits are measurably gained and at what point does the incremental benefit from an additional injection/dosage over a period become small enough to outweigh the hassle. Similar to dbol dosage during the day: Is 3x per day evenly split better than 1x - yes and there is probably some measurable benefit for most users. Is 8x per day better than 3x per day - yes but how much greater is the benefit vs. 3x, 4x, 5x, 6x, 7x?

The biggest issue is that no one outside of the original manufacturers have bothered to look at this stuff at all and their purpose in manufacturing wasn't optimal strength/muscle growth. This would also be very hard stuff to test as you'd need a large population of trainees (due to the varriance in suseptibility to sides and ability to gain) as well as an environment that controlled training, diet, and rest.

Purely conjecture but I'd venture that for purely long esters (enanthate/cyp/dec/etc) more than twice a week is probably not going to matter much and beyond 3x is likely going to produce a benefit that is likely unmeasurable with significance. Sust is a different story due to the short esters and their small concentration once the ester weight is factored in. I'd imagine 3x weekly would produce some measurable effect vs. 1x or 2x but ED probably wouldn't be much different than 4x. This is all pulled straight from my ass but I imagine it's not too far from what would be found.

these are very good points here....i dont think it would be worth it but somebody might

 

[solidspine]

I love the long esters, mainly because I only have to inject once a week! works great!

 

[idcbp]

I think the more frequently one injects the more stable ones blood levels will be. What is relative is the degree of benefit gained from additional injections. At some point the bother of more injections outweighs the benefits gained in blood levels. I think in the real world we've found the the degree of increased stablization to be negligible and lacking in noticable benefits in terems of sides or gains. Thats why it isn't put into practice.

 

[UA_Iron]

how is a constantly increasing blood serum level 'stable' ?

In regards to the article, big words do not equal science. I am skeptical at best.

 

[bicepts101]

I am skeptical at best.

me too that why i posted it...i was hoping to get some answers from people who KNOW...i got one or two

 

[The Shadow]

The longer the ester the more "anabolic" ratio....



discuss.....

 

[shamrock11]

lets get one thing straight..i didnt write this...lol

but anyway good input and feel free to go further into detail here

LOL! Yes I know you did not write it. I apologize if I made my response seem like it was focused toward you. I was trying to get done before I went to class. The bottom line is the only way you can truely get a steady state level at a particular concentration is doing blood draws to check the levels. I can tell you now it is impossible to get a steady state at the exact same concentration. All drug have a range they need to fall within and it's for that very reason. Some drugs have a very narrow range like (digoxin) or a very wide one like aspirin.