HPTA Facts

[DrJMW]

As athletes, we are most concerned with the "PT" part of the HPTA. "P" being the pituitary and "T" being the Testes. To review, our hormonal responses are based mainly on negative feedback. For example, supragenetic levels of Testosterone or any AAS will signal the pituitary to stop secreting LH and will signal the hypothalamus to stop secreting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GRH). So, during an AAS cycle, we experience low, natural Testos levels, a reduction in testuclar mass, low LH, and low GRH. The goal of PCT (recovery) is to get the HPTA back to normal.

The most important aspect of recovery is getting testicular mass back to normal as quickly as possible. There is only one drug that will do this and do it quickly--HCG. HCG imitates LH (which is suppressed). HCG acts independently of the HPTA suppression and independent of the meds from the AAS cycle. In this situation, the only side effect we need to worry about is the return of estrogen to normal levels (estrogen rebound). Since estrogen is already at very low levels (the athlete used an aromatase inhibitor during his AAS cycle), Nolvadex is sufficient to block the onrush. By the time the athlete is using nolvadex-only, his testes are up to their normal size. And the pituitary begins to release its own LH.

 

[UA_Iron]

always good information Doc. you are certainly an asset to this board

 

[maccer]

so you recommend this treatment even fo a 8 week cycle 250 mg test every 5 days?

 

[PBR]

thanks doc.....

 

[bw1]

always good information Doc. you are certainly an asset to this board

Ditto!

 

[DrJMW]

so you recommend this treatment even fo a 8 week cycle 250 mg test every 5 days?

Yes. Why does everyone think they are not suppressed if they use less than 1g a week? You would be suppressed using Test Gel.

 

[liquidmuscle]

even if you did 200mgs eow pct is still crucial

 

[genesis]

I know this thread is a bit old, but can anyone explain to me why some people so fervently oppose the use of HCG in pct?

I've heard that it actually supresses natural test production when used in pct?

Thanks

 

[Excidium28]

What would pct look like if you were usin HCG 500IU 2x a week during ur cycle.
I know DrJMW disagrees with HCG use while on cycle, but it just makes more sence on keeping ur nuts working the whole time than trying to bring them back from the dead?

What are the cons about using HCG during cycle?

 

[Jroxxx]

ok im going to do anavar 30mg a day for 8 weeks do i need to take and pct for this drug i didnt think that var would nock out my test levels !!?? i have 30 20mg novadex but that a est drug not good for test recovery ,any ideas thx shmie

 

[LVTitan]

What would pct look like if you were usin HCG 500IU 2x a week during ur cycle.
I know DrJMW disagrees with HCG use while on cycle, but it just makes more sence on keeping ur nuts working the whole time than trying to bring them back from the dead?

What are the cons about using HCG during cycle?

i have heard and read that long term use of HCG will build up a tolerance and it will no longer do what you want it to do, and could screw w/ur natural ability to produce also... whytake the chance, i save my hcg use for beginning of pct only.

 

[Dekaxx]

Dr J you still around haven't seen any post in a bit. Or does anyone know where DrJ hangs now?

There any other Docs on the boards that order blood testing?

 

[Singleton]

I did a short 4 week cycle using HCG starting at week 3.

The cycle was of primo and test, less than 600mg/wk total.

I used 200mcg eod and got 4 shots of hCG total, I think.

It was the easiest recovery and one of the best cycles when considering sides vs. gains.

pct was all herbal.

I really feel that using hCG mid-cycle was the best thing to do and I will always do it that way from now on.

 

[Excidium28]

I did a short 4 week cycle using HCG starting at week 3.

The cycle was of primo and test, less than 600mg/wk total.

I used 200mcg eod and got 4 shots of hCG total, I think.

It was the easiest recovery and one of the best cycles when considering sides vs. gains.

pct was all herbal.

I really feel that using hCG mid-cycle was the best thing to do and I will always do it that way from now on.

So ur cycle was 4 weeks primo at 600mg or ur post cycle was 4 weeks?

 

[Singleton]

Cycle was 4 weeks. hCG was ~8days, starting week 3, shots EOD.

I don't advocate being sloppy, but the hCG kept my balls fuller. I didn't crash or have much sides.

 

[bicepts101]

what if your balls dont shrink?....ive done 4 cycles and my balls dont shrink...atrophy slightly but thats it

 

[Jenetic]

what if your balls dont shrink?....ive done 4 cycles and my balls dont shrink...atrophy slightly but thats it

It's very difficult to judge testicular shrinkage based upon a visual observation. However, you are one of the lucky few. Running your HCG won't have any negative impact and will insure that your testicles are at full size and fucntioning properly. Technically, in your particular situation, I'd recommend a comparative analysis, including bloodwork, of PCT based upon HCG and SERMs versus SERMs only. At that point, decide what form of PCT works best for you.

Jenetic

 

[bicepts101]

It's very difficult to judge testicular shrinkage based upon a visual observation. However, you are one of the lucky few. Running your HCG won't have any negative impact and will insure that your testicles are at full size and fucntioning properly. Technically, in your particular situation, I'd recommend a comparative analysis, including bloodwork, of PCT based upon HCG and SERMs versus SERMs only. At that point, decide what form of PCT works best for you.

Jenetic

and the weiid thing is bro, the last cycle i was on for like 6 months bro...

 

[Jenetic]

and the weiid thing is bro, the last cycle i was on for like 6 months bro...

Lucky bastard. A word of advice, don't push your luck. Keep in mind, your testis atrophy naturally as you age. Although it's not gauranteed, you will more than likely require it in the future as nature takes its course. The good thing is that it isn't much of a problem for you and second, you are already prepared if and when it does occur.

Jenetic

 

[bicepts101]

Lucky bastard. A word of advice, don't push your luck. Keep in mind, your testis atrophy naturally as you age. Although it's not gauranteed, you will more than likely require it in the future as nature takes its course. The good thing is that it isn't much of a problem for you and second, you are already prepared if and when it does occur.

Jenetic

col bro thanks

 

[Excidium28]

Jenetic,

Would you recommend using Hcg at 250-500iu 2x week through out the cycle. OR run HCG for 2 weeks on the mittle of ur cycle at 1000iu 3x a week???

If you do this would you still do a standard PCT at the end of the cycle?

 

[R1 Psycho]

Lucky bastard. A word of advice, don't push your luck. Keep in mind, your testis atrophy naturally as you age. Although it's not gauranteed, you will more than likely require it in the future as nature takes its course. The good thing is that it isn't much of a problem for you and second, you are already prepared if and when it does occur.

Jenetic

Jenetic...got a question for you....and for the Doc if he is around......here goes.....posted this somewhere else already but really need someone to answer and help me out...

New to the board...have some quick questions.....
I am 30 yrs old, about 190 pounds, about 6 foot with roughly 12% BF
I am going to try some gear for the 1st time and was wondering what you guys think of my short stack......I have dome alot of reading and shit man! alot to learn...gets confusing so I will ask the questions I have to you guys....

got this coming tonight from a good friend...

10 ml bottle of Test Propionate
10 ml bottle of Trenbolone
50 tabs of winstrol (50mg's)
15000 IU's of HCG
100 tabs of Novaldex (50mg's)

take a 1ml shot of each every 3rd day
1 winstrol tab every day

go for around 6 weeks.....can get more when i need it.....once i run out...
PLease let me knoe what you think and how and when should take...plus want to run the pct correctly.......how much and when?
should I be taking the HCG during the cycle?
should I be adding anything to the PCT?
can you prescribe a better stack for me?...I can take this back if i want.....a good friend. I want to put on some good quality lean muscle....around 10 pounds and try to keep most of it.......I was going to go with deca and something else but was scared away from it causde of deca dick etc......

thanks man.....

 

[Excidium28]

Thats hardcore for the first cycle. How about just 700mg Primo EW and 50mg Var ED. at least 10lbs of quality muscle that you will be able to keep.

 

[R1 Psycho]

Thats hardcore for the first cycle. How about just 700mg Primo EW and 50mg Var ED. at least 10lbs of quality muscle that you will be able to keep.

What kind of pct would I run with that and how long to run that?
I know I'm asking alot but could you be a little detailed in laying this out for me? Thanks man......
Are there quite a few sides to this cycle you are suggesting?
If I were to go ahead with my previous cycle....should i expect alot of sides to that one?

Thanks in advance...

 

[Excidium28]

Standard PCT
Week 1-3 HCG 1000IU 3xW (total of 3000IU a week). Nolva 20mg ED, Clomid 50mg ED.
Week 3-6 Nolva 20mg ED, CLomid 50mg ED
Week 6-8 Clen

I think tren is over kill for the first cycle. For ur goals I think Primo and var would be awsome.

http://steroidsinfo101.com/primo.htm

 

[R1 Psycho]

Standard PCT
Week 1-3 HCG 1000IU 3xW (total of 3000IU a week). Nolva 20mg ED, Clomid 50mg ED.
Week 3-6 Nolva 20mg ED, CLomid 50mg ED
Week 6-8 Clen

I think tren is over kill for the first cycle. For ur goals I think Primo and var would be awsome.

http://steroidsinfo101.com/primo.htm

Excidium:
Hey thanks for your advice bro....I am goin g to look in to my source for some Primo....sounds wicked!! and low test problem at the end of my cycle is a big concern...sounds like i dont have to worry about that with primo. i feel like an idiot though cause i already took a stack shot tonight of tren/prop....and think i will maybe just try and sell the rest to a buddy cheap since its open....cant return it now....but will keep the winstrol pills for sure....mix that with primo. what do you think???....just the primo and win?

lata

 

[Excidium28]

I would post this in the discussion forum. List your stats, how long you been workin out etc.

 

[exidous]

im 3 weeks into my cycle of 500mgs/week of test e and i have no shrinkage, they roll, toss and hang like they always have. wondering if they will eventually atropy? no gyno or anything. got gains and mad strength too.

 

[5150guy]

deleted

deleted

 

[5150guy]

HPTA Facts--corrections

As athletes, we are most concerned with the "PT" part of the HPTA. "P" being the pituitary and "T" being the Testes. To review, our hormonal responses are based mainly on negative feedback. For example, supragenetic levels of Testosterone or any AAS will signal the pituitary to stop secreting LH and will signal the hypothalamus to stop secreting gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GRH). So, during an AAS cycle, we experience low, natural Testos levels, a reduction in testuclar mass, low LH, and low GRH. The goal of PCT (recovery) is to get the HPTA back to normal.

The correct name/acronym for gonadotropin-releasing hormone is actually GnRH

The most important aspect of recovery is getting testicular mass back to normal as quickly as possible. There is only one drug that will do this and do it quickly--HCG. HCG imitates LH (which is suppressed).

This not correct. HMG or Human Menopasual Gonadotrophin will increase testicle mass, and it will do it every bit and as good as HCG if not better. HMG contains LH (signal lydig cells to start T production in the testicles) and FSH (which will signal the sertioli cells to start sperm production). It is a known medical fact that using high doses of exogenous T and other AAS will shut down sperm production, so restarting sperm production will also help increase the size and volume of the testicles

Also if you happen to have connections in the world of reproductinve endocrinology, you can get rLH and rFSH to use for testicle rehab as well, and a combination of these recombinant gonadotrophins will do every bit as good as HCG. Granted these drugs are more expensive and not as readily avaiable as HCG, they will still increase the mass and/or volume of the male testicle

HCG acts independently of the HPTA suppression and independent of the meds from the AAS cycle. In this situation, the only side effect we need to worry about is the return of estrogen to normal levels (estrogen rebound). Since estrogen is already at very low levels (the athlete used an aromatase inhibitor during his AAS cycle), Nolvadex is sufficient to block the onrush. By the time the athlete is using nolvadex-only, his testes are up to their normal size. And the pituitary begins to release its own LH.

"HCG acts independently of the HPTA suppression..." Are you sure about this? Becuse the exogenous HCG is going to raise the level of total T in the body for a period of time, and the increase in total T due to exogenous HCG will keep the LH negative feedback loop active and this and will again shut off or keep shut off the body's natural production of LH until T levels in the body return to normal physiologic range and thus shut off the negative feeback loop


All the novaldex is going to do is to lock onto various estrogen receptors and block the more the potent estrogens such as E2 from attaching to the various estrogen receptors in the body. This is how Novaldex prevents and "treats" gynocomastia. However, Novaldex does not "block the on rush of of estrogen". Novalex does not influence aromatase activity and thus it does not affect the amount of estrogen produced in the body by the aromatase enzyme. On the other hand, an AI such as Aromasin, a Type 1 "aromatase inhibitor," which stops the activity of the aromatase enzyme forever would do more to block the "onrush" of estrogen from aromatase activity.

 

[chicagobuffedbod]

Re: HPTA Facts--corrections

On the other hand, an aromatase inhibitor such as Aromasin, a Type 1 "aromatase inhibitor," which stops the activity of the aromatase enzyme forever would do more to block the "onrush" of estrogen from aromatase activity.

What do you mean "forever?" Are you saying Aromasin is like Teslac and that it will permanently block out estrogen?

 

[5150guy]

Re: HPTA Facts--corrections

What do you mean "forever?" Are you saying Aromasin is like Teslac and that it will permanently block out estrogen?

Perhaps this information from AG guys will help clarify things:

The other class of medications I’m going to explain is Aromatase Inhibitors. Aromatase Inhibitors basically prevent the aromatase enzyme from doing its job. AIs are classified into two types: type I, also known as suicidal or noncompetitive inhibitors; and type II, known as competitive inhibitors. Aromasin and ATD are in the first category, while Arimidex and Letrozole are in the second. Both type I & II mimic substrates (essentially androgens), and can compete with it for access to the binding site on the actual enzyme (aromatase). After this initial binding, the next step is where things begin to differ for the two different types of AI’s. Once a noncompetitive inhibitor has bound, the enzyme initiates a sequence of what’s called hydroxylation, and hydroxylation produces an unbreakable covalent bond between the inhibitor and the enzyme protein. This is important because now, enzyme (aromatase) activity is permanently blocked; even if all of the unattached inhibitor is removed, and now, enzyme activity can only be restored by new enzyme synthesis. Type II AI’s or competitive inhibitors, on the other hand, reversibly bind to the active enzyme site, and one of two effects is had: no enzyme activity is triggered, or the enzyme is somehow triggered without effect. The type II inhibitor can then actually disassociate from the enzyme, eventually allowing renewed competition between the inhibitor and the substrate for binding to the site (estrogen synthesis).

Aromasin

Aromasin basically is an aromatase inactivator...It actually makes estrogen receptors useless in a sense, because it inhibits the aromatase enzyme from creating more estrogen. This is like having a wall socket but no radio to plug into it…kind of useless, right? Instead of just inhibiting production (as a Type-II anti-aromatase would do) it irreversibly cuts off estrogen production from the enzyme it attaches to. Aromasin can also cause androgenic sides, so it’s not ideal for women, however. It’s not particularly harsh on cholesterol, and can be effectively used with Nolvadex. I’ve seen studies indicating that it reduces estrogen in your body by about 80%, possibly making it too strong, for maximum gains and staying healthy on a long (12 weeks or more) cycle. Aromasin, at 20mgs/day, will raise your testosterone levels by about 60%, and will even help out your free to bound testosterone ratio by lowering your body’s levels of Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (sex hormone binding globulin ), by roughly 20% (The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism Vol. 88, No. 12 5951-5956)…It’s perfect for use in PCT - post cycle therapy - , for many other reasons (it interacts more favorably with Nolvadex than other AIs). But it’s not 100% what we want during a cycle…for this reason, I give it a strong…

Final Grade: B+
Buy research Aromasin

 

[T-mo]

dude u dont need any pct for the var....you will be fine

 

[bodyw277]

Proviron works well for me but I have taken up to 120 mg of Nolvadex and I can not feel a thing my nipples still itch but Proviron works really well whats ur oprinion on this

 

[rage22]

dude u dont need any pct for the var....you will be fine

False... Be safe, do a pct. I have been, and m now shut down after 40mg Ed for only 4 short weeks. I messed up and did not do a proper pct and here I'm working w an endo to get back. Test levels 250-270 range. Was 170 the week I came off. Jus saying it has a negative effect on test production.

Good luck

 

[Nelson Montana]

False... Be safe, do a pct. I have been, and m now shut down after 40mg Ed for only 4 short weeks. I messed up and did not do a proper pct and here I'm working w an endo to get back. Test levels 250-270 range. Was 170 the week I came off. Jus saying it has a negative effect on test production.

Good luck

Why bump a 7 year old thread? These people are long gone. The only value here is to show how wrong the board experts at the time were about things.