How long do nations last when money becomes their god?

[WODIN]

Depends...

Rome and the Ottoman Empire are your two best examples.

 

[Testosterone boy]

My history knowledge never advanced beyond some core courses. I know some of you guys are history buffs.

What is the precedence here?

 

[WODIN]

As long as a capitalist structer doesn't fuck around with the currency system then it thrives. You begin operating by fiat then it eventually burns out.

 

[SofaGeorge]

Capitalist societies tend to thrive.

 

[theoak01]

I agree with Wodin or whatever your name is now. Rome is a prime example ,pocessions and currency were there downfall

 

[Tiervexx]

Capitalist societies tend to thrive.

 

[Testosterone boy]

capitalism + ethics = perfection


capitalism - ethics = nation on medication


This lil lesson cost $180.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

The BEST example is not Rome. The best example is Spain. They grew to be the world's leading empire by literally robbing South and centrial America of all its gold and silver.

Eventually, resources got so plentiful that hyper inflation destroyed them and they took a backseat to England as the global power.

Because they were able to steal wealth rather than build it, their collapse was quick and hard. They never really recovered. Who is Spain today, on the world economic scene? A parallel would be Saudi Arabia today. They have gotten fat off of something in the ground they happen to live on. Yet they have not built an industrial infrastructure to benefit the citizenry, and unemployment hovers at 30%.

The next best example is this country. We are a younger country than most European nations, but we have had the same form of government longer than they have. We were a representative democracy when they were still monarchies to an extent. And we still are.

We are still learning how to run an economy. The lessons are there. This will be really cursory:

At our founding we were agrarian, like everyone else, but the Industrial Revolution happened here on a grander scale than anywhere else. As we became industrialized, there was little to no government regualtion. A few people beceame really rich. Carnegie sold out to JP Morgan for half a billion dollars 100 years ago. And Rockefeller had amassed something like 890 million dollars in 1900. In today's dollars, he'd be far beyond Bill Gates.

There also were lots of problems...many were corrcted by unions and smart legisaltion. The Great Depression effectively made the government the employer of last resort, and created social programs that are still a drag on our national wealth today. World War 2 ended the Depression and our victory ushered in a tremdous period of growth, hastened by tehcnological advance.

Government interference was not yet done. In the 1960's, the first public sector unions were created (cops, teachers, and other groups that are continually fucked up but never get fixed are often in public sector unions.) Even FDR thought these too liberal.

These also became massive inefficiencies on our system. The next chapter of American economic development will be either:

elimination/repeal of social programs and public sector unions

OR

implosion.


The lesson: the best economic models are free markets, with mild government involvement and limited taxation. No government involvement and you get a monstrously productive society rushing headlong into oligarchy, where production plummets. Too much invovlement and you get a government-dependent welfare state.

That'll be $175.

 

[Testosterone boy]

The BEST example is not Rome. The best example is Spain. They grew to be the world's leading empire by literally robbing South and centrial America of all its gold and silver.

Eventually, resources got so plentiful that hyper inflation destroyed them and they took a backseat to England as the global power.

Because they were able to steal wealth rather than build it, their collapse was quick and hard. They never really recovered. Who is Spain today, on the world economic scene? A parallel would be Saudi Arabia today. They have gotten fat off of something in the ground they happen to live on. Yet they have not built an industrial infrastructure to benefit the citizenry, and unemployment hovers at 30%.

The next best example is this country. We are a younger country than most European nations, but we have had the same form of government longer than they have. We were a representative democracy when they were still monarchies to an extent. And we still are.

We are still learning how to run an economy. The lessons are there. This will be really cursory:

At our founding we were agrarian, like everyone else, but the Industrial Revolution happened here on a grander scale than anywhere else. As we became industrialized, there was little to no government regualtion. A few people beceame really rich. Carnegie sold out to JP Morgan for half a billion dollars 100 years ago. And Rockefeller had amassed something like 890 million dollars in 1900. In today's dollars, he'd be far beyond Bill Gates.

There also were lots of problems...many were corrcted by unions and smart legisaltion. The Great Depression effectively made the government the employer of last resort, and created social programs that are still a drag on our national wealth today. World War 2 ended the Depression and our victory ushered in a tremdous period of growth, hastened by tehcnological advance.

Government interference was not yet done. In the 1960's, the first public sector unions were created (cops, teachers, and other groups that are continually fucked up but never get fixed are often in public sector unions.) Even FDR thought these too liberal.

These also became massive inefficiencies on our system. The next chapter of American economic development will be either:

elimination/repeal of social programs and public sector unions

OR

implosion.


The lesson: the best economic models are free markets, with mild government involvement and limited taxation. No government involvement and you get a monstrously productive society rushing headlong into oligarchy, where production plummets. Too much invovlement and you get a government-dependent welfare state.

That'll be $175.

OK..........I'm up by $5. Keep the change bro.

 

[milo hobgoblin]

Rome???!!

Christian rulers and unchecked immigration brought the fall of Rome...

pretty it up any way you want but thats what killed em in the end.

 

[Testosterone boy]

Re: Rome???!!

Christian rulers and unchecked immigration brought the fall of Rome...

pretty it up any way you want but thats what killed em in the end.

Interesting perspective....I had always heard they grew fat and lazy and Toms preferred Pat over Patty or something like that.

How did Christian rulers and immigration do it?

Christian rulers.......post Constantine......... are almost a norm I believe.

 

[Lao Tzu]

My history knowledge never advanced beyond some core courses. I know some of you guys are history buffs.

What is the precedence here?

define 'money being their god'. Do you mean when self gratification becomes the main agenda of the individuals & the nation as opposed to religious worship, community mentalities or national service?

i'd assume as long as we keep pumping out the technology we will thrive. but i could be wrong. I tend to think that an attempt to always keep up with the jones's would be good for the economy because people will get better educations and spend more money.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Re: Re: Rome???!!

Interesting perspective....I had always heard they grew fat and lazy and Toms preferred Pat over Patty or something like that.

the fact taht the army was always infighting to have their emperor brought to power helped destroy them. too many people were lost to civil war to fight the barbarians.

 

[casavant]

Re: Re: How long do nations last when money becomes their god?

I tend to think that an attempt to always keep up with the jones's

What if we don't know any Jones's?

Or what if a terrorist cell went around exterminating everyone of Jones lineage, so nobody would know any Jones's and thus wouldn't feel the need to keep up with them, thereby bringing about the collapse of our economy?

That's a scary thought.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Re: Re: Re: How long do nations last when money becomes their god?

What if we don't know any Jones's?

Or what if a terrorist cell went around exterminating everyone of Jones lineage, so nobody would know any Jones's and thus wouldn't feel the need to keep up with them, thereby bringing about the collapse of our economy?

That's a scary thought.

then we can all keep up with the AAPs.

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Re: Re: Re: Rome???!!

the fact taht the army was always infighting to have their emperor brought to power helped destroy them. too many people were lost to civil war to fight the barbarians.

Constantine stopped a lot of this when he implemented Christianity AKA the "1000 year buttfuck" for Europe.

 

[milo hobgoblin]

Yup

When the Christians took over the EXPANDED the games to keep the people happy nearly bankrupting Rome..

To top it off the had massive influxes of immigrants (aka Barbarians LOL) tearing their economy apart.... it was only a matter of time before their culture lost its identity and the whole society collapsed.

LOL Rome would probably still be around if they had a better border patrol.

 

[Testosterone boy]

The BEST example is not Rome. The best example is Spain. They grew to be the world's leading empire by literally robbing South and centrial America of all its gold and silver.

Eventually, resources got so plentiful that hyper inflation destroyed them and they took a backseat to England as the global power.

Because they were able to steal wealth rather than build it, their collapse was quick and hard. They never really recovered. Who is Spain today, on the world economic scene? A parallel would be Saudi Arabia today. They have gotten fat off of something in the ground they happen to live on. Yet they have not built an industrial infrastructure to benefit the citizenry, and unemployment hovers at 30%.

The next best example is this country. We are a younger country than most European nations, but we have had the same form of government longer than they have. We were a representative democracy when they were still monarchies to an extent. And we still are.

We are still learning how to run an economy. The lessons are there. This will be really cursory:

At our founding we were agrarian, like everyone else, but the Industrial Revolution happened here on a grander scale than anywhere else. As we became industrialized, there was little to no government regualtion. A few people beceame really rich. Carnegie sold out to JP Morgan for half a billion dollars 100 years ago. And Rockefeller had amassed something like 890 million dollars in 1900. In today's dollars, he'd be far beyond Bill Gates.

There also were lots of problems...many were corrcted by unions and smart legisaltion. The Great Depression effectively made the government the employer of last resort, and created social programs that are still a drag on our national wealth today. World War 2 ended the Depression and our victory ushered in a tremdous period of growth, hastened by tehcnological advance.

Government interference was not yet done. In the 1960's, the first public sector unions were created (cops, teachers, and other groups that are continually fucked up but never get fixed are often in public sector unions.) Even FDR thought these too liberal.

These also became massive inefficiencies on our system. The next chapter of American economic development will be either:

elimination/repeal of social programs and public sector unions

OR

implosion.


The lesson: the best economic models are free markets, with mild government involvement and limited taxation. No government involvement and you get a monstrously productive society rushing headlong into oligarchy, where production plummets. Too much invovlement and you get a government-dependent welfare state.

That'll be $175.

True about the Spaniards but I always found the hero status of Sir Francis Drake interesting. Nothing but a highly successful pirate with perfect timing. The west coast of South America had no naval protection when he showed up.

I am also sure the Spaniards publicized justification for their robberies. Seems that all bloodthirsty civilizations, controlled by the power of gold, do so.

 

[Testosterone boy]

Re: Re: How long do nations last when money becomes their god?

define 'money being their god'. Do you mean when self gratification becomes the main agenda of the individuals & the nation as opposed to religious worship, community mentalities or national service?

i'd assume as long as we keep pumping out the technology we will thrive. but i could be wrong. I tend to think that an attempt to always keep up with the jones's would be good for the economy because people will get better educations and spend more money.

I wanted to respond to this inquiry but I tire of pointing at our inadequacies and have found it to be utterly futile.

Besides, a complete answer would require several weeks or so.


I don't think that money is our God but I do believe it is the God or religion of our current administration. With them steering the ship, they have tremendous influence.

 

[Jacob Creutzfeldt]

If I am understanding some of these posts correctly: The Spanish empire essentially created mass inflation by living on ecconomy based on plunder and theivery of natural resources. Capitalism is being defined as any ecconomic system that uses faith in currency as the tool of trade an not barter.

Is this essentially what happens in many depressed urban areas in modern times? A deportation of wealth without the mechanism to create additional wealth?