Hey brutha - test scores

[JKurz1]

I just had my 2nd set of scores completed..........don't know the results, but the nurse called me and said the doc wants to meet with me to discuss....of course he can't get me in for FOUR days, so I'll just sit here in a state of panic. Wouldn't you think if it was serious, I'd be called in immidiately??? I did get out of her that my blood counts WBC,RBC were both low.......as they were last time.............and my test levels were low..........I'm feeling better after my pct, but it obviously didnt jump my test a significant amount anyways.........my "volume" is back to semi normal and I'm getting woodies again, lol. So somehing must be trying to click. Hard to believe I've been off for 16months and still suffering..............damn was I ignorant then............I'm tempted to meet with him, see if I'm dying or not, and then cranking a dbol tet cycle with a on point pct......what do you think oh great one (JET)

 

[mcr]

Can't help here, but just wanted to say good luck bro. Hope your results are okay.

 

[Jenetic]

Your blood counts usually drop when testosterone is low. I wouldn't even worry about that for now. I'd like to see you finalized scores once you recieve them. Personally, it sounds like you are on the way to recovery but far from recovered. We can discuss further treatment but you need to be very clear what your future intentions and goals are. Make sure you emphasize what's more important. A cycle right now is not a smart idea.

Jenetic

 

[JKurz1]

thanks bro....lets say my t levels are coming up...........I find out tomorrow.........can I hit a small cycle and a on point PCT or will it kill me?

 

[Jenetic]

You are not in a life threatening situation of any sort, but doing another cycle will impair your current recovery. Although you are making progress, you are still no where near recovered.

If you decide to run another cycle, just be able to accept the fact that everything you've done up to this point for recovery is worthless and you will be starting from square one again. If you continue to run cycles at this point, go with the HRT route and address your fertility issue when the time comes.

How much bigger do you need to be?

Jenetic

 

[JKurz1]

Hey bro....check your PM in a couple of hours.....I'm going to the doc at 8am and getting my test scores....thanks!

 

[JKurz1]

Here we go.........this goes with the October

choleserol - 125
TriGly - 38
HDL-CHol (61)
AST - 48
ALT - 67

TESTOSTERONE, SERUM 160NG/DL - VERY LOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
INSULIN (<2.0)
PROLACTIN (8.0)
TRIIODOTHYRONINE (T3) - 70NG/DL
T4 - 6.5 UG/DL
FREE TEST (DIRECT) 3.6 PG/ML
HEMOCYCT, P/S 6.8 UMOL/L
ESTRADIOL - 10PG/ML
CORTISOL 26.6 UG/DL

 

[JKurz1]

??

 

[Jenetic]

Let me give you an example of what I have been refering to:

Can T levels be restored in former anabolic steroid users?

The Study: Two hypogonadal former anabolic steroid users were studied. Normal levels of LH are >3.6 IU/L and Testosterone are 300—1000 ng/dl. Former anabolic steroid users often have suppressed levels of both.

The Results: Subject #1 is a 6', 206lb former user of 500—2000+ grams per week of anabolics. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=191ng/dl. This suject underwent a 32 day treatment of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=5.2IU/L, Test=1072 ng/dl.

Subject #2 is a 5'10", 184lb male who used 400 mg per week of nandrolone. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=45ng/dl. This subject's 32 day treatment consisted of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. There was no change. He underwent another treatment consisting of 60 days of 5000 IU of HCG every 4 days for 4 injections, then 2500 IU every 4 days for 4 injections, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. Still, no change. For the next 32 days, this subject received 5000 IU of HCG every other day for 6 injections, then 2500 IU every other day for 6 injections given with 150 IU of menotropins, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex 2 times per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=9.8IU/L, Test=507 ng/dl.

Therfore, you can see that homeostasis can be restored. The actual route of treatment will vary from person to person and requires a level mind and patience.

The choice you need to make is whether or not you wish to spend the time and resources to insure a full recovery.

Jenetic

 

[JKurz1]

Let me give you an example of what I have been refering to:

Can T levels be restored in former anabolic steroid users?

The Study: Two hypogonadal former anabolic steroid users were studied. Normal levels of LH are >3.6 IU/L and Testosterone are 300—1000 ng/dl. Former anabolic steroid users often have suppressed levels of both.

The Results: Subject #1 is a 6', 206lb former user of 500—2000+ grams per week of anabolics. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=191ng/dl. This suject underwent a 32 day treatment of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=5.2IU/L, Test=1072 ng/dl.

Subject #2 is a 5'10", 184lb male who used 400 mg per week of nandrolone. His baseline numbers were: LH<1IU/L, Test=45ng/dl. This subject's 32 day treatment consisted of 2500 IU of HCG every 4 days, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. There was no change. He underwent another treatment consisting of 60 days of 5000 IU of HCG every 4 days for 4 injections, then 2500 IU every 4 days for 4 injections, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex per day. Still, no change. For the next 32 days, this subject received 5000 IU of HCG every other day for 6 injections, then 2500 IU every other day for 6 injections given with 150 IU of menotropins, 50 mg of clomid 2 times per day, and 10 mg nolvadex 2 times per day. 15 days after treatment his numbers were: LH=9.8IU/L, Test=507 ng/dl.

Therfore, you can see that homeostasis can be restored. The actual route of treatment will vary from person to person and requires a level mind and patience.

The choice you need to make is whether or not you wish to spend the time and resources to insure a full recovery.

Jenetic

what are you suggesting????? Are my scores horrid???

What I would love to do as I know he's gonna keep me on the patch, which I havent taken since that PCT we did............I'd love to run a small test/dbol/eq cycle........maybe 10 weeks, get my mojo really kickn, then hit a perfect PCT cycle and stop everything untill Im totally recovered.........what detrimental effects will this have?

Also, whats the reasoning behind my blood counts being so low? Low test?

 

[Jenetic]

I'm not sure why your doc only test for those limited figures. Anyways, you have shown an improvement since your previous test results. This shows that you are in the process of recovery.

You obviously want to do another cycle, therefore I won't try and convince you not to do so. Looks like you've made up your mind already and just need someone to assure you that it's ok.

A regular PCT won't even come close to helping you. Take a good look at my previous post with the study included. If you can't handle that, just go with HRT.

Jenetic

 

[Paulo]

what are you suggesting????? Are my scores horrid???

What I would love to do as I know he's gonna keep me on the patch, which I havent taken since that PCT we did............I'd love to run a small test/dbol/eq cycle........maybe 10 weeks, get my mojo really kickn, then hit a perfect PCT cycle and stop everything untill Im totally recovered.........what detrimental effects will this have?

Also, whats the reasoning behind my blood counts being so low? Low test?

Mr. JKurz, The answer to every question you have asked, is in this thread, multiple times no less. A cycle will NOT get your "mojo kickin". You can't undo what has been done by piling more anabolics on top of things. Please re-read this statement until you understand.

You're a good bro and I'm not trying to be snide. Just making a last ditch effort to help you see the light.

The reason why your test levels are low, is because you have not recovered. Period, end of story. Any chance of recovery you have is to put yourself on a solid HCG/Nolva regimine. This is something that is not open to interpretation or subjective analysis. And Jenetic, being the good bro he is, has offered you the most probable way of getting your test levels back in shape. If you choose not to follow this, then I doubt there's much else he, I, or anyone else can do for you.

Best of good fortune towards a full recovery.

 

[tomp]

JKurz1, what did your cycles consist of that caused this to occur? I am curious because I am in similar situation because of some faulty Test amps where half of them were bunk.

 

[JKurz1]

I'm not hard headed (well, ok, a little), but just trying to understand the logic. Tell me if this is correct - My best advice would be to right now run a HCG (5,000 e3d?) and nolva combo (20mg ed) for 3 weeks and get retested? Then, if I'm up to par, I can think about another cycle...........right?

NOW, If I chose to run a test/dbol cycle now, with some nolva, won't that get my test levels back to normal? What is I include HCG in my cycle for the duration? Won't this bring up my test levels and then completely sustain them at an elevated level esp. when I run a solid PCT post? Or am I completely missing the boat?

 

[Jenetic]

Your logic is incorrect. In a nutshell, wishful thinking. You will be supressed if you run another cycle and will not be able to maintain the elevated testosterone levels without the continued usage of exogenous testosterone. Thats the bottom line, no exceptions.

Here are your choices:

1. Make the effort to fully recover. This will take a lot more time than you think and there is still no gaurantee. From my experience, it will take a minimum of 30-60 days to achieve a full recovery. You may want consider training natural if homeostasis is achieved. You should have no problem maintaining your current conditioning and should be able to improve on it naturally as long as you are consistent with your training and nutrition.

2. Run another cycle. Accept the fact that you wasted your previous efforts and will have to start from square one again. There is nothing wrong with this decision.

3. Hormone replacement therapy (HRT). In this scenario, you will be on exogenous testosterone permanently and for the rest of your life. You will have the freedom to continue with your cycles as desired. Once a cycle has concluded, you will resume your HRT dosage. There are various treatments to address fertility if it does in fact become severely impaired.

Jenetic

 

[JKurz1]

Whelp, Im pretty confident that I will run another PCT (#1 on your list...)

Just want to clear up #2, as what will that mean? I run a test/dbol cycle, my levels rise, I run a pct, they may drop below norm again, and then I'll have to keep running pcts until they are up and moving?????? Is that what you are saying? Thanks brotha

 

[Jenetic]

Whelp, Im pretty confident that I will run another PCT (#1 on your list...)

Just want to clear up #2, as what will that mean? I run a test/dbol cycle, my levels rise, I run a pct, they may drop below norm again, and then I'll have to keep running pcts until they are up and moving?????? Is that what you are saying? Thanks brotha

To clarify option two, the increase in testosterone will only be temporary. Your testosterone levels will decrease concurrently as the exogenous hormones diminish from your system. Considering your body's endogenous production is already severely impaired, it's safe to say that you will be further complicating the situation. In other words, you are basically fucking yourself if you are interested in a achieving a full recovery.

The next step regardless of your decision is not even considered PCT. This is a full blown treatment for hypogonadism. Once it starts, constant monitoring and feedback will be required as you will not stop the treatment until specific goals have been met.

Jenetic

 

[JKurz1]

WHat do you make of my low white blood cell count? Doc did all the tests...says he doesnt think its cncer, but wants me to see a hemotoligist....he also wants me on the 5mg patch for a year.....now what's different between running a cycle and using the patch if he wont give me the script for PCT???

 

[Jenetic]

The doctor is not familiar with your situation. HRT will undboutedly solve the majority of the symptoms you are currently experiencing. The difference from a regular cycle is that you are not taking supraphysiological dosages of AAS. The goal is to restore your testosterone production into the high normal range. You need to make it clear to him, before begining HRT, that you would like to make an honest attempt to the best of your ability in regards to restoring your endogenous testosterone production. If he is hesistant or unsure of himself, you need to find another doctor who does have experience with this type of situation or simply obtain the necessary items on your own. Otherwise, it looks like your only alternative is HRT.

There are several factors present that directly relate to your blood count results.
First, low Testosterone attributes to a decreased production of red blood cells. Testosterone stimulates the production of red blood cells. Second, elevated Cortisol attributes to a decreased production of white blood cells. In addition, androgens antagonize Cortisol which applies in this case as well. Low testosterone can result in elevated Cortisol. This is a basic explanation in regards to these hormonal influences. Training, nutrition and rest also play an significant role to your blood count results. Overtraining, inadequate caloric intake and insufficient rest can have a profound impact on your blood count. This is common when dieting. In conclusion, combine all the previously mentioned factors together and you have the perfect cocktail for impaired RBC and WBC.

Jenetic

 

[JKurz1]

Do you have an AIM account? Instant messenger?? I swear to GOD J - I could kiss you if you are right. How do you f-ing know so much? He's the deal, he's done all the tests and is baffeled....he thinks its got to do with my bone marrow and wants me t see a hemotologist and an endocronlist.....he's an excellent doc, really, just not his background and thats why he is making the referral........I cant get into see the doc until late January, so I made an appt........untill then he wants me to stay on the patch at 5mg a day (which I havent touched since I did that pct with you....) So what if I do a small test cycle and have him retest me in a few weeks......then everything blood wise will be up and so will my test (which is what the patch will do) and then we'll have closure. Then, I will do a pct and stay off the sauce......Ive just lost so much weight through dieting hard and cardio that I need a boost...........thoughts???

 

[JKurz1]

200mg of test/wk?

 

[Jenetic]

So what if I do a small test cycle and have him retest me in a few weeks......then everything blood wise will be up and so will my test (which is what the patch will do) and then we'll have closure. Then, I will do a pct and stay off the sauce......Ive just lost so much weight through dieting hard and cardio that I need a boost...........thoughts???

Please do not continue to do this. You have basically just rephrased your original question about doing a cycle and then running PCT. I've already addressed that for you numerous times.

I want to help you but you're not making things any easier by rephrasing the same question over and over again.

Jenetic

 

[JKurz1]

ok..my apologies...........what is your pct reccomendation and what is your hrt reccomendation?

 

[Jenetic]

HRT is highly dependant on the individual. On average, 75-100 mgs Testosterone EW.

When you say PCT, are you refering to your particular situation or just in general?

Jenetic

 

[c gheller]

Jenetic, Tell the bro want he wants to hear....DO ANOTHER CYCLE!!

jkurz1, bro the message is loud and clear. Jenetic has provided you with all the information to help your situation, and seems to me all you want him to tell you is to do another cycle. Hes made it very clear that is NOT a smart option..you are on the road to recovery so stick with it. As for HRT, unless you are 65years or above a choice to stay on HRT for the rest of your life is absolutlely crazy. Make a decision when you are thinking more clearly. Goodluck.

 

[JKurz1]

HRT is highly dependant on the individual. On average, 75-100 mgs Testosterone EW.

When you say PCT, are you refering to your particular situation or just in general?

Jenetic

http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/overtraining.html

what do you think?>??? I think I just diagnsed myself to a tee.........

When someone goes on HRT, say 100-200mg of test enth a week, their natty test rised, correct? THEN, what? Are you on HRT forever, I know some are, but is everyone? Do you include HCG the entire way through in hopes of kicking your natty test back into gear???


65 years old??? LOL....I know many in their 20's who are on the presc......many more than over 60 actually.......

 

[Jenetic]

http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/overtraining.html

what do you think?>??? I think I just diagnsed myself to a tee.........

When someone goes on HRT, say 100-200mg of test enth a week, their natty test rised, correct? THEN, what? Are you on HRT forever, I know some are, but is everyone? Do you include HCG the entire way through in hopes of kicking your natty test back into gear???

I addressed overtraining and it's relationship to your blood test results already in a previous post on this thread.

Training, nutrition and rest also play an significant role to your blood count results. Overtraining, inadequate caloric intake and insufficient rest can have a profound impact on your blood count. This is common when dieting.

You have just rephrased your original question again. HRT is not about increasing your "natural" testosterone production. The increase in testosterone is achieved by supplementing synthetic testosterone. Once again, you are not improving your endogenous production. The exogenous testosterone inhibits the normal function of your HPTA which in turn inhibits your natural tesosterone production. HCG does nothing in this scenario other than increase testicular volume. It's not mandatory and may be included as an option but it serves no recovery purposes since the goal of HRT is unlike a cycle and is a life long commitment.

With all due respect, you need to seek some proffesional help in regards to your behavior. You clearly display a variety of anxiety disorders. This may be the single most important thing in your life that needs to be addressed as it applies to all aspects of your life.

Jenetic

 

[c gheller]

Jkurz1, Basically what im tring to say to you is that if you make a concious decision to go on HRT for life at such a young age because you are scared to lose a bit of size or condition, you are a very stupid not to mention ignorant person. It may seem that muscles are all there is to life at this point (early 20s) but you will find as you get a bit older you will look at things from a much more mature viewpoint.
Bro its simple. You are half way to recovery it seems....stick with it, take a break and in future keep your cycles short with a full PCT at the end. I tend to agree with Jenetic, and i think that if you choose any other option than sticking with the recovery until you are fully recovered then you have other issues you need to sort out.

 

[JKurz1]

I addressed overtraining and it's relationship to your blood test results already in a previous post on this thread.



You have just rephrased your original question again. HRT is not about increasing your "natural" testosterone production. The increase in testosterone is achieved by supplementing synthetic testosterone. Once again, you are not improving your endogenous production. The exogenous testosterone inhibits the normal function of your HPTA which in turn inhibits your natural tesosterone production. HCG does nothing in this scenario other than increase testicular volume. It's not mandatory and may be included as an option but it serves no recovery purposes since the goal of HRT is unlike a cycle and is a life long commitment.

With all due respect, you need to seek some proffesional help in regards to your behavior. You clearly display a variety of anxiety disorders. This may be the single most important thing in your life that needs to be addressed as it applies to all aspects of your life.

Jenetic

I'm not trying to rephrase my question nor am I truly concerned with another cycle. I'm just trying to understand the hrt process and it's longevity.....as for the anxiety disorders, hardly, but I can see from my previous posts where I may have come across like that. My doc wants me on the patch and he wants me on the patch NOW.....this is all im saying. I'm trying to understand the difference from going on the patch and 100-200mg of test a week. I'm also trying to understand what his next plan would be once my test levels are normal.......won't I just drop off again?

 

[JKurz1]

Now don't shoot me, I'm just asking........I have some clomid and nolv handy....hcg will take a few weeks........would taking those two now be ok, or should I wait for all 3?

 

[tomp]

Can somone please answer my qestiion as I am in same boat?

JKurz1, what did your cycles consist of that caused this to occur? I am curious because I am in similar situation because of some faulty Test amps where half of them were bunk.

 

[c gheller]

Jenetic is more qualified to comment on this one but id wait til you get the HCG. I am happy to see bro that you are talking more about your recovery than your next cycle. Stay OFF the patches, they are a form of HRT and as long as you supplement your system with exogenous testosterone, your are suppressing your own test and then you are back at square one with your recovery. Once you have your levels restored through a full and proper recovery they will not drop unless you supplement your test supply(go on a cycle)that is of course unless you have an underlying condition. Im presuming you are generally a healthy person.

 

[JKurz1]

thanks..J - what do you think on a pct dose? Lose the patch?

Hypothetically, if I do what the doc says and take the patch, I realize this will further supress my levels....then what? I'll have to stay on forever?

Final ? - If my low test is a result of Overtraining and NOT being shut down, like my post read, would this change your mind on adding in a test source if I took a week off from training?

 

[c gheller]

No you wont have to stay on the patch for ever if you take it now but if ever you stop the patch then you WILL need to run a full PCT..... the length of the PCT will depend on how well you respond. As for taking time off. If you feel like you are overtrained then i would take a minimum of 10 days off...no exercise at all.

 

[JKurz1]

Thanks for the reply, but I'm confident this goes against J's theories, no? In y first post I asked how 100mg of test would differ from the patch BESIDES the fact that it would be a little more.........so, using your theory, if I took 100mg of test a week fr 2 months, then ran a full pct, I would be ok.........

I think I will run a pct with nolv and clomid, take 10 days off, and see where I stand.

 

[c gheller]

If you ran 100mg teat a week for 2 months and you were fully recovered now i would say you would be ok yes....BUT the key here is and im sure J has made it clear to you, you are not fully recovered and if you run any test without recovering fully first you are going to complicate thing further in the future. Running test in any form for you right now is NOT an option..stick with the recovery.

 

[Jenetic]

I'm not trying to rephrase my question nor am I truly concerned with another cycle. I'm just trying to understand the hrt process and it's longevity.....as for the anxiety disorders, hardly, but I can see from my previous posts where I may have come across like that. My doc wants me on the patch and he wants me on the patch NOW.....this is all im saying. I'm trying to understand the difference from going on the patch and 100-200mg of test a week. I'm also trying to understand what his next plan would be once my test levels are normal.......won't I just drop off again?

I think where you are confused is that your doctor is recommending the patch as a therapy to restore your testosterone levels. You feel that because he is your doctor, that he is not misleading you any way and there is probably something I'm missing out on.

Ask your doctor the following question:

I understand that this patch will raise my testosterone levels.

Doesn't this patch suppress my own production? What happens after my levels stabalize? Do I continue the with the patch or does this mean I am fine from here on out?

I can't help you anymore on this subject.

YOU ARE NOT RESTORING YOUR OWN ENDOGENOUS PRODUCTION WITH ANY FORM OF EXTERNAL TESTOSTERONE PREPARATION. YES, YOUR TESTOSTERONE LEVELS WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SUSTAIN THEMSELVES WITHOUT THE PATCH AND YOUR LEVELS WILL DROP BACK DOWN.

Jenetic

 

[Jenetic]

thanks..J - what do you think on a pct dose? Lose the patch?

Hypothetically, if I do what the doc says and take the patch, I realize this will further supress my levels....then what? I'll have to stay on forever?

Final ? - If my low test is a result of Overtraining and NOT being shut down, like my post read, would this change your mind on adding in a test source if I took a week off from training?

Can't you see by now that anything with the slightest possibility of being related to your situation sounds like the root of the problem??? I could give you about 7 more examples which would drive you to the point of suicide.

You are not shut down from overtraining but certain aspects of your blood test results have been affected in someway by your overall training, nutrition and rest program.

I've already told you about the recovery procedure. There is no magic formula. Each and every case is different. Your subsequent dosages will depend on your initial response to the therapy.

Jenetic

 

[Jenetic]

This is my final post on this thread.

Go with your doctors recommendation and disregard all my posts.

Best Wishes.

Jenetic

 

[JKurz1]

I understand completely......and you are right, I hate to go against what my doc says to do....what do you think/hope is next step would be after he takes me off the patch or does he really hve no clue?

 

[JKurz1]

ok..J..last one...just spoke with my doc....he has scheduled me to meet with a very very good endocrologist from the Cleveland Clinic at the end of January (1st available) and a hemotogolist next week.....he wants me on the patch until I meet with the endo......honestly, take his advice or dont do anything? Is it ok to subject myself to synthetic test for a month? Maybe my levels will be up and the endo will take me off and prescribe me a pct????

 

[tomp]

Unsuscribing from this thread! No one ever listened or answered my questions

 

[Jenetic]

Can somone please answer my qestiion as I am in same boat?

Every individual is different. Why don't you PM Jkurz and get a direct answer?

Jenetic

 

[Jenetic]

ok..J..last one...just spoke with my doc....he has scheduled me to meet with a very very good endocrologist from the Cleveland Clinic at the end of January (1st available) and a hemotogolist next week.....he wants me on the patch until I meet with the endo......honestly, take his advice or dont do anything? Is it ok to subject myself to synthetic test for a month? Maybe my levels will be up and the endo will take me off and prescribe me a pct????

I already told you to just deal with your doctor and to disregard my comments.

Why on earth would you need PCT or any recovery protocol if your levels have increased to normal values?

Are you antagonizing me on purposely here?

Jenetic