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HGH Injections

D

DrJMW

New member
Subcutaneous (SC) vs. Intramuscular (IM)

Even though many people, including the HGH manufacturers, recommend SC injections of HGH, I do not agree. I prefer IM injections. This is based on pharmacology and clinical observation. First, many people report pain, irritations, redness, nodules at the site of injection. There is also an adipose layer in virtually every SC site. Injection of a substance with pH lower than 7 (neutral) can cause these adverse effects. All water-based and alcohol-based injectible solutions are slightly acidic--some more than others. It is the low pH factor that causes the problem. Oil-based injectibles are neutral or slightly basic and do not cause any of the adverse sides. to combat this problem, I have recommended injecting HGH into the quad muscle. Some people can achieve this with a 1/2" needle, some have to use a longer needle to get past the adipose layer and into the muscle.

The advantages of injecting IM is one--less discomfort and adverse effects, and two--a greater increase in IGF levels than injecting into SC tissue (adipose). You still get the same fat burning effects that you would injecting SC, but you also get greater IGF levels doing so. SC Injection does not allow the HGH to get into the bloodstream to raise IGF levels. The HGH stays localized in the adipose tissue, only providing fat-burning.
 
Interesting. I would like for the debate to start on this one. I used to inject IM but was advised against it.

Nautica
 
Good info doc. I remember a while back someone was going to do a run with IM injections and report finding, ironmaster I think, but I dont remember ever seeing his posted results.
 
Zyglamail said:
Good info doc. I remember a while back someone was going to do a run with IM injections and report finding, ironmaster I think, but I dont remember ever seeing his posted results.
Click to expand...

If I remeber correctly I think it was MOD , and Ironmaster advised against it .
 
nooooooo... not more new info! i am trying to start my first GH cycle today and i am already overloaded. i had just decided to try 4iu GH pre workout and 10 units slin post workout, now i have to decide whether to shoot subQ or IM !!! let's hear from a few more who have been using GH for a while with good results. today...
 
graffixx: Any reason your doing the Gh pre w/o? I will soon be doing a gh/slin cycle and I was planning on doing both post.

Do you think I should consider taking the gh pre?

and this IM thing also has me confused - I had decided upon subq!!

Thanks
 
I was injecting HGH SC for several weeks with a red spot , rash and slight fever resulting at the injection site. Unfortunately the injections were always ending up in fat. I shifted to IM for the last few days. No rash, no redness, no problem. I feel much better overall and think the SC injections with the irritation were definitely stressing me out.
 
i am still studying up on GH, but a few people that are on now have been saying that GH takes longer to hit your system, and slin is quick, so if you want the slin to be available to enhance the GH, you need to take it before the slin. i have gotten so many diff answers from so many good people, i have a headache.
 
graffixx: I feel your pain bro!! I was told by a very knowledgable bro on EF that I should take gh/slin together since they peak at the same time and will help potentiate eachother. I've also been told to take the gh upon rising, or just prior to training!!

I just don't think a consensus is out there since the stuff is still relatively new to bbing. We are the lab rats, so to speak.

I am sticking to gh/slin immed. post training. If I double the gh doses (up to 4ius) I will also take 2 ius in the am.

Now if I could just decide on subq or IM!!!

TPH
 
Great info!

However, you will get a lot of scar tissue in the muscle when you poke 2 times per day for a lot of weeks. Especially if you cannot get any needle that is smaller than 25 gauge.

Do you also advocate IM slin shots?
 
i have heard it is ok to use the tiny 1/2" slin pin in the quad for both GH an slin...IF that is, it is ok to shoot them IM... i have shot HCG this way before.
 
Bros What is the best time for injection HGH? I have been injecting in the AM after breakfast with work-outs usually about 2 hours later at noon. Much easier time for me. But I can change if there is a better time. I had some sleep problems when I injected too late in the afternoon.
 
my workouts have been from 6 to 8pm, is this getting too late for my GH? slin? i know slin too close to bed can get you.
 
I used it for the last 6 months getting ready for a show. Because of the frequency of injections, I injected it Sub Q. I prefer to inject into my abs. I know it sounds painful, but I had great results, and was able to save the larger muscle groups for the shots that needed to be I.M. I prefer the sub q method, and never had any of the side effects mentioned above, but everyone is different. I was only using about 4I.Us a day though which some people may say is a low dose. For a 6 month cycle though it worked beautifully.
 
graffixx: I think if you are using humalog, you should be OK. I usually finish training at like 9pm and I am going to use the log at that time. I thik it will vary by person, so I'm goinmg to experiment, but I'd be sure to use log.

TPH
 
Red505 said:
I was injecting HGH SC for several weeks with a red spot , rash and slight fever resulting at the injection site. Unfortunately the injections were always ending up in fat. I shifted to IM for the last few days. No rash, no redness, no problem. I feel much better overall and think the SC injections with the irritation were definitely stressing me out.
Click to expand...

This is the feedback I am getting from many experienced users. why not go with what works? What are the negative to IM injections of HGH--anyone?
 
Sigmund Roid said:
Great info!

However, you will get a lot of scar tissue in the muscle when you poke 2 times per day for a lot of weeks. Especially if you cannot get any needle that is smaller than 25 gauge.

Do you also advocate IM slin shots?
Click to expand...

You won't get scar tissue if you move the injection sites around the body, constantly rotating.
 
graffixx said:
Latamier,
did you shoot 2 & 2 or all at once? did you use slin?
Click to expand...

I did 2 and 2. NO I did not use slin. The shit is too dangerous, and I am obviously not a pro so I dont really need that little extra slin SUPPOSEDLY adds to a cycle. Oh, and I value my life entirely too much to screw with a drug like that.
 
DrJMW said:


This is the feedback I am getting from many experienced users. why not go with what works? What are the negative to IM injections of HGH--anyone?
Click to expand...

Well bro, I do remember Ironman posting a while back about the possibility of destroying muscle tissue when injected IM. Im not saying this is true...but is what scared me from doing it.
 
great! i hope not! i just started today. 1.5 iu IM in the delt. no probs yet. i put the humulinR that mt friend gave me on the shelf for now. i will work up to 4iu a day IM (2 & 2) and let you know how it goes. i'll just run it with omna or enth for now and see what happens. the slin is there if i get the urge.
 
I just spoke with King Kamali about this issue. He claims that sub-q is preferred. I would like to hear more about IM though. Graffix, keep us posted bro.
 
DrJMW do you have any empirical data to back up this thread? Its not that I doubt your word but I do remember you advising someone to add 9cc's of sterile water to a single 18iu vail. I would supect that injecting 1cc of water sq would cause the problems that you speak of. I would like to locate studies that show IM is superior to SQ. Thank you.
 
3rd shot due today, not dead yet, no sides...but i thought i was so supossed to be 50lbs bigger bt now! NOT.

i will skip sun and then go to 2 shots of 1.5 per day monday.

more info is GOOD, keep it coming...
 
DrJMW said:
Subcutaneous (SC) vs. Intramuscular (IM)

Even though many people, including the HGH manufacturers, recommend SC injections of HGH, I do not agree. I prefer IM injections. This is based on pharmacology and clinical observation.

The advantages of injecting IM is one--less discomfort and adverse effects, and two--a greater increase in IGF levels than injecting into SC tissue (adipose). You still get the same fat burning effects that you would injecting SC, but you also get greater IGF levels doing so. SC Injection does not allow the HGH to get into the bloodstream to raise IGF levels. The HGH stays localized in the adipose tissue, only providing fat-burning.
Click to expand...

I have spent 100's of hours doing research on medline with respect to hgh. There are different tradeoffs with respect to injecting hgh IV, IM, or SC. Here are some facts,

Injecting IV yields 100% absorption into the blood stream.
Injecting SC yields 75% absorption. (Humatrope)
Injecting IM yields 63% absorption. (humatrope)

So if you inject 10iu IM you only absorb 6.3IU, if you inject 10iu SC you only absorb 7.5IU................

If you look at the prescribing info for humitrope they include a graph. If you do the math you will find that for a 100kg person, 2iu SC will increase plasma concentrations by 2-4 ng/ml over a period of 8hr. 4ng/ml corresponding to the peak concentration, and 2ng/ml corresponding to the beginning and end of the 8hr period.
This amount of gh is around a normal persons baseline levels. You basically produce gh in spurts and in-between those spurts you have the baseline levels.
It has been determined in numerous studies the growth and especially IGF-1 production is greatly increased by continuos infusion of hgh, when compared to the same amount given in pulses. I have medline abstracts on these at work.
Basically the studies say that if you took 10IU of hgh IV spread out to 10-20 inj a day (to simulate your bodies pulses of gh production), and compared those results with 10IU being given IV but continuously over a 24hr period (maintaining the same blood concentration) your body would produce more IGF and linear growth from the continuous infusion. These studies suggest that IGF-1 production with response to gh is more a function of its baseline levels.

This is why you would get more IGF-1 by injecting IM. However, you will absorb less than you would if taken SC. The absorption ratio of IM over SC based on humitrope is 0.84. So if you inject IM you will only absorb 84 percent of the amount of gh as compared to SC.

The other thing is if you inj IM or SC feedback is going to occur through IGF-1 which has a long half-life. So taking it in the morning verses at night seems senseless.

http://pi.lilly.com/us/humatrope-pi.pdf
 
so u r saying that the time of day for IM doesn't matter, the same feedback will occur. and that whatever your daily total is should be spread out to as many shots as possible. and only count .63 of whatever amount you are taking IM.

do you have data on the min dose for growth vs repair of connective tissue? or will it be the same amount?
 
gh can be injected IM, shown to have longer duration in system. but sq raises serum levels higher and is active nearly as long.

sq is the way to go. . . .
 
SC Injection does not allow the HGH to get into the bloodstream to raise IGF levels. The HGH stays localized in the adipose tissue, only providing fat-burning.
Click to expand...

Where do you get this data? Where do you get any of your data?
 
liftsiron said:
DrJMW do you have any empirical data to back up this thread? Its not that I doubt your word but I do remember you advising someone to add 9cc's of sterile water to a single 18iu vail. I would supect that injecting 1cc of water sq would cause the problems that you speak of. I would like to locate studies that show IM is superior to SQ. Thank you.
Click to expand...

I have really never advocated Sub-Q in the first place--the manufacturers do. I am just going by observation and reports from users. I will post any revelant research when I come across it again.
 
liftsiron said:


Where do you get this data? Where do you get any of your data?
Click to expand...

I get a number of the research abstracts from Medline. I do like to report feedback I get from frequent HGH users. As you can see, the observations are mixed. I have had more people report greater success with IM than SubQ. From a scientific point of view, it really doesn't mean anything. Someone needs to do a study on healthy athletes using HGH IM and SUBQ and measuring serum IGF-1 levels...right.
 
I get a number of the research abstracts from Medline. I do like to report feedback I get from frequent HGH users. As you can see, the observations are mixed. I have had more people report greater success with IM than SubQ. From a scientific point of view, it really doesn't mean anything. Someone needs to do a study on healthy athletes using HGH IM and SUBQ and measuring serum IGF-1 levels...right.
Click to expand...

You are quite correct, sir. Your thread generated various opinions and mixed views, could be hgh, like most other substances that we put into our bodies, do not work the same for each of us. I have always percieved greater fat loss and enhanced muscularity with sq hgh injections vs. im. Also as I become older the effects of gh become more pronounced, this certianly is no revelation to us older gh users. Good thread.:)
 
I forgot to mention one thing. I read a medline abstract that compared SC injections of GH in the abdomen VS thigh. There was a measurable difference in absorption between the two. The abdomen was the way to go.

If you read through all the different gh manufactures package inserts you'll notice that they all give different values of bioavailability (percent absorption) for SC. My guess is that SC inj are very dependant on the conditions at the site. I think some mfg's claim a bioavailabilty in the upper 80% range for SC. It may also be dependent on the concentration after dilution, and or what it was diluted with. If you ignore the differences in concentration and dilutant, I see no reason why any brand would be better than another. GH is GH....
However, a lot of Pro's swear that humitrope is better than serostim, and nutropin is even better than humitrope unit for unit. And they are willing to pay what 3-4 times the price for nutropin compared to a kit.....


Its also my guess that IM would yield consistent absorption results, which I believe most mfgs list to be about the same. So it sounds very possible that some people would get better results with IM, and others with SC.
 
Last edited:
mr.dank
is nutropin the same thing as norditropin? i have the premixed norditropin. and i am trying the IM route. 1.5iu last week, going to 3iu this week, then maybe 4.5-6 the week after... would welcome size gains, but main purpose is to heal tendons in elbows. stacked with omna/dbol and maybe some winny. then EQ at the end.
 
I know a few people that tore their muscles or actually tendons right off their bones. After surgery, both took 18IU a day right at the tendon. They both healed in record times. LOL

What Nutropin BTW? aq or Depot? I have not heard of anyone taking the depot, but in theory, it would give better results than regular forms of HGH.
 
here is a pic of the norditropin. if i use site inj near the elbows, is moving the site each day still important? i am at 3iu pre workout now...
 
next week i will be going up to 2iu of GH 2x per day for 5 or 6 days per week. i am still thinking about adding the slin. i am doing 2 iu in the AM and 2iu pre workout. if i add in slin, should i move the pre workout GH shot to post workout? & can the slin and GH be mixed and preloaded in the same shot???
 
Personally, I’m against using slin (unless you’re really big). Your muscles adapt so quick to it! If your blood sugar levels are normal, you don’t need it. If you still take it, you will decrease your muscles sensitivity to it and end up with low blood sugar levels. Even with lots of slin, if your blood sugar is low, you do not grow!
I can see people like Dennis James needing to take it. At that size, your gonna stress the shit out of your pancreas if you don’t.


Also for GH, It’s normal for people to hit it in the same spot
 
but what about actually mixing the GH & slin in one dart? and shooing in the AM and post workout? IF i decide to add in the slin... i am doing the GH @ 3iu pre workout IM right now.
 
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