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heart attacks

MASSIVEMONSTER

New member
Anyone known of anyone who has had a heart attack attributed to gear?
I eat well, am lean, dont smoke or drink and have had my heart checked after some pains and all is ok but wondering if anyone knows of someone who has had heart problems over using gear??
 
MASSIVEMONSTER said:
Anyone known of anyone who has had a heart attack attributed to gear?
I eat well, am lean, dont smoke or drink and have had my heart checked after some pains and all is ok but wondering if anyone knows of someone who has had heart problems over using gear??

a couple of people yes. Of course gear is not the only factor, but it certainly does make things worse.
 
off hand I can think of 3 people that have had problems in real life. plus I also dug this up.


Sudden cardiac death during anabolic steroid abuse: morphologic and toxicologic findings in two fatal cases of bodybuilders



Fineschi V, Riezzo I, Centini F, Silingardi E, Licata M, Beduschi G, Karch SB.
Int J Legal Med. 2005 Nov 15;:1-6 [Epub ahead of print]

A consensus is beginning to emerge that chronic AAS abuse may be associated with an increased risk of sudden cardiac death (SCD), myocardial infarction, altered serum lipoproteins, and cardiac hypertrophy.

To further examine the relationship between AAS and SCD, we report two cases of sudden cardiac death that occurred in previously healthy bodybuilders taking AAS at the time of death. In both cases, we were able to perform an autopsy, histology of the organs, and toxicologic analysis.


Case 1

A 29-year-old bodybuilder suddenly collapsed after dinner in his apartment. He had a weight lifting workout at the gymnasium a few hours before.

Cardiopulmonary resuscitation initiated by an emergency physician was unsuccessful. According to friends of the deceased, he had been taking anabolic steroids (testosterone, nandrolone, and stanozolol) parenterally for several years mainly in an effort to improve his appearance. Several glass vials were found in his room and were labeled Winstrol (stanozolol), Deca (nandrolone), Testoviron Depot, and Andriol (testosterone).

At autopsy, the body weighed 72 kg, and the length was 166 cm [body mass index (BMI), 26.1]. The decedent had a muscular build, and there were no external signs of injury. Apart from the heart, all other organs were macroscopically normal. The heart had a normal shape and weighed 380 g, with a predicted weight of 304 g (range 215–429 g). The coronary arteries were normal. The myocardium and the valvular apparatus were normal. Both ventricular wall thicknesses were normal. Samples of the atria and ventricles (n=10) were taken, fixed in 10% buffered formalin, and embedded in paraffin.

Microscopic examination revealed numerous foci of contraction band necrosis. There were two microfoci of fibrosis, one in the subendocardial anterior left ventricle and one in the interventricular septum.

Segmentation of the myocardial cells and/or widening of intercalated discs and bundles of contracted myocardium alternating with bundles of distended myocardium with granular disruption of the myocytes were noted in all myocardial sections.

Examination of the conduction system performed according to Sheppard and Davies was unremarkable. The coronary arteries were normal along their entire course, showing only the physiologic intimal thickening typical of the subepicardial arterial vessels. The remainder of the histological examination was unremarkable.

Complete toxicologic examination was negative for drugs of abuse, including ethanol, but multiple AASs were detected by comparison of each spectrum with the instrument’s National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) Library.

The positive results for nandrolone, stanozolol, and their metabolites were confirmed with AAS standards supplied by SALARS and Sigma. The urine concentration was for nandrolone not measurable, stanozolol 43 µg/l, and testosterone/epitestosterone ratio (T/E)=28.7.


Case 2

A 30-year-old male, first an amateur, and later a competitive bodybuilder, who worked out regularly at the gymnasium, suddenly collapsed at home and was pronounced dead by an emergency physician who does not start cardiopulmonary resuscitation.

He had a weight lifting workout at the gymnasium a few hours before. In an ashtray near the body, a 2-ml vial of nandrolone decanoate was found along with a used 2.5-ml syringe. The apartment contained a veritable arsenal of drugs, most of which fell into the AAS category.

All witnesses confirmed that the subject had started using AAS approximately 6 months prior to his death. Baseline blood tests, performed a few days before death, were unremarkable except for a slight increase in hepatic enzymes.

The body was that of a well-built man (weight 90 kg, length 178 cm, and BMI=28.4). External examination revealed a needle mark on the upper external part of the right buttocks. The autopsy revealed abnormal muscle development, testicular atrophy, and hepatomegaly. The heart weight was 400 g. The wall thicknesses were normal.

Coronary arteries showed scattered fatty streaks. Histopathologic examination of the heart revealed focal myocardial fibrosis; examination of the conduction system performed according to Sheppard and Davies was unremarkable. The liver showed cholestasis and vascular gaps compatible with the diagnosis of peliosis hepatis.

Tests for narcotics, psychotropic drugs, and for ethanol were negative. Screening for anabolic agents was done using the examination procedure proposed by Karch. Urine screening revealed the presence of norandrosterone, and blood test was also positive for nandrolone. TE ratio was 42. The total absence of hair in the whole body did not allow the relevant tests to be carried out.


Discussion

In both cases, the morphologic findings are, in combination with the toxicologic findings, sufficient to explain the deaths as related to the cardiac effects of AAS abuse. In both cases, blood and/or urine revealed the presence of nandrolone and its principal metabolite (19-norandrosterone). A thorough scene investigation documents the subjects’ use of stanozolol and nandrolone (presumably “nandrolone decanoate” as found in the ashtray).

Because the metabolite was not normalized to the creatinine ratio, little can be concluded about the urine concentration, but the values found here are comparable to previously reported values.

The high testosterone/epitestosterone ratio supports our hypothesis that testosterone was the form of the abused drug.

Hepatic diseases in athletes and bodybuilders after abusing AAS have been reported. Hepatic injury, including cholestasis, peliosis hepatis, hyperplasia, and tumors, have been attributed to abuse of the 17a-alkylated AAS.

In the present case, cholestasis injury induced by AAS consisted mainly of bile accumulation in the cytoplasm of the liver cells and of bile casts in canaliculi, but without evidence of inflammation or necrosis.

Peliosis hepatis is defined as cystic blood-filled spaces in the liver. Microscopic peliosis hepatis is often confused with extreme sinusoidal dilatation or with evacuation of the liver cell plates, a lesion seen after zonal hepatocellular dropout but without loss of the normal reticulin fibers. To be called peliosis hepatis, lesions should have evidence of rupture of these fibers. In our case, lesions were randomly distributed without zonal preference.

The available literature examining the cardiovascular effects of AAS share some common features. Abuse of AAS can induce alterations in lipoprotein metabolism that may predispose to myocardial infarction.

The presence of androgen receptors in human cardiac myocytes in both sexes and the fact that androgens can directly mediate a significant hypertrophic response in cardiac myocytes have been demonstrated.

Vascular endothelial cells may be directly affected by AAS, which may result in vasospasm.

Moreover, the fact that abusers take a bewilderingly large number of steroid products, in various forms, singly and in different temporal combinations and sequences, makes interpretation of pathologic findings extremely difficult.

In the present cases and in all but one of the published reports, the coronary arteries were free of atheroma, and there was no evidence of thrombi.

We did not find myocardial hypertrophy; therefore, we were unable to confirm the suggestion that AAS toxicity is manifested mainly as myocardial hypertrophy. It has recently been proposed that body builders taking AAS experience sustained increases in heart rate and blood pressure that may result in compensatory hypertrophy of the left ventricular wall, but it is unclear how one would distinguish hypertrophy due to AAS and hypertrophy due to exercise itself.

The proportion of these increased physiological parameters attributable to AAS, as opposed to that resulting from the exercise itself, is unclear, and three recent studies of bodybuilders taking AAS did not demonstrate significant cardiac hypertrophy.

It is, however, agreed that when AAS abuse is coupled with intense exercise training, concentric hypertrophy of the left ventricular wall and impaired diastolic function may result. Drug-free vigorous weight training will also increase left ventricular wall thickness and mass but will not hinder cardiac function. However, when combined with anabolic steroids, cardiac hypertrophy could become pathologic.

There are additional steroid-related pathophysiologic mechanisms that might have played a role in causing the cardiac pathology noted here. Four hypothetical models of how AAS abuse might induce adverse cardiovascular effects (atherogenesis, thrombosis, coronary artery vasospasm, and direct injury models) have been proposed.

Our findings were consistent with the direct injury model. Indeed, the heart expresses androgen receptors and would, therefore, be directly influenced to some degree by AAS.

We have previously reported focal myocardial necrosis in AAS users, namely, coagulative myocytolysis (or contraction band necrosis), typical of catecholamine myocytotoxicity, linked with ventricular fibrillation and sudden death. The described focal fibrous area could be interpreted as the healing phase, with progressive collagenization ending in a fibrous scar of previously focal myocell necrosis.

From these findings, it can be concluded that anabolic steroids and exercise lead to a stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system.

Recently, it has been described that the combined effect of exercise and anabolic steroids causes an overstimulation followed by a transient functional and structural destabilization of the sympathetic axon terminals; the transient destabilization of sympathetic axon terminals could be suggested as a reason for increased vulnerability to ventricular fibrillation.

Our cases support the hypothesis that the combined effects of vigorous weight training, anabolic steroid use, and androgen sensitivity may have predisposed these young men to myocardial injury and subsequent sudden cardiac death.

We would reinforce the warning against use of these drugs by athletes and heightened surveillance for AAS-related death that may be underrecognized and underreported in the medical literature.
 
I had a very good bro die about a year ago. He did MASSIVE amounts of gear. He had a heart attack when he snorted drugs. He didn't snort any more than anyone else would have. I believe he just had so much damage to his heart he couldn't take it.
i guess the bottom line is we all live, we all die. Why go thru life small.
 
stormin67 said:
I had a very good bro die about a year ago. He did MASSIVE amounts of gear. He had a heart attack when he snorted drugs. He didn't snort any more than anyone else would have. I believe he just had so much damage to his heart he couldn't take it.
i guess the bottom line is we all live, we all die. Why go thru life small.

Because I want to live to the age where I know I have done my best in securing a good future for my children. thats why.

edit: also curious, what you consier massive amounts of gear?
 
shit i didnt expect people to say they had known people who have had heart attacks.. I thought it was rare, you never really here of pros dropping dead and they take shit loads.
Will 1 gram of gear a week spread out over many cycles over 5-10 years mess you up or are we talking 3-5g a week without ever coming off.
Surely if your BP is fine and lipids are ok your not at risk??
 
What I don't think most younger guys realize is that heart attacks, strokes, etc are not usually something you need to be concerned with until you're older. The human body can handle just about anything you throw at it for limited periods of time. However, as time goes by the more likely you'll have problems. There's a lot of other factors that determine the fate of your health too like genetics, diet, stress, lifestyle choices, etc. . It's been my experience that the most common cause of immediate health probs in juicers is bad injections that lead to nasty abcesses or staph infections(which can lead to death in some cases).
 
when you hear of BB`s having heart probs it is usually due to a genetic prob, they may smoke or take rec drugs on a regular basis.
if someone eats a low fat diet, does a bit of CV and cycles carefully with the gear there risk factor cant be any higher than the average joe, right?
 
I know Pro Bodybuilder Mike Matarozzo had Heart surgery to unclog his arteries and he said it came from a combination of taking AAS plus a high consumption of Red Meat. I know AAS elevate your bad cholesterol levels but I have not heard of anyone having any heart problems as long as they eat lean and clean.



MASSIVEMONSTER said:
Anyone known of anyone who has had a heart attack attributed to gear?
I eat well, am lean, dont smoke or drink and have had my heart checked after some pains and all is ok but wondering if anyone knows of someone who has had heart problems over using gear??
 
igf-1 will cause heart desease + induce serious stage III cancer
 
"Recently, it has been described that the combined effect of exercise and anabolic steroids causes an overstimulation followed by a transient functional and structural destabilization of the sympathetic axon terminals; the transient destabilization of sympathetic axon terminals could be suggested as a reason for increased vulnerability to ventricular fibrillation.

Our cases support the hypothesis that the combined effects of vigorous weight training, anabolic steroid use, and androgen sensitivity may have predisposed these young men to myocardial injury and subsequent sudden cardiac death."


Any thoughts on this ?
 
MASSIVEMONSTER said:
Anyone known of anyone who has had a heart attack attributed to gear?
I eat well, am lean, dont smoke or drink and have had my heart checked after some pains and all is ok but wondering if anyone knows of someone who has had heart problems over using gear??


not personally caused by AAS..and i work with MANY athletes,
 
BLACKDOOG said:
I know Pro Bodybuilder Mike Matarozzo had Heart surgery to unclog his arteries and he said it came from a combination of taking AAS plus a high consumption of Red Meat. I know AAS elevate your bad cholesterol levels but I have not heard of anyone having any heart problems as long as they eat lean and clean.


not only do they raise LDL but the tend to KILL HDL levels (some anyway winny comes to mind here and is one of my fav.things to run but it murdered my HDL so im going to try and limit its use over the long haul) and im sure that plays a role, exactly how much is only speculation on my part as im no doctor....here is some info on HDL/LDL

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=180
 
Bottom line like they say....too much of a good thing can be a bad thing, and in this case I think it plays a good role. Nobod really knows and if your going to do gear, your going to do it. People aren't going to be swayed or manipulated to not do gear by a couple heart attacks because the human mentality is, "it won't happen to me" or just people don't care if it does because they think they'll be able to fix it. But if your exercising, running, and not ABUSING any substance your taking, you should be fine. Just know your own limits and be smart about what your doing, don't try to be superhuman, or do something that you have to think twice about, by consuming way more than you know is not regular. Just my 2cc
 
To the original thread starter-------thanks for the information,reading stuff like that always makes me think about this gear game and the risks.
Then again everything in life is a risk,in one form or another.
 
MASSIVEMONSTER said:
when you hear of BB`s having heart probs it is usually due to a genetic prob, they may smoke or take rec drugs on a regular basis.
if someone eats a low fat diet, does a bit of CV and cycles carefully with the gear there risk factor cant be any higher than the average joe, right?
I'd like to think that's the case. I'll tell you something that you might find to be interesting. I graduated from high school with a guy named Brain Traxler(google for more 411). He played pro baseball for the Dodgers/coached semi pro baseball too. A year ago around X-mas time he became ill with the flu-and died 2 weeks later!!! He never did recreational drugs, but he ate whatever he wanted(was built like the Babe)and drank a lot of beer for as long as I can remember. His death was attributed to health complications associated with his liver. About 3 yrs after graduation, most of the people I knew thought that I was going to die prematurely someday from taking steroids-yet nobody ever suspected a pro baseball player like him to die-especially before me. I've been "on" more than "off" since age 21-but my for the most part my diet has been clean and I did a lot of cardio daily. Assuming he was drinking 2-3 cases+ of beer/wk and ate like shit, you can draw your own conclusion as to who's post high school lifestyle was more unhealthy.
 
BigCracker said:
I'd like to think that's the case. I'll tell you something that you might find to be interesting. I graduated from high school with a guy named Brain Traxler(google for more 411). He played pro baseball for the Dodgers/coached semi pro baseball too. A year ago around X-mas time he became ill with the flu-and died 2 weeks later!!! He never did recreational drugs, but he ate whatever he wanted(was built like the Babe)and drank a lot of beer for as long as I can remember. His death was attributed to health complications associated with his liver. About 3 yrs after graduation, most of the people I knew thought that I was going to die prematurely someday from taking steroids-yet nobody ever suspected a pro baseball player like him to die-especially before me. I've been "on" more than "off" since age 21-but my for the most part my diet has been clean and I did a lot of cardio daily. Assuming he was drinking 2-3 cases+ of beer/wk and ate like shit, you can draw your own conclusion as to who's post high school lifestyle was more unhealthy.

so drinking beer and eating like shit is the worse of the two evils in your eyes (which for the record I mostly agree with)... that still means that AAS are another evil.
 
Anyone with any sense would have said:

"IGF-1 ***CAN*** cause blah blah..."

I have no idea if he's right but his phrasing is definitely wrong.
 
you take a risk driving to work everyday, you take a risk taking a tylonol or asprin for your headaches, you take risks that you dont even know about every day. my opinion is If you play it smart, dont abuse, i think you will be just fine.
 
The reality check:
AAS can cause high blood pressure - check your BP regularly and if high, treat it.
It can have adverse effect on cholestrol - monitor it.
Every one on AAS (ONLY with injectibles) MUST consider taking cholestrol medicines like Lipitor. This is something you can do something about. More and more research is showing that as to cholestrol, the lower the better.
People can have irregular heart rhythms and congestive heart failure at a young age because of congenital problems.
These are just case reports - the weakest kind of evidence.
There has been no scientific evidence that use of AAS directly causes heart disease.

BUT WHEN YOU TAKE MASSIVE DOSES, ALL BETS ARE OFF.
Other than congenital heart problems, the most common cause of heart attacks at younger age group is recreational drug use (cocain, amphetamines)
 
LoneTree said:
The reality check:
AAS can cause high blood pressure - check your BP regularly and if high, treat it.
It can have adverse effect on cholestrol - monitor it.
Every one on AAS (ONLY with injectibles) MUST consider taking cholestrol medicines like Lipitor. This is something you can do something about. More and more research is showing that as to cholestrol, the lower the better.
People can have irregular heart rhythms and congestive heart failure at a young age because of congenital problems.
These are just case reports - the weakest kind of evidence.
There has been no scientific evidence that use of AAS directly causes heart disease.

BUT WHEN YOU TAKE MASSIVE DOSES, ALL BETS ARE OFF.
Other than congenital heart problems, the most common cause of heart attacks at younger age group is recreational drug use (cocain, amphetamines)



"Every one on AAS (ONLY with injectibles) MUST consider taking cholestrol medicines"

So anyone on HRT must be on Cholesterol meds right? Wrong. Orals are much worse, especially non aromatizing. Moderate doses of test do not influence levels much at all.
 
Last edited:
chordz said:
"Every one on AAS (ONLY with injectibles) MUST consider taking cholestrol medicines"

So anyone on HRT must be on Cholesterol meds right? Wrong. Orals are much worse, especially non aromatizing. Moserate doses of test do not influence levels much at all.


well while your right in this regard but in another regard test CAN and DOES affect alot of peoples BP which can also lead to heart problems....and perscribed HRT doses would NEVER be considered moderate doses of test, at least legally or within the scope of HRT (i am aware for a price doctors can be bought).........
 
Is that true about the IGF-1 causing Heart Disease or is that just a bunch of bullshit? I heard too many good things about IGF-1.


AristotleBC said:
Anyone with any sense would have said:

"IGF-1 ***CAN*** cause blah blah..."

I have no idea if he's right but his phrasing is definitely wrong.
 
i think igf can cause cell growth, matter of fact we know and if u have a cancerous cell or cells it can cause it to grow so i guess it is a roll of the dice , i wont do igf cuz i dip tobacco and im scared if i did have something it woul cause it to be worse, but than again i think aas cause cells to grow too but..... maybe someone else can chime in on this
 
I had a Heart attack Aug 30 2004 got life flighted and all that good trash. I got lucky. So many variables go into this shit its unreal. I was not on a cycle and have always don’t mild cycles until Jun of that summer I was going for it all in a power lifting competition. I was on some pretty heavy amounts. But I do not think that hurt me at all.

When I had my heart attack I had been off the sauce for 2 months and was on PCT still. Only Rec drugs I did was Pot and I can count the amount of times I did that on my hands. I did like my beer though. When I was in the hospital they did anjio jet to suck a blood clot out of my right main coronary artery. They kept me for a week to try and figure out why a guy my age would have a clot the size I did. They told me if it would have gone into my heart I would not have known what hit me.

They kept asking me if I was on coke. I must have told them 10x I had never touched the shit. They said my blood work was good. I did have some plaque in my arteries but nothing to bad. It was 30% and for my age it’s not all that uncommon. Only thing that was bad was my HDL. I had none and that was the same as having bad chol.

Soon as I told them I did steroids before some of the docs kind of blamed it and I demanded to know why they said that. They never even ask what kind and how much. I said for all I know the test helped strengthen my heart and I want do know why you think this.

They decided to keep me for a week and run more test. I had good insurance at the time. Thank god. There presumption was I busted a plaque in my artery and that is what the clot formed on.

I did tons and tons of research and came up with my own opinion of what happened. I was a work aholic. I would get up at 5am 3x a week and run a 14min 2 mile with my best friend and would lift weights 5x a week. I am talking balls to the wall lifting. Very heavy weights and very high intensity. Then I would work in the sun all day and come home and work a small home computer business. I would only get 3-4 hours sleep a day. Lots of stress also. Problems with my wife and girls after me blah blah

Anyway Stress probably had something to do with it and this:

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-130.shtml

My hormones where out of wake and I was on clomid and HCG. Most are fine on the stuff but I think the Estrogen was the cause of my heart attack.

I also bel when it’s your time it’s your time so no need to go through life worrying about everything. Shit happens. I have a clean bill of health now but after having a heart attack at my age depression set in to 90% of people.

Good news is my heart is still stronger than most my age. But after you have one your are more susceptible to more. I have not lifted steady since then and I can still warm up and get under 315 and blow it up and do not even lift. One of these days I will get back at it. I have good genetics for lifting but bad genes for my ticker I guess. Can’t have it all.
 
Can taking steroids directly cause a heart attack ? No. The seroids themselves cannot give you a heart attack directly - they are NOT coke and you can't OD on AS.

I would like everyone to read over the following:
An overdose of ... Tylenol? It's a leading cause of liver poisonings
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/253533_painkiller27.html?source=mypi

aspirin poisoning
"In adults, moderate to severe toxicity may occur after taking 50 x 300 mg tablets."
In kids, it could kill!
http://www.gpnotebook.co.uk/cache/101056544.htm

Painkiller overdose unravelled
There are an estimated 70,000 cases of intentional paracetamol overdose in the UK each year, and more than 350 deaths.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1010024.stm
 
High Intensity v. Gear

Comments on the general concept of post-mortem studies in this area:


I remember talking with Pax Beale back in the early nineties shortly after he had all his heart problems.

One thing that still stands out for me is that he said his docs had no idea what he meant by "lifting weights". So he actually brought them to the gym to monitor him working out, and they about flipped: during intense lifting, his blood pressure went off the charts, heart rate maxxed out, and the docs were like "Whoaaa. You can't be serious that you exert yourself like this, you're going to blow up your heart again."

I've got to think that when we lift with max intensity, we put incredible stress on the cardio-pulmonary system. Now, think about gear use: as everybody who knows their stuff will tell the beginner, you work out harder when "on" - higher intensity, higher maxes...this is all going to raise the stress level on the cardio-pulmonary system. It seems to me that any weaknesses caused by genetics/lifestyle in this system are going to be magnified, and cause a problem sooner.

I don't think that any post-mortem study is going to be able to sort out damage done by trainining with such high intensity v. damage done by gear use alone.


Comments on Case 2

Fresh injection site, right?

Could it be that we hit a vein, injected 2.5cc's directly into the bloodstream, and experienced some cardiac arrest from that?

Note: I don't know PM procedure well enough to know if this has been ruled out. If so, please point that out to me in the writeup, as I'd like to learn.
 
Re: High Intensity v. Gear

phatrr said:


One thing that still stands out for me is that he said his docs had no idea what he meant by "lifting weights". So he actually brought them to the gym to monitor him working out, and they about flipped: during intense lifting, his blood pressure went off the charts, heart rate maxxed out, and the docs were like "Whoaaa. You can't be serious that you exert yourself like this, you're going to blow up your heart again."

I've got to think that when we lift with max intensity, we put incredible stress on the cardio-pulmonary system. Now, think about gear use: as everybody who knows their stuff will tell the beginner, you work out harder when "on" - higher intensity, higher maxes...this is all going to raise the stress level on the cardio-pulmonary system. It seems to me that any weaknesses caused by genetics/lifestyle in this system are going to be magnified, and cause a problem sooner.


that's interesting shit. Both guys died within a few hours of a workout too.

Also they were both on deca. Considering that it's 2.4 times more potent than test, people usually take higher relative doses of it than test. Maybe that worsened a bad situation.
 
boops said:
well while your right in this regard but in another regard test CAN and DOES affect alot of peoples BP which can also lead to heart problems....and perscribed HRT doses would NEVER be considered moderate doses of test, at least legally or within the scope of HRT (i am aware for a price doctors can be bought).........

Whatever I wrote in my original post about cholesterol is based on the the state of the art in the latest medical research. Actually most people NOT ON AAS OR HRT would benefit from cholesterol medicines.
You disagree with it, too bad.

The reason I mention only injectables is because orals can cause liver damage. Cholesterol lowering medicines can also cause liver damage. So if you take orals, you shouldn't take cholesterol medicines without a physician's supervision.

There is no 'ODing' on AAS with a single dose, as happens with recreational drugs.
But no one knows what can happen in some people when very high doses are used. The safety of such doses have never been tested.
By very high doses, I mean 1 gm or more per week for more than a few weeks.

The maximum dose of Tyelenol is 4 grams a day. Taking more than that causes liver damage and other problems in many people. Why should AAS be any exception? Why do you want to put your head in the sand?

As for me, I don't want to damage my body either from taking too much Tyelenol or too much AAS.
 
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