~Hypothetical Scenario~ Which will make you gain more muscle - long term cycle length

[Mavy]

Ok, with all the long and short and long and short cycling length talk going on lately, I want to get some feedback on what you guys think would yeild more net gains from the 2 scenarios below. THis is basically a long and short cycle comparison .. but over the long run. I want to see if you guys believe in diminshing returns after a while on a cycle, and if you think that its worth it staying on longer for the more weight gain. Or if you believe in hitting it hard for a shorter time, until gains start to slow down, then start recovery ASAP.

For these scenarios, I am just going to choose the best and most common drugs Test/Deca/dbol. The shorter cycle will be using faster versions to clear quicker, and higher dosages as well compared to the longer cycle.

The duration of the scenario is 1 year exactly. So over the course of 1 year, assuming that time on equals time off, this means that you could do exactly 2 - 13 weekers, or 4 - 6.5 weekers. Here we go.

Option #1. Big Billy's Cycling approach
Cycle1: 13 wks (Wks 1-13)
Wk1-6: Dbol 25mg/day
Wk1-13: Test Enanthate 500mg/wk
Wk1-13: Deca Durabolin 300mg/wk

Wk14-26
PCT and OFF TIME.
PCT would probably start around wk17 by the time all drugs clear

Cycle2: 13 wks. (Wks 27-39) - same cycle as above
Wk1-6: Dbol 25mg/day
Wk1-13: Test Enanthate 400mg/wk
Wk1-13: Deca Durabolin 300mg/wk

Wk40-52
PCT and OFF TIME

End of yearly cycles = 2 cycles at 13 wks a piece.
Time on = Time off.

OR ------------------------------------------------------------------


Option #2. Big Jimmy's Cycling approach
#1. Cycle: 6.5 wks (Wks 1-6.5)
Wk1-6.5: Dbol 40mg/day
Wk1-6.5: Test Prop 200mg/EOD (700mg/wk)
Wk1-6.5: NPP 150mg/EOD (525mg/wk)

Wk6.5-13
PCT and OFF TIME. PCT would start immedieately

#2. Cycle: 6.5 wks (Wks 13-19.5)
Same cycle as above (not going to write it out each time)

Wk 19.5-26
PCT and OFF TIME. PCT would start immedieately

#3. Cycle: 6.5 wks (Wks 26-32.5)
Same cycle as above (not going to write it out each time)

Wk 32.5-39
PCT and OFF TIME. PCT would start immedieately

#4. Cycle: 6.5 wks (Wks 39-45.5)
Same cycle as above (not going to write it out each time)

Wk 45.5-52
PCT and OFF TIME. PCT would start immedieately

End of yearly cycles = 4 cycles at 6 1/2 wks a piece.
Time on = Time off.
------------------------------------------------------------


I want to here you guys thoughts on a few things here. Who do you think will add more mass in the run of a year? Big Billy (with his 2 milder but long cycles), or Big Jimmy (with his 4 shorter, but stronger cycles)????

Also, what do you think is a safer way of cycling as far as sides go? Do you feel that the longer you are exposed to a drug the more inclined you are to experience some sides from it? Or the harder it is to recover from it? Or do you feel you will get more sides from upping the dose slightly, for a shorter time. Keep in mind that Big Jimmys cycle is really roughly only 1.5 months.

This is really a matter of if you believe in diminishing returns or not, and taking advantage of the window of immediate growth during a cycle. I personally feel that the most gains in a cycle for me, come within the first 6 weeks. If I go longer, ... sure I will still gain, but not as much, nor as fast as the first 6 wks. My idea is, to hit it good with the juice fast, take advantage of the "window" of great gains withing the first 6,5 wks. Then start recovery ASAP. Would I gain more weight staying on for 13 wks? Yes more than likely, but would it be enough to justify staying on and staying shut down for the extra 6 weeks? When i could be recovering, and almost ready to cycle again with full intensity by the time the other option is ending? Again, i do think that the choice of gear here is key. For Jimmys cycle to be effective, obviously you need to use faster acting gear.


Jimmy runs twice as many cycles in the run of a year than Billy does. This is twice as many times growing with anabolics, but each time is shorter. He also uses higher dosages, and does not have to wait to start start PCT, where he can do it ASAP. This way of cycling seems to be more efficient to me, and seems to take out a lot of "dead" time. On the other end, many users say that Jimmys way of cycling and running 4 cycles per year is to much of a roller coaster ride for your hormones.

I know that there are advocates of both cycles out there so lets here your thoughts. I know some people run multiple 2-3 weekers while others stay on all year, so there is quite a variety. But given the two scenarios above who do you think will end up with more mass over the course of 1 year

Billy: Who runs 2 lighter longer phases with anabolics
or
Jimmy: Who runs 4 stronger shorter phases with anabolics


Lets here your thoughts folks.
Mavy

 

[gregory]

I would say billy. But it all depends on the individual so much that no one can really tell.

 

[Mavy]

How so? Are you saying that people respond differently to different durations that they have aas in their system? Well, you are probably right, .. but aside from the "everyone is different" clause, assuming Billy and Jimmy are the exact same somatotype, and same weight, lets here what people have to say.

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Re: ~Hypothetical Scenario~ Which will make you gain more muscle - long term cycle le

this is a very good thread mavy..well laid out and shows you took time to start this duscussion..but i dont think the reply's should be based on guessing..personally i have never run a short cycle (other than var for 7 weeks) most everything has been 10-12 weeks..so i cant give my experience and say what has been better..hopefully will get more reply's from those that have have done both types of cycles

 

[Mavy]

True beast. I have ran both short and long cycles. Long being 12 average, and short being 4 (the last cycle I ran was supposed be 6 but i cut it short at 4). After my last cycle I am convinced that shorter cycles are the way to go. I couldnt believe what happened in just 4 wks of test/npp/dbol. I am still sitting on 7lbs of the 10lbs from it 1 month later. I was so impressed that I am thinking that I may run it again in Nov for the full 6 weeks. If I want to use any long esters, than I will run the cycle 12 weeks, this maybe the case as I may run EQ this time around instead. I am not against longer cycles, I am just surprised at how effective and effecient shorter cycles can be. I find that if you are running shorter cycles, not only is fast acting gear a good idea, but training full body twice per week is a good idea as well, to maximize more muscle breakdown in the shorter period of time.

On the other side, many people claim it is easier to harden your gains and hang onto them if you run a longer cycle. I am wondering what it is they are talking about that they try to maintain? The gains that they make in the first half of the cycle? Make great gains in the first 8 weeks, then stay on another 5 weeks to maintain and solidify them? I think that you can maintain your gains after the best growth part of a cycle by incorporating a great PCT, great supps, keep diet on track and taining on par as well. With all these in place the only thing that you should loose is a little water.

 

[GoldenDelicious]

this is a hugely complicated question, and is made worse by the inter-individual variation in the response to drugs at different doses.

basically both of these guys could be blown away by Fred, who is a super responder to testosterone 250mg/week for 2 8 week cycles.

anyway the main issue in my mind isnt how much these guys will gain; personally it looks as if the growth they will get is even, or will flat out come down to the inter individual variations in response, training, nutrition, sleep etc etc. rather, im thinking about the post cycle issues taht will pop up. id say the guy doing two 12 weekers is at higher risk of having a screwed up hpta, so really, at the end of the day, the issue may not be who is going to have more mass after precisely a year, but rather, which of the two guys is going to have nice healthy testes, a balanced hpta, and the long term ability to hold mass past the one year point. say, to the 18 month mark.

also, id say taht the risk of dose related sides is greater in the guy doing the short, high dose cycles - particularly the gynecomastia issue

i would be considering shortish (8 weeks or so) low dose cycles (250 test and thats it) rather than any of the two regimes above

cheers

 

[Mavy]

hmm .. interesting gd.

aside from the inter-individual variation in the response to drugs at different doses between people .. I am hypothetically saying .. these two are the exact same. Which do you think is a more effective and safer way of cycling.

So, do you think that someone who stays on longer has a harder time recovering than someone on for a shorter time but who uses higher dosages?

 

[GoldenDelicious]

Re: ~Hypothetical Scenario~ Which will make you gain more muscle - long term cycle le

So, do you think that someone who stays on longer has a harder time recovering than someone on for a shorter time but who uses higher dosages?

yes.

if you want to know the cut off for cycle length, in weeks, i cant tell you. i dont know. but in general, yes, the longer the cycle, regardless of dose, the greater your chances of screwing up normalisation of your hpta. also, the higher your doses, the greater your chances of screwing up your hpta. (straightforward stuff)

imo the best thing to do is use the lowest sort of dose, for the shortish sort of time, in such a way that the total duration of gonadal supression (total time your balls are switched off) will be the least. for example, the guy that uses, say, 500mg of sustanon for 12 weeks will not be supressed for the same amount of time as the guy who does an equivalent amount of testosterone suspension, because the guy who uses sustanon will have supraphysiological amounts of testosterone in his body, and therefore be supressed, for AT LEAST 14 weeks, while the guy who uses the testosterone suspension will be supressed for 12 weeks and a day, and can start his PCT right away

the optimal dose and duration will depend on the person, and we could only answer the question with a study comparing lots and lots of people. we have seen some guys use low doses to great effect; guys who use high doses for ages then come off without PCT and have a normalised hpta within weeks; guys who experience no testicular atrophy even after 16 weeks; guys who get raisin balls on week 6...not to mention the response to different agents.

imo the smartest thing for a person to do is 1) get blood tests prior to drug use, then 2) start out using a nice low dose of a single drug like sustanon for, say, 5 weeks, then switching over to testpp on week 5 until week 7, then have a blood test at end of week 8 so that they know just when to start PCT, and then of course follow it up a few weeks later to see how well they have recovered (against their first values) and then consider launching their next cycle, perhaps adjusting it a bit based on how well they responded during the first cycle- maybe increase the dose a little if gains were poor, or shortening the cycle if recovery was poor, or even considering a bit of front loading if they noticed that they just exploded on, say, week 4, to get a bit more out of the next one

id love to answer the question better but its all bullshit without a few studies to back it up, so all we can do is start low, go slow, and be on the ball with bloodwork/reference values/follow up, and try to systematically test the tolerances of the individual. basic stuff, just use your head, and dont jump straight to highish doses (even 500 test a week alone is high for a newbie, for example, imo) because thats what everyone seems to be doing, and most of all, look at the big picture- that being, how healthy your balls/hpta are going to be after it all, so that you arent one of those sad guys stuck on the steroid merry go round

cheers

 

[wnt2bBeast]

Re: ~Hypothetical Scenario~ Which will make you gain more muscle - long term cycle le

True beast. I have ran both short and long cycles. Long being 12 average, and short being 4 (the last cycle I ran was supposed be 6 but i cut it short at 4). After my last cycle I am convinced that shorter cycles are the way to go. I couldnt believe what happened in just 4 wks of test/npp/dbol. I am still sitting on 7lbs of the 10lbs from it 1 month later. I was so impressed that I am thinking that I may run it again in Nov for the full 6 weeks. If I want to use any long esters, than I will run the cycle 12 weeks, this maybe the case as I may run EQ this time around instead. I am not against longer cycles, I am just surprised at how effective and effecient shorter cycles can be. I find that if you are running shorter cycles, not only is fast acting gear a good idea, but training full body twice per week is a good idea as well, to maximize more muscle breakdown in the shorter period of time.

I totally agree with you on your choice of gear short cycles you need fast acting gear..no sense in waiting for enanthate to kick in wk 5 when your only running a 4-6 week cycle..

On the other side, many people claim it is easier to harden your gains and hang onto them if you run a longer cycle. I am wondering what it is they are talking about that they try to maintain? The gains that they make in the first half of the cycle? Make great gains in the first 8 weeks, then stay on another 5 weeks to maintain and solidify them? I think that you can maintain your gains after the best growth part of a cycle by incorporating a great PCT, great supps, keep diet on track and taining on par as well. With all these in place the only thing that you should loose is a little water.

I think when running long or extremely long cycles you need to change the type of gear you run ( use test as a base but run deca for x weeks then run tren for x weeks eq for x)..by changing the gear the body reacts differently to each compund and thus shouldnt get stale..of course a fluctuation in cals is a must

 

[GoldenDelicious]

by the way, didnt mean to sound as if the only variant is the drug regime - i neglected to menton any differences in training/nutrition/sleep/sicknesses/age etc, because obviously, you have to take those things into account as much, if not more, as your drug use - i wont bore you with comparisons of guys who train well, eat well, and use low doses of single agents, and those who eat like crap, train like crap, but use shocking amounts of gear (you know, the "inject anything i can get my hands on" crowd)

cheers

 

[BigAndy69]

My philosophy on cycling has always been fairly simple, I adjust my gear use with the type of training and eating I do.

Personally, I cannot keep intensity all that high for more than 8 weeks at a time or I burnout.

So I schedule my cycles accordingly, 6-7 weeks of extremely intense lifting and eating (sometimes 7000 calories a day), I follow it by a couple of maintenance weeks where I lower my doses, calories and gym intensity gradually...finally finishing up with Anavar only.

For cutting, I use lower doses, just enough to hold on to muscle mass as I cut calories.

 

[Juice Authority]

My philosophy on cycling has always been fairly simple, I adjust my gear use with the type of training and eating I do.

Personally, I cannot keep intensity all that high for more than 8 weeks at a time or I burnout.

So I schedule my cycles accordingly, 6-7 weeks of extremely intense lifting and eating (sometimes 7000 calories a day), I follow it by a couple of maintenance weeks where I lower my doses, calories and gym intensity gradually...finally finishing up with Anavar only.

For cutting, I use lower doses, just enough to hold on to muscle mass as I cut calories.

That seems like a perfectly logical philosophy. How long do you usually run this type of cycle and how many times a year do you run it?

 

[Mavy]

Good points both of you. GD so you think that somewhere inbetween is the ideal length 8wk-ish mark? Aside from the whole recovery issue, what i am trying to get at, is when do the best gains come during a steroid cycle, and is it necessary to stay on past this point or if you would be better off ending the cycle and starting the recovery.

But I guess you are right that recover does play a role in this hypothetical situation becuase it will have an effect on who can maintain gains better postcycle. I was always curious about whether there are differnet "degrees" of HPTA suppression based on cycle length, and cycle potency, or ... if you are either just shut down, or not, seeing as how you are shutdown within 24-48hrs of any aas intake.

 

[Dial_tone]

I will go with Big Jimmy because:

1. for me most gains come in the first 7-8 weeks of a cycle.
2. The drugs in Big Jimmy's stack will bring higher quality gains (less water retention)
3. You get the psychological benefit of only having to wait 6 weeks before you go back on.

 

[BigAndy69]

That seems like a perfectly logical philosophy. How long do you usually run this type of cycle and how many times a year do you run it?

Usually, I run one big cycle a year in the winther time, to coincide with the holiday season since I won't be cutting anyway. I start my grueling schedule 1 week before my cycle to get me into it. I do 7 weeks of hell and high doses. Eating is extreme, to the point where I feel like shit all the time. Training is downright scary.

I gain a lot of weight and after the 7 weeks, my job is to keep the gains I've made. I don't just jump in PCT, I gradually lower my dose for 2 weeks (still using some injectables, usually Test prop) and add anavar. My calories and traing volume drop as well. I'm shifting my focus from gaining to maintenance. Eventually, I end up using anavar only to end this cycle which usually lasts about 12 weeks.

I used to do this twice a year, but I can no longer do it for more than once a year...it's too demanding.

The rest of the time, I do "cutting cycles" since I am an endomorph afterall.

Right now, I'm on a fairly heavy cutting cycle, about 1200mg total...during my 7 weeks of hell, I will go up to 1800-2200mg

 

[BigAndy69]

That seems like a perfectly logical philosophy. How long do you usually run this type of cycle and how many times a year do you run it?

JA here's a more detailed post about how I cycle:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=285822

 

[GoldenDelicious]

Re: ~Hypothetical Scenario~ Which will make you gain more muscle - long term cycle le

Good points both of you. GD so you think that somewhere inbetween is the ideal length 8wk-ish mark? Aside from the whole recovery issue, what i am trying to get at, is when do the best gains come during a steroid cycle, and is it necessary to stay on past this point or if you would be better off ending the cycle and starting the recovery.

But I guess you are right that recover does play a role in this hypothetical situation becuase it will have an effect on who can maintain gains better postcycle. I was always curious about whether there are differnet "degrees" of HPTA suppression based on cycle length, and cycle potency, or ... if you are either just shut down, or not, seeing as how you are shutdown within 24-48hrs of any aas intake.

its a hard sort of thing to answer, since all we have to go off is raw weight, which then leaves us wondering how much of that weight is water? is it intramuscular? or just subcutaneous (the rate at which the water will leave these areas will be different, after the cycle ends, which further complicates exactly what weight is where) how much is undigested food, since most people eat a whole lot more on cycle, and as a result, will have more food and faecal matter in their bodies at any one time.

so when we're trying to work out just how much is lean muscle mass, we cant even use strength as an indication- since the muscle tissue being bloated with water will result in greater muscle contractility. i suppose you could use a catscan/mri or something to work it out, but who the hell is going to do that to large groups of people?

like i said earlier, the only way youre going to end up working this sort of thing out is to study large numbers of people using different roids for different durations, BUT logically, you have to say to yourself, there are many processes in the body which will be limited by some sort of consumptive restraint- that is, something ends up being used up totally, and it slows the whole process down- so logically, more growth should happen sooner, rather than later in the cycle, since there is a greater chance that whatever is being used up later on will be present in reasonable quantities early on.

as for your later paragraph on how supression actually works, well youd have to get into the biochemistry and endocrinology of the whole thing- some of the negative feedback processes that you will find take some time to actually start working, and conversely, some of the processes that will result in restimulation of test production (or whatever) will also take a while to get going - and of course many of these processes feed off of each other, are inter-related and overlap- meaning as soon as you mess with one, they all get out of kilter, and it becomes a huge tangle of bullshit that leaves you scratching your head.

one of the important aspects of supression, particularly long term, taht is relevant, is the changes that actually happen to the tissue itself - everyone thinks of supression as being blood hormone levels only, but when you think about, say, testicular atrophy, it becomes clear that some tissue changes will occur as part of supression that cant be fixed by simply re-regulating a hormone or 2- the tissue itself may be damaged/reduced, perhaps permanently, which is going to change the absolute capacity the body has to make certain things. this sort of thing is FAR more likely to happen in longer cycles, which is probably why guys on longer cycles have more...stubborn?...hpta supression

bigandy69 is an example of the sort of dynamic drug use that is probably the best way to go, since he is more wholistic in his approach

this is a good thread by the way, lots of people should have a think about this sort of stuff

 

[GoldenDelicious]

oh, about the ideal length- yeah, im starting to think that 8ish weeks or less is the way to go, but not strictly pharmaceutically- as andy said, people burn out after too long, and something like 8 weeks is a good, manageable sort of timeframe in which to clear your head and go hard with your training. also, i based that length on the sorts of drugs that are readily available- many people out there use the longer half life stuff, so i can hardly say that a 3 week cycle is the way to go (even though, in many ways, these ultra short cycles seem quite good) since most people are using sustanon- whats a guy supposed to do, use a drug with a 2 week active life to complete a 3 week cycle? not really feasable. also, since some guys will mistime their drug use or have some slight supression, its probably a good idea to make sure they have enough time (8 weeks) to build up a decent amount of tissue, so that they dont find themselves back where they started, if their recovery doesnt go well. imagine some guy gaining, say, 8 lbs in 3 weeks, then having a recovery that takes 5 weeks, and losing the lot. again, not a good tactic. sure you ahve to think that guys doing ultra short cycles are not likely to have terribly bad recoveries, but still, overall, a 7-8 week cycle seems about right to me.

maybe if we were using some of the harsher agents that really get working fast, like trenbolone, i would be a stronger proponent of short cycles, but as it is, given my preference for endogenous hormones (ie test over some synthetic like tren) im leaning towards the 7-8 weekers

 

[satchboogie]

this is quite interesting!

big bump!

 

[slat1]

I checked off Big Billy. I tend to like to run two ten weekers a year. I generally use longer acting esters. At 240... I rarely hit a gram in a week. I always use HCG during and Clomid after the esters clear. Maybe I'm just a minimalist?!!? I keep growing... slow and steady.
Interesting thread!

 

[DJ_UFO]

This is the kind of old posts that I miss...thanks Mavy.

BUMP!!

 

[The_Chemist]

I've pretty much just done th big Jimmy cycles in the past, but now am experimenting with the Big Billy philosophy. Around 1000-1200mg/week for long durations. 24 weeks.

I also am switching compunds every 6 weeks.

 

[JAYMAN014]

I have done both cycle and as I explained in my post these where my results.

1.) 12wks DECA/TEST 500mg/Each Gained 18-20pds Net. 12-15pds 24wks/wPCT

2.) 6wks NPP/TEST 450mg NPP/ 250mg test/ Gained 15pds Net.10-12 12wk/wPCT
multipliy this by (2) for 30pds & net 20-24 w/ better rocovery, less sides. Better gains.

I am sold on short cycles,Thanks Mavy.

 

[oatsandgrains]

The body goes through what are called negativce feedback loops while on steriods. What happens is your body will try and remain normal while YOU want to get fuckin huge. Who wins? Depends on how long your cycles are. It takes your body roughly 2.5 - 3 weeks to notice that you are fuckin with your system and start producing NEGATIVE SIDE EFFECTS such as cortisol, estrogen, progesterone...etc. Starting your anti cortisols and anti estrogens etc around the 3 week point puts an end to this. 35 days on 35 days off. Post cycle should consist of anti estrogens and anti cortisols for another 2 weeks plus effedrine and clenbuterol EOD to keep you away from being catabolic and stricktly anabolic. Oh and not to forget HCG or Clomid.......did i even have to metion these? common.
Star the cycles with androgenic steroids to gain the size and finish them with more anabolic steroids to solidify your gains. Get in, hit it hard, and get the fuck out before your body catches on. 6 cycles at year baby!!!

oats and grains
two scoops of raisins
half man
half amazin

 

[DJ_UFO]

I'm gettin' interested in Big Billy....

 

[Texas Ranger]

It seems like 6 week cycles with short esters(ie.Test Prop, NPP, Winstrol & Dbol) are the way to go!! 4 cycles a year should make for some good REALLY progress.

 

[Mavy]

The body goes through what are called negativce feedback loops while on steriods. What happens is your body will try and remain normal while YOU want to get fuckin huge. Who wins? Depends on how long your cycles are. It takes your body roughly 2.5 - 3 weeks to notice that you are fuckin with your system and start producing NEGATIVE SIDE EFFECTS such as cortisol, estrogen, progesterone...etc. Starting your anti cortisols and anti estrogens etc around the 3 week point puts an end to this. 35 days on 35 days off. Post cycle should consist of anti estrogens and anti cortisols for another 2 weeks plus effedrine and clenbuterol EOD to keep you away from being catabolic and stricktly anabolic. Oh and not to forget HCG or Clomid.......did i even have to metion these? common.
Star the cycles with androgenic steroids to gain the size and finish them with more anabolic steroids to solidify your gains. Get in, hit it hard, and get the fuck out before your body catches on. 6 cycles at year baby!!!

oats and grains
two scoops of raisins
half man
half amazin

Good post, except clen and stims are catabolic.

 

[Mavy]

I also like your theory of get in, then get out before the body knows whats going on. I think this is a good point with sides, as a lot of the time the longer you are on, the greater chance of getting sides. However you still become supressed within 48 hours of taking any AAS. So I believe that PCT should still be run for any lenght of cycle, it will just be easier to recover from the shorter one.

 

[Texas Ranger]

I have done both cycle and as I explained in my post these where my results.

1.) 12wks DECA/TEST 500mg/Each Gained 18-20pds Net. 12-15pds 24wks/wPCT

2.) 6wks NPP/TEST 450mg NPP/ 250mg test/ Gained 15pds Net.10-12 12wk/wPCT
multipliy this by (2) for 30pds & net 20-24 w/ better rocovery, less sides. Better gains.

I am sold on short cycles,Thanks Mavy.

Jayman, were you using Test Prop with this cycle??

 

[oatsandgrains]

Good post, except clen and stims are catabolic.

Not quite. They will not make you burn muscle. They just make it so your body does not burn muscle for energy.

Here is a good cycle. 42 days total with recovery layered in for ya.

3 Stage Max Androgen Phase

Day 1-11
test cyp 200mg and Test Prop 100mg (ODD days(EOD))
Day 13-23
Boldenone Undecylenate 100mg (Every day)
Day 24 and day 26
Boldenone Undecylenate 50mg and Nandrolone Deconate 150mg
Day 28 - 34
Nadrolone Deconate 200mg (EOD)
Day 36
Nandrolone Deconate 100mg and Tren 50mg
Day 38 - 42
Tren 100mg

Liquidex 1-1.5mg daily
Day 43-56 T-3 25mcg 2/day, Clen 80-120mcg 1/Day, PGF-2a 1mg 2-4/day, Clomid 50mg/day

Negative feedback loops or action reactions factors are the things that negativley affects our bodies and our gains in muscle. Factors like long cycles, higher aromatizing cycles lacking and anabolic transition phase, bad dieting, high cortisol and high estrogen levels, poor rest, recovery times, and definetley post-cycle training are to blame for loss of tissue post cycle.

SIMPLE : Short cycles are better for gains and they are BETTER FOR YOU. Prove me wrong. I would like to see anyone try.

 

[Mavy]

Well ... I agree that short cycles are more bang for their buck, and easier on you (well easier to recover from anyways). But that cycle you have mentioned above does not make a whole lot of sense to me. Why use long acting depots? Why take Clomid while you still have deca in your system? Fast gear like prop, NPP, tren, dbol, winny, anavar etc are the way to go for short cycles. There is no "dead" time waiting for depots to clear ... you can start PCT immediately, and its just a more efficient way to cycle. I think a better example for a short cycle, and a more effective one would be something like this ....

Day1: 500mg of Sustanon
Day7: 500mg of Test Enanthate
Day14: 200mg of Test Enanthate

Wk1-3
NPP: 200mg E3D
Dbol: 30mg/day

Wk4-6
NPP: 200mg E3D
Winny: 50mg/day

Run Cabergoline throughout, and start PCT with HCG in wk7. There are different ways you can do this, like running prop throughout, or you can switch up drugs for tren var etc... This is how my next cycle is going to look, except I am going to substitute winny for var, or run the dbol the whole way through. No better combo than nandrolones and dbol.

I guess that I find the cycle you have listed more confusing than anything .. bit of a roller coaster. Why not keep it simple? Simple and effective.

Mavy

 

[Texas Ranger]

Well ... I agree that short cycles are more bang for their buck, and easier on you (well easier to recover from anyways). But that cycle you have mentioned above does not make a whole lot of sense to me. Why use long acting depots? Why take Clomid while you still have deca in your system? Fast gear like prop, NPP, tren, dbol, winny, anavar etc are the way to go for short cycles. There is no "dead" time waiting for depots to clear ... you can start PCT immediately, and its just a more efficient way to cycle. I think a better example for a short cycle, and a more effective one would be something like this ....

Day1: 500mg of Sustanon
Day7: 500mg of Test Enanthate
Day14: 200mg of Test Enanthate

Wk1-3
NPP: 200mg EOD
Dbol: 30mg/day

Wk4-6
NPP: 200mg EOD
Winny: 50mg/day

Run Cabergoline throughout, and start PCT with HCG in wk7. There are different ways you can do this, like running prop throughout, or you can switch up drugs for tren var etc... This is how my next cycle is going to look, except I am going to substitute winny for var, or run the dbol the whole way through. No better combo than nandrolones and dbol.

I guess that I find the cycle you have listed more confusing than anything .. bit of a roller coaster. Why not keep it simple? Simple and effective.

Mavy

Mavy, your cycle looks MUCH better using shorter ester gear. Good job!!

 

[oatsandgrains]

Well ... I agree that short cycles are more bang for their buck, and easier on you (well easier to recover from anyways). But that cycle you have mentioned above does not make a whole lot of sense to me. Why use long acting depots?

Why take Clomid while you still have deca in your system?

Fast gear like prop, NPP, tren, dbol, winny, anavar etc are the way to go for short cycles. There is no "dead" time waiting for depots to clear ... you can start PCT immediately, and its just a more efficient way to cycle. I think a better example for a short cycle, and a more effective one would be something like this ....

Day1: 500mg of Sustanon
Day7: 500mg of Test Enanthate
Day14: 200mg of Test Enanthate

Wk1-3
NPP: 200mg E3D
Dbol: 30mg/day

Wk4-6
NPP: 200mg E3D
Winny: 50mg/day

Run Cabergoline throughout, and start PCT with HCG in wk7. There are different ways you can do this, like running prop throughout, or you can switch up drugs for tren var etc... This is how my next cycle is going to look, except I am going to substitute winny for var, or run the dbol the whole way through. No better combo than nandrolones and dbol.

I guess that I find the cycle you have listed more confusing than anything .. bit of a roller coaster. Why not keep it simple? Simple and effective.

Mavy

The cycle I listed above was a bit of a rollercoaster in the sense that I layered in a few drugs using their half lives to determine when and how much to use. I kept a sustained threshhold level through the entire cycle. And if you noticed there was also a transition from androgenic to anabolic at the end of the cycle to solidify lean muscle gains. The reason you start clomid that soon is simple and smart. Your body will totally shut off your nuts around 2.5 weeks. Start the clomid halfway through your 30 day cycle and BAM: "look Ma, post protocol BIG NUTS!!" Shutting down your system when you don't have to is not cool so why do it? Its all about action/reaction factors here: Your body reacts, then you do. Your body gives you negative sides so you just counteract them.

If it was written out in a chart it would be way easier to understand because it is very simple. One thing about your cycle that makes no sense to me is starting PCT in wk 7. Why would you wait until your test levels drop tons to start pct? You are very catabolic during this period because you have totally shut down your hpta in such a long cycle.

two scoops

 

[oatsandgrains]

bump

 

[Mavy]

The cycle I listed above was a bit of a rollercoaster in the sense that I layered in a few drugs using their half lives to determine when and how much to use. I kept a sustained threshhold level through the entire cycle. And if you noticed there was also a transition from androgenic to anabolic at the end of the cycle to solidify lean muscle gains. The reason you start clomid that soon is simple and smart. Your body will totally shut off your nuts around 2.5 weeks. Start the clomid halfway through your 30 day cycle and BAM: "look Ma, post protocol BIG NUTS!!" Shutting down your system when you don't have to is not cool so why do it? Its all about action/reaction factors here: Your body reacts, then you do. Your body gives you negative sides so you just counteract them.

If it was written out in a chart it would be way easier to understand because it is very simple. One thing about your cycle that makes no sense to me is starting PCT in wk 7. Why would you wait until your test levels drop tons to start pct? You are very catabolic during this period because you have totally shut down your hpta in such a long cycle.

two scoops

Eh bro .. sounds like you may be a little bit confused here. What do you mean by this ...

"Your body will totally shut off your nuts around 2.5 weeks. Start the clomid halfway through your 30 day cycle and BAM: "look Ma, post protocol BIG NUTS!!"

Where are you getting the 2.5wks from? You become suppressed within 48 hrs of any aas intake. Clomid will do absolutely nothing to restore testicular mass! Clomid is an anti-estrogen. HCG can have give you a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, and I would have no problem running this throughout a cycle, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program, making recovery easier for you postcycle. I prefer to use the PCT protocol referred by DrJMW where you wait til your drugs have cleared, then use HCG as the key focus of your PCT to hit your nutz with a bolus dose HCG, and use anti-es as a supportive role to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as your T levels start to go back up. To me it seems as though your cycle has NO pct!

You take Deca up to Day 42, so really you are taking the deca up until around day 65. Also, I wouldnt end my cycle with Deca and Tren together (I would never run them together any time), to make for an easier recovery. Also, tren is not anabolic like you suggest in switching to at the end of the cycle.

I guess you could run that cycle bro ... but I just think its more effecient running fast acting gear, and keeping it simple bro. You are trying to get to fancy there, and it seems like a big mess to tell you the truth bro.

Mavy

 

[oatsandgrains]

Eh bro .. sounds like you may be a little bit confused here. What do you mean by this ...

"Your body will totally shut off your nuts around 2.5 weeks. Start the clomid halfway through your 30 day cycle and BAM: "look Ma, post protocol BIG NUTS!!"

Where are you getting the 2.5wks from? You become suppressed within 48 hrs of any aas intake. Clomid will do absolutely nothing to restore testicular mass! Clomid is an anti-estrogen. HCG can have give you a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, and I would have no problem running this throughout a cycle, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program, making recovery easier for you postcycle. I prefer to use the PCT protocol referred by DrJMW where you wait til your drugs have cleared, then use HCG as the key focus of your PCT to hit your nutz with a bolus dose HCG, and use anti-es as a supportive role to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as your T levels start to go back up. To me it seems as though your cycle has NO pct!

You take Deca up to Day 42, so really you are taking the deca up until around day 65. Also, I wouldnt end my cycle with Deca and Tren together (I would never run them together any time), to make for an easier recovery. Also, tren is not anabolic like you suggest in switching to at the end of the cycle.

I guess you could run that cycle bro ... but I just think its more effecient running fast acting gear, and keeping it simple bro. You are trying to get to fancy there, and it seems like a big mess to tell you the truth bro.

Mavy

A big mess?!?! HAHAHA! Sorry you can't understand it.
I'm was'nt just talking about testicular size but function too! By me saying post protocol big nuts i was talking about function too. Clomid does restore hpta because it stimulates LH and LSH in a very big way bro. I wasn't trying to get fancy either. I would rather say highly effective utilizing scientific fact. Don't flame me just cause it was "too fancy". Pick up a few books by L.Rea for example and then maybe you won't be just talking from your experience but rather the experiences from thousands of very large and highly fit people.

I could write out an easier one for you if you like.

 

[Mavy]

Fair enough bro. I am not looking to get into a pissing match with you either. You run your cycles how you like, and I will run mine. Good luck with yours. I hope that you can still recover easily from a cycle running clomid while you are taking Deca, and nothing for Post Cycle Therapy. I would also recommend investing in some cabergoline if you want to run Deca and Tren together at the end of a cycle. But then again, its quite abvious you are set in your ways, so Im sure that it dosnet really matter to you what I have to say.

 

[idcbp]

Getting back to the length question, would you all still favor such short cycles if the gear involved wasn't a fast acting oral or a combo, but instead a traditional 500-750 mg. of sustanon of ethanate. While not as complicated I still love these simple cycles and I've always seen my gains really kick in stron around week 5-6. 8 weeks would be a minimum and 12 the usual. What are the general feelings on a longer acting test cycle length-wise?

 

[massatronic]

They are both on juice for 26 weeks a year and Jimmys total dose is larger, one reason to go for one!

I tried a longish cycle (14 wk) and have now binned them. My gains stagnated, I felt I couldn't justify the sides and expense. It also meant that I started too conservatively. Next time I'm going to shock the body with a moderate dose and then pull out before it has time to respond. D-Ball, Sus and maybe Cyp, I'm done with Deca and the 'slow and steady' brigade.

 

[massatronic]

Good post, except clen and stims are catabolic.

Some say caffeine is catabolic others say it is muscle sparing.

Just because it raises you metabolism doesn't prove that it is catabolic- so do AAS.

The term catabolic is chucked around in a generic way but tissue breakdown can occur in fat or muscle (pork pies very anabolic- for your gut!)

If your body is burning up released fatty acids that may product muscle cells and protein in food intake. There was the 80's theory that caffeine prevented protein synthesis as when drunk more protein was pised out, but if this because your burningfat for fuel not protein, is there more protein left for muscle building?

There seem to be arguments for both sides. Maybe it can work as muscle catabolic or anti-catabolic depending upon how and whenit is used? But as for Clen when I use it PCT I seem to hold gains, my training partner who is naturally ripped doesn't bother with it and seems to lose more strength PCT.

 

[Schutzhund1]

I like the 10-12 week option myself (cut long acting esters off at 7-8wks and end with winny or tren while the test eth. leaves the body.

I also think that any properly designed cycle over 3 weeks in length with have HCG factored in (I like the 500iu's twice per week through out the cycle).

One often overlooked aspect of the longer cycles is that dbol when used is usually taken out of the stack midway through the cycle. THis allows the bloat to subside while still "on" so after the cycle, less water is lost post cycle giving the impression that you gained more lean mass than a short cycle ending a 4 weeks with dbol where you loose a ton of water post cycle.