half way through 1st cycle and looking to switch it up

[Phantom001]

stats
37 yrs old
test level at 396 prior to start but like an idiot I only had test panel done, will not make that mistake again
6"1
started cycle at 230
20 ish BF
running test p only ED 100mg since 04/19/2013 for 8 weeks
back in the gym 40 days prior to start of cycle coming off no lifting prior to that due to shoulder injury so just cardio, resistance training and range of motion exercises for almost 3 yrs, had to wait 9 months after accident to just start light rehab!
taking 10 pumps of forma stanzol 2x per day through the cycle
1000 mg of vitex
200 mg milk thistle

Diet is shit I am ashamed to say, need more greens, cut out all processed foods, eating chicken, turkey, oatmeal, egg whites, white rice, mash tatos once per week
4 scoops of muscle milk per day, 2 gallons of water per day, every kind of fruit known to man in the form of smoothies with greek yogurt mixed with oj not milk, and only drink skim milk and no alcohol during cycle or during PCT

Planned PCT
HCGenerate
Unleashed
Post cycle
Exemestane 25 mcg ED
Vitex 1000 mg ED
Forma Stanzol

Before I ask my question please read the following about vitex as I know there is much debate about it.

"Vitex is an LH increasing agent. Clomid is
also. Vitex (unlike Clomid) seems to
decrease prolactin levels (this is a good
thing in bb'ers for sure as increases in
prolactin can lead to a rare type of
gyno...probably/posibly the gyno the occassional trenbolone user experiences but
I am speculating here for sure).

Go get a physiology text and see what LH
does in men and women (not the same thing,
that is for sure).

In a nutshell, LH is the hormone that
regulate testosterone secretion in men.
Vitex increases LH. Do the math. Now
FSH *may* increase testosterone levels in
men by inducing maturation of the Leydig
cells in your nuts and Vitex does decrease
FSH. But fuck, it's a trade off I would
do for sure, because while FSH *may* help
a little, LH is the big kehuna here without
*ANY* doubts at all!!!

Also prolactin tends to inhibit both LH and
FSH so if you ace the prolactin, you get
more LH and FSH. Vitex does this quite
well. Prolactin can also directly inhibit
spermatogenesis so Vitex is probabky a help there too.

I am guessing that Vitex will have an effect
of a hybrid between HCG and Clomid. HCG
has almost no FSH type effect and a lot of
LH effect.

So Vitex, even though it is known as a female's
herb, has a profound effect in men.

Let's talk about women and why they would
use Vitex.

Estrogen (in women) works in a *POSITIVE*
feedback loop to increase LH. LOWER ESTROGEN = MORE LH!!! LH is what causes follicle maturation and ovulation to occur (along with FSH).

Progesterone is primarily made in the corpus
luteum of the follicle (in the ovary during
the "luteal phase" of the menstrual cycle).

So if you give a woman Vitex, LH increases
which will stimulate the Graffian follicle
to maturity and increase progesterone.

Men don't have ovaries and thus, Vitex won't
increase progesterone in men for this reason.

Estrogens are also produced in the ovaries.
LH (and FSH more so) will also effect this.

Men don't have ovaries.

Vitex will not increase estrogen in men unless
the extra testosterone secreted by using
Vitex leads to more aromatization into
estrogens.

Anovulatory women can sometimes benefit from
Vitex for the same reason they do with Clomid
or HCG (or HMG). Clomid is better than Vitex
(in theory) for infertile women because it
acts as an anti-estrogen at the pituitary
and will cause FSH levels to rise allowing for
maturation of the ova (you need both FSH and
LH for optimal fertility...Vitex doesn't
work optimally but it does help in something
like 70% of the cases).

Just as a heads up, LH seems to regulate
the conversion of cholesterol to pregnenolone
and FSH seems to regulate THE AROMATIZATION
of androgens to estrogens in the follicle.

Additionally...as estrogen levels rise, so
does FSH while LH decreases. As estrogen
levels drop, FSH decreases and LH increases.

This might explain why Vitex inhibits FSH. ' end quote, people always throw that monk stuff up about it, but that was very low doses made into monk pepper, men should be around 800-1000 mg ED to see the affects that it can bring, women taking it usually run 20-200mg ed.

I am in the gym 5 days a week with sat sun off for 1 hr min with 10-15 of that being cardio. I have dropped down to 223 after the first week but now back up to 227 and seeing strength gains. I was going to run CLEN just for the last 2 weeks and then go off it completely. I have seen no sides, no gyno, wood still good, loads still good, feel like a champ just alittle trouble sleeping more than 7 hours in a row.

I was planning on starting the HCGenerate 2 weeks prior to last pin, starting unleashed next week, and to be safe start 12.5 mg of Exemestane next week ED and jump up to 25mg ed on PCT.

My guy told me to stay away from CLEN and got me oral winny tabs and told me to run that for the last 5.5 weeks and throw the CLEN out. I am strongly considering this and to be safe I just ordered N2guard and will start taking that if I start the winny and then just cut out the milk thistle I am taking now since its covered in N2guard.

Is that too much for a 1st cycle just getting back into lifting, given I have been exercising just not pushin weight and right now I feel great and have no sides or ill effects, I really want to get my BF lower and I know diet is the key. I am more concerned about adding too much strength and doing lig/tendon damage but I believe I can control that by telling myself when I hit a personal best not to exceed that in weight.

So adding CLEN vs. winny is the question and do you feel my PCT I have for test p would still be enough if I added either one of those. I feel it is after all the reading I have done but I value the opinions of people that have been there and done it too.

 

[Phantom001]

forgot to add one more thing I am taking
Finpecia- (DHT blocker for hair loss, was on it prior to for baldness) 10 mg per day no off time

 

[LoveSnatches]

And your first cycle you are pinning every day and doing 700mg of test a week?!!? 350mg a week is plenty for a first cycle. Switch to EOD injections.

So you are using all otc products for PCT?

I know this forum recommends all the stuff you can buy at mrsupps and stuff or whatever - but bro you need real HCG and Clomid.

Save your money on the HCGenerate and just get real HCG. Unleashed and Post cycle while good are very expensive.

I'd just get HCG and Clomid and call it a day.

You do realize your AI dose is 4-8x what it should be right?
You should run it on cycle at 12.5mg EOD and post cycle 6.25mg EOD.

If you are having estrogen sides then you can do ED

Don't add Clen or Winny for your goals. If you just had an injury - try NPP instead of Winny. Diet and training will dictate your BF loss, not gear. Its stupid how often people come on here thinking I'll add in Clen or Winny because I could lose some extra fat. If you are worried about lig/tendon damage these two are very counterproductive to your goals.

 

[Phantom001]

thanks for the feedback, I based my doses off of what I have researched all over the forums. I understand your thought about how people think clen or winny is the answer to dropping fat and I openly admit that diet is HUGE factor in bf, but it is still hard to deny the affects either of those compounds have on body fat to some extent. I was thinking of blast HCG right at the end but the otc stuff(which i had a thread in the beginning on the PCT forum) I was considering what you recommended but since I have no sides whatsoever(I really am a believer in vitex) I thought based on a great pct sticky that my own concern was kick starting natural production and HCG looks like at it does is aid size growth and after discontinued it does nothing for the natural production. I saw some feedback on winny being hard on joints and drying them out but I seen alot of counterpoint to that as well and my shoulder injury was a gun shot to the upper chest right below the left shoulder, a solid meat would but another 1/2 inch and it would of been full blown shoulder replacement and I rehab extremely well and really took my time.

I am curious to your suggestion about my dose of Aromasin(Exemestane not OTC, just about every where I read had that suggested dose or higher but you make a great point that if I am not seeing any sides then I may not need that much.

Thanks again for trying to drop some knowledge on me, Im just not sure about the PCT recommends but they are time tested right.

 

[Phantom001]

ok, I just started the winny with test p and no clen based on all the research. I am peeling back the test p to 1cc EOD and the winny will be 3 tabs per day(30mg), started unleashed and hcgenerate today as well and will add n2guard as soon as it gets here next week.

After reading more on Exemestane I am going with the above recommended dose of 12.5mg EOD to error on the side of caution and it stated it does help with any water weight as well, just do not want to reduce my E2 too much.