Holy shit...did anyone see Jeff Hardy jump off that ladder?!?!?!

[Burning_Inside]

Latimer what you say is about 3/4 true, but you still seem to really believe that just because someone isn't in a strong popular light or doesn't do a lot of mic work, that they have no charisma and can't talk on the mic at all. These spots are given to the wrestlers by the writers. Very little input goes into character development backstage from very few wrestlers. it's all writers, the writers have the control, the wrestlers are the puppets. Yeah, the wrestlers do have control over the nuances of their character, but what good are the little quirks or whatever that make the character if the character is itself opressed? Superstars in wrestling are pre packaged. Ever see the Rock try cutting a promo back when he was Rocky Maivia? He sucked balls. He had no skill and people hated him, and not even in a good way,t hey just didn't like him cause he flat out sucked. But the WWF made him into a star. Why? Who knows. Probably the best lookin guy they had at the time who was in decent shape, and probably sucked off McMahon a few times. ANYONE in the biz can be a success. It's all marketing. Friggin' Funaki could be the next best thing since sliced shit if they A: make a remarkable storyline around him, and B: just hype him constantly. Look how bad some cars, bands, or whatever sort of products suck and are over rated and have no talent, yet people eat it up, and it's all due to marketing. WWF markets superstars in the same fashion.

 

[Latimer]

I totally see where you are coming from. I agree with what you're saying to an extent. I'm just saying that they have to give the writers something to work with.

You should read The Rock's book sometime. He even said how much he sucked early in his career and how hard he worked at improving and even mentioned is punch and promos specifically. I'm not the biggest fan of The Rock. He's not even in my top 5 of favorites, so I'm not biased towards him. I just used him as an example since you cited him in your post. Although the WWF's marketing machine is a stong one, they can only carry the wrestlers so far. The talent has to have "it" before they can really reach the top level of the business and more importantly, stay there.

Jeff's mic skills are getting better. He was much worse when looking back to '97. Matt has better mic skills than Jeff, and Matt's are weak as it is. All I'm saying is that Jeff has to improve in other areas before he is ready for main event push. His size among other things are holding him back. That's just my opinion of course.

"Latimer what you say is about 3/4 true, but you still seem to really believe that just because someone isn't in a strong popular light or doesn't do a lot of mic work, that they have no charisma and can't talk on the mic at all."

No I don't believe that one bit. I've seen Jeff Hardy on the mic and cutting promos many times throughout his career. They just tried to give him more time not too long ago with that whole Trish angle. He dropped the ball many times and has continually proven that his skills on the mic are lacking. Neither him or Matt are very dynamic speakers. I do believe that he is lacking in charisma and that high-risk, quasi-lucha-libre style of his, is what makes him a fan favorite. This is especially true in the hardcore circle of fans (which i am a fan of myself). I love watching Jeff Hardy wrestle and I'm a big fan of his and I agree with you about his testicular fortitude. The guy has watermelons, no doubt about it.

It's easier than it's ever been, in the WWF, to approach the writers with ideas, or even approach the vets (like Trip and Taker) to discuss them with the writers. I guess the point I'm making, is that, the wrestlers have to prove by performance that they deserve a push. After that you have to factor in the amount of talent they now have, especially after the WCW acquistion, and if some other wrestlers deserve it more. Plus they have to demonstrate that they can carry torch at that level and for a long time to come.

 

[Latimer]

I can understand what you're saying about The Rock. He's boring the hell out of me with his same old routine. The problem is, he's already established as a main eventer, and all the marks going ape shit over the elbow and brow week in and week out, will keep him at that level for awhile to come.


peace

 

[Darksong2k1]

The Haardy Boyz have no charisma, wrestling ability doesn't determine how far you will go in that business, mic skills, look, gimmic, etc. do

Did you ever see the Hardyz as 2-XTreme?

 

[Freak Show]

There was a time when Edge and Christian were about as poor on the mic as the Hardy's. Now look at em. They're friggin hilarious and they can hold their own verbally. IMO, they're more popular than the Hardy's because of it. I don't know if its the writers pushin em or what, but they have come a long way. If given enough time and attention, I think the Hardy's can overcome their lack of mic skills. No one really starts out with mic skills. Look at Undertaker, Goldberg, and Scott Steiner. In their early careers, they(the writers) had them practically silent so they could perfect their mic skills. Look at em now. Even Goldberg can cut a good promo. God, I wish he would come back.

 

[AAP]

The Hardy's are both very very good. But sometimes, the skill of your mouth is just as important as the skill in the ring. In the early days, the Undertaker never spoke a word, instead, his ring prescence and gimmick got him across, those days are long gone. At the most, the Hardy's will be mid card Euro/Intercont. champs. But never rise to the top tier. Unfortunately that is the way it is. The Rock is very very limited in his wrestling ability, as Austin is also. You can count the number of offensive moves of both on one hand. Austin possesses, fists, the stunner and the Lou Thez press. When was the last time you saw him bodyslam or suplex someone? Clotheslines and elbows are standard nowdays. Like wise with the Rock. A spinebuster, corny elbow and Samoan drop are all he comes up with.

Kurt Angle seems to have found a new personality and that alone will push him upwards, though he has great wrestling ability and moves.

I think the most underused wrestler right now is Val Venis. The man has great moves, many different offensive types and counters, can do limited high flying, and at one time had a great gimmick and crowd pop.

Wrestling nowdays is fickle, changing direction each week instead of months like the old days.

 

[Latimer]

The Hardy's are both very very good. But sometimes, the skill of your mouth is just as important as the skill in the ring. In the early days, the Undertaker never spoke a word, instead, his ring prescence and gimmick got him across, those days are long gone. At the most, the Hardy's will be mid card Euro/Intercont. champs. But never rise to the top tier. Unfortunately that is the way it is. The Rock is very very limited in his wrestling ability, as Austin is also. You can count the number of offensive moves of both on one hand. Austin possesses, fists, the stunner and the Lou Thez press. When was the last time you saw him bodyslam or suplex someone? Clotheslines and elbows are standard nowdays. Like wise with the Rock. A spinebuster, corny elbow and Samoan drop are all he comes up with.

Kurt Angle seems to have found a new personality and that alone will push him upwards, though he has great wrestling ability and moves.

I think the most underused wrestler right now is Val Venis. The man has great moves, many different offensive types and counters, can do limited high flying, and at one time had a great gimmick and crowd pop.

Wrestling nowdays is fickle, changing direction each week instead of months like the old days.

Austin is fucked from his neck injury, so he's even more limited now. It's not like he had much variety in his arsenal before.

I'm a huge Val Venis mark! He's awesome. I thought he was headed to main event status when he had the porn star gimmick. His injury set him back big time. Then they fucked him up with is involvement in the dumbass RTC faction.

 

[Burning_Inside]

Thats all the world would need is Val Venis the porn star to be the WWF champ and lead baby face.....I can just imagine.

 

[Austin316]

Actually Austin has been doing higher risk moves lately, he took 10 suplex's from Benoit and he even did a superplex off the top rope

 

[AAP]

At one point of time, a power game was all you needed to get across. Warlord, Warrior, Hercules, Dino Bravo, Muraco, are examples. But now, you have to have a mix, either power, size and a mouth, or power, size, and wrestling ability (Benoit) Which is why Luger would not be sucessful in WWF now, he has no personality or mic skills.

I mean look at Eddie Guerero, the dude has pure wrestling talent oozing from him, but somewhat of a dull persona. He needs to get that wicked dark side of him back that he exhibited when he returned to WCW after his car wreck, all jacked up and tore through the luchadore ranks.

The WWF is really unstable right now, they are really needing a new top tier because Austin is injury ridden, the Rock is on and off from Hollywood, Triple H is at the top of the game, but out with an injury, The Undertaker and Kane have worn out their welcome, Rikishi was never main event material, and the Big Show just isn't getting across. Kurt Angle is the golden boy right now, but he is only as good as the people he works with. I found his match with Shane Mc, much more entertaining than his match against Austin. Unless Benoit, Jericho, Edge, either or both of the Hardy get a major push, the main event are going stale. Everyone knows that the WCW/ECW angle is going to have it's limitations in many ways, Unless they take a page out of the nWo book and start showing greater unity and trying to capture ALL the belts.