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How do emulators work?
- Thread starter samoth
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javaguru
Banned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulatorsamoth said:Like, the things they use to emulate old NES games. How do they work? And why are they not able to copy/emulate SNES games? Is this a new technology with tons of potential, or something limited and old?
Snes cames have been emulated for sure, I've played them on my buddies X-box
jh1 said:
Yes, I'm sure. Emulators are only at the point of working for old NES and Sega games. I wasn't sure if the 16-bit systems were beyond the reach, or what have you.
I was just wondering how one went from a chip in a plastic game cartridge to an emulated program playable on a computer.
http://www.everyvideogame.com/
I remember how popular the NES was back in grade school. It's amazing how far we've come... and how much I hate the proliferation of FPS's and graphic/movie-oriented "RPG's". "OMG, look at how well they animated that cop's head exploding after being shot with an AK-47!" Games totally suck nowadays.
I remember how popular the NES was back in grade school. It's amazing how far we've come... and how much I hate the proliferation of FPS's and graphic/movie-oriented "RPG's". "OMG, look at how well they animated that cop's head exploding after being shot with an AK-47!" Games totally suck nowadays.
what drugs are you on Samoth?
I've played N64 games and Snes games on people's emulators... ....
I've played N64 games and Snes games on people's emulators... ....
jh1
New member
samoth said:Yes, I'm sure. Emulators are only at the point of working for old NES and Sega games. I wasn't sure if the 16-bit systems were beyond the reach, or what have you.
I was just wondering how one went from a chip in a plastic game cartridge to an emulated program playable on a computer.
Nigga You Crazy.
SNES Emulator, first one that comes up on Google Search:
http://www.zsnes.com/
The bit level of the OS means nothing to emulation. 64bit modern day OS systems can be emulated and are. I am emulating several - including 64bit vista, OSX, etc...
VMWare is a popular choice for doing so, there are others. Including ones to emulate windows and linux on old mainframe hardware to extend the life of the beasts...
Purpose built interfaces are made to scam the code off the old cartridges, or were. Now all the code is almost freely available on the itubes so nobody bothers to build the purose built hardware - but in reality almost everything you need is in the system already. The physical and electrical interface for the cartridge just gets pinned out to a serial or other interface on a computer and you dump the contents and create a standardized file format from it.
Where'd you get the silly idea that SNES wasn't ownable... ??
mrplunkey
New member
Point well made. About 10-15 years ago, game companies began focusing on eye candy and less on overall gameplay. Its easier to hire programmers to do dynamic lighting and exploding effects on hopped-up specialized video chips than it is for creative people to crank-out new and exciting content.samoth said:http://www.everyvideogame.com/
I remember how popular the NES was back in grade school. It's amazing how far we've come... and how much I hate the proliferation of FPS's and graphic/movie-oriented "RPG's". "OMG, look at how well they animated that cop's head exploding after being shot with an AK-47!" Games totally suck nowadays.
jh1 said:
Maybe I'm talking about the ability to be emulated into Flash or something. Remember, I don't know much computer mugga wugga, so I'm just questioning what everyone else is saying over on another site.
I know I can buy/rent/steal something that copies games... but I'm talking about a site like I posted, where the games are emulated in an on-screen Flash (or whatever) format.
jh1
New member
samoth said:Maybe I'm talking about the ability to be emulated into Flash or something. Remember, I don't know much computer mugga wugga, so I'm just questioning what everyone else is saying over on another site.
I know I can buy/rent/steal something that copies games... but I'm talking about a site like I posted, where the games are emulated in an on-screen Flash (or whatever) format.
Ah... emulated in flash... no idea how that translation occurs.
You can emulate on you computer, maybe not as easily as flash but with an install...
jh1 said:
Yeah, I don't mean downloading or installing anything... I'm talking about simply going to a site that has 1,000 emulated SNES games, clicking a link, and then playing it. Apparently, they say that technology isn't at the point of emulating SNES games in this manner.
I know there's copywrite issues, which some sites "get around" and stuff, but they all seem to say the same thing about emulating 16-bit games. Maybe it's the Flash thing.
jh1
New member
samoth said:There's not a single game on that site. I think I'm referring to emulating in a different way.
???
Most of the sites that make the actuall emulator do not distribute the games themselves.
Remember the games are copyrighted material and are illegal to distribute. So you have to go more underground to get the games unless they are declared freeware by the owner of the copyright first.
The crown jewel of getting slapped with a infringement suit would be not only to distribute the code but a way to use it... that'd be just stupid.
jh1
New member
jh1
New member
jh1
New member
samoth said:Those aren't the original games, broly. They're not even close.
Try to actually follow up on your genius Google links...
Maybe not.
Here is the thing. As I said. ROMs are copyrighted material. You are going to have to go more underground to find all the original ROMs.
Any torrent will have them all.
See this site:
http://www.coolrom.com/roms/snes/
Emulators can be freely distributed because it's not infringement to emulate.
jh1 said:
So what are the differences between, like, downloading programs that can copy the games and programs that just run them (the exact game) on a web site? I'm not so much looking for a certain game or anything, I was just curious why there are sites with thousands of NES/Sega games, but they state that emulator technology isn't at the level needed to put up SNES games.
You can find exact games of the Mario games, Dragon Warriors, etc. but no one has Super Mario or FF II (using examples I'm familiar with). It must be the way it's hosted or whatever it is that Flash/Java does.
jh1 said:
I don't know what a ROM is. I'm talking about the site I used as an example. Direct me to a site, www.snesgame.com/finalfantasy3. Thanks. I'm NOT talking about downloading quasi-legal programs to do the stuff... I'm talking about clicking a link and playing it directly. Like this:
http://www.everyvideogame.com/play-nes-Contra_(U).htm
jh1
New member
You're looking for an easy link to be able to play any game...
That requires a Java or Flash Emulator with all the games ready to go. Not sure if that is out there or not.
But the fact is - you can just download and install a SNES emulator and run the ROMs which is the game code from teh cartridge on your computer.
Not as conveinent, but obviously less limitations. SNES can / is emulated.
That requires a Java or Flash Emulator with all the games ready to go. Not sure if that is out there or not.
But the fact is - you can just download and install a SNES emulator and run the ROMs which is the game code from teh cartridge on your computer.
Not as conveinent, but obviously less limitations. SNES can / is emulated.
crazyjoe
New member
I have two NES systems. One is still in the original box, and the other I don't have a box for. I also have about 30 games. I plan to sell them around christmas on ebay. They sold for crazy amounts last year around the holidays.samoth said:http://www.everyvideogame.com/
I remember how popular the NES was back in grade school. It's amazing how far we've come... and how much I hate the proliferation of FPS's and graphic/movie-oriented "RPG's". "OMG, look at how well they animated that cop's head exploding after being shot with an AK-47!" Games totally suck nowadays.
jh1
New member
samoth said:THAT'S what I was wondering. Why wouldn't this technology be at the level of reproducing a 16-bit game?
Not sure, I mean Java / Flash have limitations... its meant to be highly transportable, but possibly the screen refresh rates aren't there...
Or maybe nobody wants to put the time in to build it.... who knows... remember these peeps aren't making money by building this, they are just doing it as a project.
Why not just download an installable emulator?
crazyjoe said:
I sold my NES and SNES, with mint boxes (I always keep stuff in primo condition, even the boxes, lol) and a few games like the Final Fantasys, Dragon Warriors, Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, etc. all with mint boxes, for around $350 last year. The systems -- and games for that matter -- aren't hard to find, they're just hard to find MIB, you know? I bet I coulda got a lot more if I didn't sell them to a local friend who owns a comic/card/vid shop in my hometown.
crazyjoe
New member
I just asked people I knew if they still had them, and if I could have them or purchase them. They had no clue, and just gave the shit to me hehehe!samoth said:I sold my NES and SNES, with mint boxes (I always keep stuff in primo condition, even the boxes, lol) and a few games like the Final Fantasys, Dragon Warriors, Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, etc. all with mint boxes, for around $350 last year. The systems -- and games for that matter -- aren't hard to find, they're just hard to find MIB, you know? I bet I coulda got a lot more if I didn't sell them to a local friend who owns a comic/card/vid shop in my hometown.
jh1 said:
Well, I honestly don't want the games or anything. I just thought the site with all the old NES games was really interesting, and was curious why it couldn't be done with newer-yet-old system games like SNES or the 16-bit Genesis system.
Since the emulating thingies are out there, it must be the Flash/Java restrictions that make them not doable or really difficult and not worth the $0 one would get from devoting a year of coding.
I don't know much about Flash/Java, so I guess I just kind of assumed it was capale of handeling archaic 16-bit video games with total ease. Then again, I don't remember any Flash or Java games being at the level of sophistication of many of the SNES games, now that I think about it, notwithstanding the whole emulation process.
samoth said:Like, the things they use to emulate old NES games. How do they work? And why are they not able to copy/emulate SNES games? Is this a new technology with tons of potential, or something limited and old?
They make different emulators for different systems. Nester is a good one for NES, while ZSNES is good for SNES, MAME32 for arcades, etc.
Just google it and enter old school gaming euphoria. Hook up a PS2 controller through a USB adapter and it's a tough combo to beat for the PC.
crazyjoe
New member
Yep, I got it from my buddy who acquired about 10 systems from people the same way. There is even cleaning kits that you can buy online that I have used, and they actually work too. All 30 of those games previously mentioned did not work when I got them. Over time the little metal contacts on the game get shitty and the system does not read them. I first tried some electronic contact cleaner on them, and that did not make a difference. Then I got one of those cleaning kits and they work like new.samoth said:That's a good idea, actually. Lots of people don't realize the money that some of these old games can pull. Especially the old RPGs. I think FFII and III are worth more now than when they were released for $70 new, as long as they are NMIB.
jh1 said:
Did you know that the entire soundtrack for Castlevania IV on SNES is only about 45KB's? Talk about milking a system's capabilities for all they're worth. That system was a bit ahead of its time.
crazyjoe said:
Another big problem with old RPGs and Adventure games was the save battery dying. This never happened to any of mine, but it seems to be a big problem when purchasing old games. Last I heard, they didn't have a way to fix it or replace the battery, but I wouldn't think it would be that hard.
crazyjoe
New member
You can buy new "guts" for the system.samoth said:Another big problem with old RPGs and Adventure games was the save battery dying. This never happened to any of mine, but it seems to be a big problem when purchasing old games. Last I heard, they didn't have a way to fix it or replace the battery, but I wouldn't think it would be that hard.
crazyjoe said:
Do you use a controller at all or just mouse and keyboard? If there is an option for gamepad support in the game then you can use a PS2 controller plugged into one of these-
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-PS-PS2-To-P...ryZ41059QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Better than using a shitty PC gamepad. You could probably get one for an Xbox360 controller too, they probably sell them at Best Buy.
samoth said:Ah, that makes sense. I don't really know anything about emulators. It makes sense that they're different for different systems.
And I've never owned a Playstation. Last system I bought was SNES way back in the day, saving up my allowance.
That's pretty much where good gaming ended. Although Mario 64 did raise the bar for 3d gaming, and is yet to be beaten. Zelda 64 was also good, and is considered by many enthusiasts to be the "perfect" game.
samoth said:Another big problem with old RPGs and Adventure games was the save battery dying. This never happened to any of mine, but it seems to be a big problem when purchasing old games. Last I heard, they didn't have a way to fix it or replace the battery, but I wouldn't think it would be that hard.
With emulators you can save wherever you want in the game, right to your pc's harddrive. It's a shame that emulated ROMs are technically illegal; especially when it's pretty much the only way people can be able to play all these classic games nowadays because, like you said, the cartridge batteries are long burnt out.
. The batteries still worked great. But I hear their shelf life was only supposed to be 10 years, so it would only be a matter of time.GoldenDelicious
New member
i actually own a bunch of full sized arcade machines running MAME and used ot be nito the emu scene, so i may be able to answer your question, samote 
the reason is likely to be simply - resources.
emulation isnt a terriby efficient process - i remember having to spend extra to get a 1000mhz processor with at least 256megs memory in order to run shitty arcade games that originally ran on a 2mhz processor with under a meg of memory
chances are that flash emulation over the web simply isnt viable in terms of processing power and memory, plus or minus the limitation of having really shitty bandwidth between your computer and the sites computer in the case of shared processing when it comes down to emulating 16bit games. or it could be as simple as most flash programs not being written to have 100 meg of memory dedicated to doing something or other.
hope that shed some light
the reason is likely to be simply - resources.
emulation isnt a terriby efficient process - i remember having to spend extra to get a 1000mhz processor with at least 256megs memory in order to run shitty arcade games that originally ran on a 2mhz processor with under a meg of memory
chances are that flash emulation over the web simply isnt viable in terms of processing power and memory, plus or minus the limitation of having really shitty bandwidth between your computer and the sites computer in the case of shared processing when it comes down to emulating 16bit games. or it could be as simple as most flash programs not being written to have 100 meg of memory dedicated to doing something or other.
hope that shed some light
GoldenDelicious said:i actually own a bunch of full sized arcade machines running MAME and used ot be nito the emu scene, so i may be able to answer your question, samote
the reason is likely to be simply - resources.
emulation isnt a terriby efficient process - i remember having to spend extra to get a 1000mhz processor with at least 256megs memory in order to run shitty arcade games that originally ran on a 2mhz processor with under a meg of memory
chances are that flash emulation over the web simply isnt viable in terms of processing power and memory, plus or minus the limitation of having really shitty bandwidth between your computer and the sites computer in the case of shared processing when it comes down to emulating 16bit games. or it could be as simple as most flash programs not being written to have 100 meg of memory dedicated to doing something or other.
hope that shed some light
That's an excellent post that pretty much answers my question. Thanks!
I think I have problems wording things so people don't really understand my questions, lol. I really need to learn more computer stuff.
javaguru
Banned
Speaking as a developer...that would have to be some ENORMOUS server load.....overhead of an OS plus emulation for every connection...GoldenDelicious said:i actually own a bunch of full sized arcade machines running MAME and used ot be nito the emu scene, so i may be able to answer your question, samote
the reason is likely to be simply - resources.
emulation isnt a terriby efficient process - i remember having to spend extra to get a 1000mhz processor with at least 256megs memory in order to run shitty arcade games that originally ran on a 2mhz processor with under a meg of memory
chances are that flash emulation over the web simply isnt viable in terms of processing power and memory, plus or minus the limitation of having really shitty bandwidth between your computer and the sites computer in the case of shared processing when it comes down to emulating 16bit games. or it could be as simple as most flash programs not being written to have 100 meg of memory dedicated to doing something or other.
hope that shed some light
javaguru said:Speaking as a developer...that would have to be some ENORMOUS server load.....overhead of an OS plus emulation for every connection...
We'll still see it sometime in the future though.
jh1
New member
javaguru said:Speaking as a developer...that would have to be some ENORMOUS server load.....overhead of an OS plus emulation for every connection...
Nah Nah Nha...
Emulation on controlled platforms has come a HUGE way...
You ever use VmWare?
Their ESX server on an uber server is one of the most awe inspiring peices of software I have seen in along time.
IBM is doing the same thing on mainframes they are acheiving this with as little as 5% overhead.
jh1
New member
javaguru said:I don't doubt it's improved dramatically. However,5% still seems substantial. I've tweaked algorithims for the auto industry to improve processing efficiency by .05%. They're sticklers......
5% is a small price to pay to take many many many systems that will sit at 20% average load and dump them on a shared virtual server utilizing 90% median of the hardware capacity.
Enormously efficient comparivtively.
With mainframe hardware - fuck that shit was useless - the companies *ONLY* held onto it because it was so expensive when they bought it that in most cases they had not even fully amortized the fucking thing. So basically it is either a huge clunk of useless hardware *OR* load up a virutalization system on it and run windows, linux, etc... utlizing 85% of the systems resources for real activities and 5% for virtualization overhead.
5% is realitive, I suppose.
hanselthecaretaker said:
Okay, now that I'm getting a bit more understanding, what are the possibilities for this kind of thing advancing in the future? Will it ever come to the point that online Flash/whatever emulators will be able to keep up with the most recent video game platforms (PS3, etc)? I mean, is this a potential worry for video game system developers like Sony?
What kind of server load differnce are we talking when comparing a site offering, say, 1,000 old NES 8-bit games in Flash format to one offering 1,000 SNES or other 16-bit games in a Flash-like format?
jh1
New member
samoth said:Okay, now that I'm getting a bit more understanding, what are the possibilities for this kind of thing advancing in the future? Will it ever come to the point that online Flash/whatever emulators will be able to keep up with the most recent video game platforms (PS3, etc)? I mean, is this a potential worry for video game system developers like Sony?
What kind of server load differnce are we talking when comparing a site offering, say, 1,000 old NES 8-bit games in Flash format to one offering 1,000 SNES or other 16-bit games in a Flash-like format?
The problem you're going to have with modern day video games utilizing DirectX technology is the FPS rate required for realistic play can be delivered by light weight apps (Flash / Java) at the resolutions required over the web, etc...
Too much data...
jh1
New member
samoth said:Is there the potential to develop, say, Flash++, that could handle such a thing and make it a possibility? Or does that kind of thing jsut fall under a different category or something?
it's possible, say in 10 years that you will be able to deliver todays games that way. But you won't be able to deliver the best games of that day in the same fashion... because those games will obviously have advanced in the amount of data they have to deliver in real time for the experience....
GoldenDelicious
New member
yep i agree - which is why theyve probably only ported simple stuff onto existing platforms that are going to minimise that ie flashjavaguru said:Speaking as a developer...that would have to be some ENORMOUS server load.....overhead of an OS plus emulation for every connection...
the most recent video games systems usually lean on their hardware heavily, so the answer is that emulation is always going to lag by several generationssamoth said:
there are different ways to write programs. you can either write them really efficiently (which is hard, takes time and lots of skill) OR you can write them sloppily and just chew up more system resources. because of the rush to get games onto the market, lots of games are written like crap, and so the bottleneck for truly stunning games ends up being that the hardware cant do any more than it is.
so unless you have processing power and memory coming out of your arse, its not going to happen.
besides, new playstations/xboxes are made so taht you can play old games on them. wheres teh incentive? why would a programmer spend months emulating something that you can just dump into your new xbox and play anyway? much of the incentive for emulating old games was because they were going to be lost forever. that doesnt hold true for newer stuff
as far as i understand, resource needs would go up exponentially. so, um...lots lolsamoth said:
samoth said:Okay, now that I'm getting a bit more understanding, what are the possibilities for this kind of thing advancing in the future? Will it ever come to the point that online Flash/whatever emulators will be able to keep up with the most recent video game platforms (PS3, etc)? I mean, is this a potential worry for video game system developers like Sony?
What kind of server load differnce are we talking when comparing a site offering, say, 1,000 old NES 8-bit games in Flash format to one offering 1,000 SNES or other 16-bit games in a Flash-like format?
It's really interesting to see how far technology is advancing, and what possibilities lie ahead. Who knows, by the time Flash is able to emulate PS3 software, there might not even be a such concept as playing a game console on a tv screen. Could be something completely different, like a form of virtual reality. Eventually though I'd say that these hardware companies will come up with cheaper alternatives to producing game consoles, since all lose a lot of money on any hardware that pushes the tech envelope for roughly half its life cycle. Hell, the original Xbox system never made MS money, that's why they dumped it so early. It still had a lot of potential, but no money to be made on it, and they wanted to be first in the next gen race with the 360. If they didn't make it up on software profits, gaming companies would be screwed.
Well, maybe only Nintendo. MS and Sony have plenty of other divisions to keep them afloat.
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