getting a post secondary education

[mattcanning99]

would like to hear the boards views on this.

 

[vinylgroover]

Education is the most important thing in life (besides your health). If you have the chance to study further, take it, some would kill just for a high school education.

It will open up your mind, eyes and ears much more than you already think.

 

[Night Fly]

Go for it. Some people are up for it, and some people aren't. If you feel that you want to learn more or just get some experience in another area, then you should! It never hurts to expand your horizons!

 

[mattcanning99]

Education is the most important thing in life (besides your health). If you have the chance to study further, take it, some would kill just for a high school education.

It will open up your mind, eyes and ears much more than you already think.

why is this? because "society says" it is what we are supposed to do in our brainwashed culture? i for one am extremely unhappy wasting my time in university, when i am held back from pursuing things i would enjoy (and make more money with) if i was not in school. some of the greatest people ive heard about did not get formally educated, they had two things, a plan, and ambition, that's all you need.

what is the point of learning with no intrinsic interest? that's right, there isnt one.

 

[Night Fly]

why is this? because "society says" it is what we are supposed to do in our brainwashed culture? i for one am extremely unhappy wasting my time in university, when i am held back from pursuing things i would enjoy (and make more money with) if i was not in school. some of the greatest people ive heard about did not get formally educated, they had two things, a plan, and ambition, that's all you need.

what is the point of learning with no intrinsic interest? that's right, there isnt one.

A lot of people just enjoy going to school and learning new things...no matter what age they are. They don't do it because "society" says they should. It is the people who do it for THOSE reasons that shouldn't be doing it.

Some people aren't meant for school and some people are...but sadly enough...you can make a better living with a degree nowadays...that is...depending upon how you would like to live!

 

[vinylgroover]

I never said an education will make you rich and famous. Education is about learning. If you then use those tools to become rich and famous, good for you.

You can make better money being a whore than almost anything else, but i think you'll find that most would trade their lifestyle for a decent education and job.

If you don't enjoy it then get out, but like me, i took it for granted when i was at uni, and thought, why the hell am i here. Five years later, i look back and think, gee i'm glad i stuck it out.

 

[naturally anabolic]

if you wish to survive comfortably in this world you have two choices after highschool, college of some sort or military...i think it has kinda gotten to the point where just a highschool education is not enough anymore and you need more and more creditials to offer to just survive these days....

 

[Warik]

This all depends on what exactly you're asking...

You want a post secondary education?

Read a book.
Go to a website.
Talk to someone successful.
Get a job working closely with the management.

You want proof that you got a post secondary "education?"

Go to college.

Quite frankly, you will learn the same, if not MORE, in the same amount of time, if not LESS, by simply studying on your own or getting a job. I've learned more in the past 2 years working through EXPERIENCE than I have in the past 2 years going to college. When I took a database management course, I frequently started snoozing in class beacuse my mental response to everything the teacher said was "I already know this shit." Does this mean that I know all there is to know about database management? Hell no. It means that the education I received at the University paled in comparison to the experience I had already acquired in a short period of time. And no, I'm not working for some huge corporation with a database team of 10 people. I work for a small travel agency and part of my job description is tinkering with our database. Hmm... get paid to learn about databases or pay hundreds to be taught what I already know...? Wow, tough decision.

Let's even think about this further.

I take 5 classes a semester, each class is about 2.5 hours a week. 5 x 2.5 = 12.5hrs a week. Times 16 weeks = 200 hours - that's not including commute to and from school, or homework time, mind you. Add my tuition money on top of that and what do you have? A big waste of time and money. I could have spent those 200 hours working and made myself an extra 3,000 or 4,000 bucks, plus learned a shitload more.

If you do decide to continue in your university, do it the way I do it by following these simple rules.

1) Your goal is to learn, not get good grades.
2) Part of learning is filtering out bullshit.
3) Part of not getting good grades is getting good enough grades to pass.
4) Getting a few more minutes sleep or watching your favorite television program takes precedence over going to class.

What does this tell you? Learn the important stuff, ignore the bullshit, and just do good enough to pass - and never overestimate the importance of going to class.

By following these simple rules, I'm looking at a 3.7GPA and only 30 credits remaining till I get my "BS". (Bachelor of Science, or something else? You decide.)

-Warik

 

[mattcanning99]

you have two choices after highschool, college of some sort or military

so let me consider my options...

i could go through university with no intrinsic interest whatsoever, learn how to become a math teacher (something i could do better than most math teachers already without the education) become a teacher, make a fairly crappy wage relatively, and retire at 55 with full pension.

option B

join regular force army, with a higher salary and all living expenses covered and retire at 39 with full pension, without getting a degree.

hmm...

 

[vinylgroover]

Are you looking for an argument or advice?

If you've already made up your mind, which it sounds you have, then why the hell did you ask for advice in the first place, moron.

You just sound like another loser who doesn't know what to do with himself so you slag everything. Typical cynic.

 

[Night Fly]

I was going to say that it had sounded as if he made up his mind already also. I actually think that he is in some kind of military...am I right?

 

[mattcanning99]

Are you looking for an argument or advice?

If you've already made up your mind, which it sounds you have, then why the hell did you ask for advice in the first place, moron.

You just sound like another loser who doesn't know what to do with himself so you slag everything. Typical cynic.

no, i just wanted to see if brainwashed people (such as yourself) would push school and say it is the way to go. now Warik's reply, on the other hand, put common sense over society's morals, which it turns out, you represent.

have you ever heard about learning for the sake of interest and not because you're told?

also, this thread was not supposed to be about me. im going to stay in school just as a back up basically, i dont like it, nor do i need it. i just wanted to see how many people would give the response you did, compared to how few will give one like Warik.

 

[vinylgroover]

Where in which post did i mention anything about what 'society' expects.

What warik said makes some sense, but it's all about what you expect out of education. Warik says he learned much more on the job than he did at uni....much more about what.

That's precisely the point. When working, your learning is focussed because you are learning alot about things specifically related to your job. In uni, your education is far more broad, and you are learning a liitle about alot of things.

What about learning how to source information, prepare assignments, work to deadlines, perform under pressure etc. Aren't these things that you learn at Uni that will help you in any job you get. It's not just the numbers and facts that get thrown at you that are useful.

Think about it!

 

[mattcanning99]

Education is the most important thing in life (besides your health).

maybe im going into too much over this, i'll just leave it at: i don't agree with this statement.

where would wayne gretzsky be today if his parents had made him go to school and said it was in his best interest.

i just wanted to see how many people on the board believe it is necessary to be happy in life.

 

[buddy28]

unless ur incrediably smart, have a surefire business idea, or ur into programming (like warik), stay in school.

Wariks subjective analysis of the detractors of a post secondary education are more discpline specific then anything. hell, 75% of the computer geeks out there earning top dollar dropped out, or never went to college. Programming, as a hobby, is usally practised outside of university. Thus, reducing the need to take it in school.

Name one other respected profession requiring a significant knowledge base( not sales) , in which u can get a job without a University diploma.... Nothing. Computers. Thats it. All business jobs require an undergrad. You can work for the small shit firms, but thats not gonna take u too far.

Society says u need a degree, because that degreee certifies your competency in your selected discpline of study as assessed by objective third party raters (who are often quite smart).

Im starting my own business, and probably couldnt have done so at this age unless I had gone to university.

 

[vinylgroover]

He'd be a great hockey player with an education.

How many Wayne Gretzky's are there in the world?

Grow up a bit

 

[Warik]

What warik said makes some sense, but it's all about what you expect out of education. Warik says he learned much more on the job than he did at uni....much more about what.

Uhh... much more about the major I'm "studying" at college, maybe? If I were studying Computer Science at college and I worked at fucking McDonalds, then my post really wouldn't have made much sense, would it? Of course, I don't think Logic is a required course at Universities anymore, hence the reason you may not have picked that up.

Let me break it down for you.

I'm majoring in Computer Science.

I'm majoring in Computer Science because that, presumably, will allow me to get a well-paying job as a computer programmer.

I'm already working somewhere as a Computer Programmer.

I've learned more about Computer Science working as a Computer Programmer than I have attending the University. In fact, a great deal of the stuff I learned about programming I learned before ever getting a job.

"much more about what" - I don't know wtf you were thinking when you wrote that.

What about learning how to source information, prepare assignments, work to deadlines, perform under pressure etc

How to source information

Wrong. Ever take a test? All of them closed book and closed notes, eh? Name one job where your superior will forbid you from using reference material to solve a problem.

Prepare assignments

School assignments have a strict set of criteria that is explicitly stated and must be met. Real life jobs have the same. What is there to learn besides simple reading skills which were already taught in elementary school?

Work to deadlines

Project is due on day X. Finish it before then. What's there to learn? I learned how to tell time and use the calendar in Kindergarten. Where the hell did you go to school?

Perform under pressure

You mean you've never had any pressure in your life aside from school? That doesn't sound like a very eventful life.

If school were as important as you claim it to be, then school would have to provide you with skills or knowledge that you could not obtain elsewhere in a similar amount of time. I can prove this is false for ANY example you give me.

College is an unnecessary joke with an expensive punchline.

-Warik

 

[mattcanning99]

well...once again this thread wasnt about me, but anyway, i do own a website which is bringing me in a good amount of income because im a programmer (like warik), secondly, i would make more money at the army and be happier than i would be with an education.

for me, education drags me down and is worse in the long term. that's the reality of my situation...some people, however, need to be schooled.

what im honestly really sick of is hearing people say that school is for everyone. because it isn't...wayne gretzky being only one such example.

get the idea?

 

[Warik]

Name one other respected profession requiring a significant knowledge base( not sales) , in which u can get a job without a University diploma

Have you yet to see the point here?

The point here is the fact that college degrees for most professions are unnecessary. That is, they should NOT be necessary.

Should you need a degree to be a math teacher? An English teacher? A social studies teacher? ANY kind of teacher? No.

A computer programmer/engineer? No.

A chemist? No.

A philosopher? (rofl) No.

Of course, there are some professions that would require secondary education OR proof of equivalent (i.e. doctor or lawyer). If you can walk into a medical office with no college whatsoever and pass some kind of examination, then I don't see why you should not be hired as a doctor. Why waste 8-10 years of your life and hundreds of thousands of dollars when you have all the skills necessary now?

Ahh... college... a system designed to compensate for human deficiencies.

-Warik

 

[vinylgroover]

The problem is that losers like you two take evrything in life, along with education for granted.

The single most important factor which brings about social inequality in society is acess/or lack thereof to education. You both need to get real and be thankful you've had the chance to do something that millions of kids the world over would love to do.

Wankers

 

[mattcanning99]

ok, admittedly im a little bitter, for a few reasons, not all of which i will get into.

i know that i could have started teaching high school math in september, at 19 years old, and done a better job than teachers i know who had masters degrees in the subject. will learning make me a better high school math teacher when i graduate? hell no, it's the biggest waste of life imaginable.

that may be the largest source of my bitterness.

 

[Zirakzigil]

If you can walk into a medical office with no college whatsoever and pass some kind of examination, then I don't see why you should not be hired as a doctor.

Because people still study to the test, same as the SATs.

You want a doctor who has years of experience in a wide range of fields, NOT a doctor who studied to the test.

But, I agree. There should be two classes of certified physicians - those with education and those without. Let the patients choose who to see.

 

[Warik]

The problem is that losers like you two take evrything in life, along with education for granted.

I take nothing for granted. This is a common excuse used by people to claim one is showing ingratitude.

I'm an intelligent man with many useful abilities and I wish to use these abilities to begin my professional life and build a family. I can't do so for another year or two, however, because I'm wasting time having these abilities re-taught to me along with other abilities that will be of no use. How is that taking anything for granted?

The single most important factor which brings about social inequality in society is acess/or lack thereof to education.

I agree. I have an education. Why are you bitching at me? Go bitch at the uneducated.

You both need to get real and be thankful you've had the chance to do something that millions of kids the world over would love to do.

Who says I'm not thankful? Your argument has no logical foundation to stand on. Let me take a quick moment to use my education I "take for granted" to form an analogy to make you look like a fool.

Let's say you're a fish.

You're sitting in a frying pan.

You're pissed about the fact that you're sitting in a frying pan.

Lo' and behold, vinylgroover comes by, insults you, and tells you that you take being in the frying pan for granted. He tells you that there are millions of fish all over the world who are sitting in the fire and wish they would be in the frying pan.

Now tell me, do you really want to be in the fucking frying pan?

Wankers

Proof that education is paramount.

-Warik

 

[Warik]

You want a doctor who has years of experience in a wide range of fields, NOT a doctor who studied to the test.

College != Experience.

Let's say you and I want to be doctors. You're 30 years old and went to med school. I'm 20 years old and studied as much as I could about practicing medicine. We go to a hospital that has this kind of "test" as a requirement. We both pass. What's the difference between you and me?

You went to med school for 10 years and I studied for the test. We have the same knowledge. More importantly, we have the same experience (NONE WHATSOEVER).

Isn't the point of college to learn something, and the point of working to gain more experience about something? Why do you think that people who say "I have 4 years experience" on a resume talking about college never get a job?

But, I agree. There should be two classes of certified physicians - those with education and those without. Let the patients choose who to see.

Hey, personally, if there were some kind of data available to show a doctor's performance since his first day of practice and comments that previous patients have made about him, I wouldn't hesitate to take the "uneducated" doctor if he showed a better track record.

The first year or two on the job, it's about your education.

After that, no one gives a damn where you went to school. They ALL want to know what you've done since then.

-Warik

 

[Zirakzigil]

Warik, you're educated? Your analogy was horrible. The frying pan and the fire are both fatal to the same degree. Not having the opportunity to be educated and HAVING to be educated to get a certain job are not in the same league at all.

Nice try, though - I mean that.

 

[vinylgroover]

Warik,

My comments were primarily aimed at Matts reply to my comment that 'happiness' is more important than education.

WTF does that mean? Go to India or Bangladesh or any undeveloped country for that matter and see kids working their asses off in sweat shops for $1 a month and then come and tell me education is not important.

That's why i get pissed off.

 

[buddy28]

Have you yet to see the point here?

The point here is the fact that college degrees for most professions are unnecessary. That is, they should NOT be necessary.

Should you need a degree to be a math teacher? An English teacher? A social studies teacher? ANY kind of teacher? No.

A computer programmer/engineer? No.

A chemist? No.

Did you read my whole post brightass???

You dont understand how normal employment works, do you? Gaining employment for jobs other than computer programming, or sales, require the applicant to *demonstrate* a sufficent level of problem solving, analyitical, and writing skills, in addition to a satisfactory level of knowledge associated with the position being applied for.

Because we dont live in a society where everyone knows everyone else, the method used to certify the possession of the required knowledge base and analytical skills is a degree. SURPRISE!!!! Makes sense, doesnt it?

Chemist not needing a degree. Hmmm......you think your smarter then the CEOs of Merke Fizer? Right.....

 

[Warik]

Not having the opportunity to be educated and HAVING to be educated to get a certain job are not in the same league at all.

No, they're not, but that's not the message I am attempting to convey to you.

There is a difference between not having the opportunity to be educated, and not having the opportunity to get an education.

Being educated = going to school.
Getting an education = learning.

If someone can't afford a few thousand dollars a year to go to college, does that mean he can't get an education? No, it doesn't.

Library
Internet
Friends
Etc.

Being in the frying pan refers to being able to go to college to "get educated," but being reluctant to do so because it is not necessary for one's education. Being in the fryer is not being able to be educated at all.

Both cases are NOT fatal to the same degree.

-Warik

 

[mattcanning99]

well, im not going to refer to specific situations, just my own, and maybe a select few others.

im just saying education is uncessary for me...ok, maybe that is just my opinion.

let's pretend i was placed in a high school and allowed to teach a class grade 12 math and did a great job, and continued to do so.

tell me how 4 years or more of post secondary education would be necessary in that case? especially in the circumstance im not interested and also unhappy with it...that's how i see it, but i can only speak for myself. as i said, many people need to be schooled, and education obviously has it's benefits. apparently, under the UN, i believe education is a right, so why does it cost so much

im getting an education because the man is saying i need a piece of paper to do a job i could have done the day after i finished my last high school math class. this is pointless. there is no arguing that.

but i guess that piece of paper makes things more objective than hiring people who dont need to be schooled...you never know who needs it and who doesn't.

 

[Warik]

My comments were primarily aimed at Matts reply to my comment that 'happiness' is more important than education.

WTF does that mean? Go to India or Bangladesh or any undeveloped country for that matter and see kids working their asses off in sweat shops for $1 a month and then come and tell me education is not important.

vinylgroover,

Are those kids in India or Bangladesh happy? No.

Go talk to the typical rapper or professional athlete. Chances are they are as dumb as rocks and perfectly happy "singing" their garbage or playing a game for a living. Proof that being happy is more important than being smart.

-Warik

 

[Lao Tzu]

A degree is necessary to get a job. however, you can always go through a diploma mill (if they still exist) and get a fake, but real sounding B.S., Ph.D. or M.A..

I enjoy college myself. I learn better when i have a reason to learn.

when did you start studying math. i thought you were pre-med (i may have been thinking of someone else).

 

[mattcanning99]

A degree is necessary to get a job. however, you can always go through a diploma mill (if they still exist) and get a fake, but real sounding B.S., Ph.D. or M.A..

I enjoy college myself. I learn better when i have a reason to learn.

when did you start studying math. i thought you were pre-med (i may have been thinking of someone else).

nope...math...i've lost my intrinsic interest tho...maybe my heart will come back into it soon, you never know

 

[buddy28]

Warik

the point vinlygroover is trying to make is that not ALL people can learn as easily as you.

Therefore, your conclusion that all college or post secondary education is a waste of time is a fallacy since most students require a personal instructor in addition to book learning.

College, or university, in my opinion is a great experience. U get personal instruction, ur immersed and surrounded by persons taking and teaching your selected discpline. Its a great place to learn.

U seem to be alittle put off because it costly. Thats a caveat of the United States education system, not post secondary institutions

 

[Warik]

Did you read my whole post brightass???

You dont understand how normal employment works, do you? Gaining employment for jobs other than computer programming, or sales, require the applicant to *demonstrate* a sufficent level of problem solving, analyitical, and writing skills, in addition to a satisfactory level of knowledge associated with the position being applied for.

Because we dont live in a society where everyone knows everyone else, the method used to certify the possession of the required knowledge base and analytical skills is a degree. SURPRISE!!!! Makes sense, doesnt it?

Did YOU read MY post? I AM NOT SPEAKING OF THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE JOB MARKET AS IT IS TODAY. What is so difficult to understand?

Do you need a college degree to be a chemist? By the "rules" governing the chemistry field, YES.

Do you need a college degree to be a teacher? By the "rules" governing the teaching field, YES.

But, do you "NEED" a degree to do these jobs? The answer is NO.

If I were to walk into an 6th grade classroom right now and start teaching algebra, would I be COMPLETELY unable to succeed in doing so unless I had a piece of paper that said "Warik sat in a chair for 4 years and listened to people talk about math?" Seeing as how my math knowledge vastly exceeds that which is taught in a 6th grade classroom, the answer is no. I would not be unable to succeed. On the contrary, I'd easily be able to do the job.

If you can't understand the difference between "need" in terms of requirements to get a job and "need" in terms of requirements to DO the job, then perhaps a few semesters of college may not do you any harm.

Chemist not needing a degree. Hmmm......you think your smarter then the CEOs of Merke Fizer? Right.....

Seeing as how I'm not a chemist, nor have I had more than a basic education in chemistry, no, I'm not smarter than the CEOs, nor do I claim to be. The real question to ask is, are those CEOs so smart because they went to college for a few years, or are they so smart because they busted their asses for the years following to get where they are today? By your logic, a person fresh out of college with a chemistry degree is just as smart as those CEOs.

Hell, by your logic, that punk dropout Bill Gates is just a stupid little kid compared to my professor. My professor went to college!

-Warik

 

[BaBa-BooeY]

Hell, by your logic, that punk dropout Bill Gates is just a stupid little kid compared to my professor. My professor went to college!

-Warik

 

[Warik]

the point vinlygroover is trying to make is that not ALL people can learn as easily as you.

This I do not dispute. I can think of several examples of the top of my head that make your claim valid.

However, if my ability to learn outside of the college environment is equal to or greater than another person's ability to learn inside the college environment, why am I required to suffer through the inefficient teaching methods of the University system?

If you're running a race and are the fastest runner on the track, do you wait for everyone else to catch up before crossing the finish line?

Therefore, your conclusion that all college or post secondary education is a waste of time is a fallacy

My conclusion is that all college or post secondary education is a waste of time for me and people like me. I challenge you to prove that is a fallacy.

College, or university, in my opinion is a great experience. U get personal instruction, ur immersed and surrounded by persons taking and teaching your selected discpline. Its a great place to learn.

It's too distracting for my tastes. Having so many people in the same room is not a good learning environment. Many professors lack sufficient teaching skill. I learn better in a comfortable reclining chair with my feet on the desk and a keyboard in my lap looking at websites and writing code. My recent Data Structures course experience has been writing programs to perform various sorting algorithms, and taking a test that requires me to create a binary search tree out of the months of the year. I already know how sorting algorithms work, and if I forget, they are available everywhere - why do I need to waste my time writing them again? I already know how to make a binary search tree. Why do I have to prove it to the professor?

U seem to be alittle put off because it costly.

Nope. My views have nothing to do with the price tag. My college education is totally free - books included. Plus I get an extra $750-$1,000 per semester tax free to go straight into my pocket. Ahhh... academic scholarships - without them, whites would never get free shit.

I'd be glad to discuss this more at length tomorrow, but I must go to sleep, as I have class at 9:30am. Imagine all of the important things I could get done now if I didn't have to go to sleep to wake up for that wasteful shit.

-Warik

 

[buddy28]

The point here is the fact that college degrees for most professions are unnecessary. That is, they should NOT be necessary.

Should you need a degree to be a math teacher? An English teacher? A social studies teacher? ANY kind of teacher? No.

They SHOULD be necessary in order to ascertain the applicants compentency for the applied position.

Yes, in a perfect world, no one should need a degree. But you fail to realise we dont live in a perfect world.

Warik, you dont even know what the fuck your talking about when it comes to logic. In my post, as I explicity stated, degrees are a highly usefull tool for an employer to verify the applicants compentecy in his selected feild of study.

OF COURSE a degree doesnt imply ultimate intelligence. OF COURSE the absence of a degree doesnt affirm a lack of intelligence. But what it does do, and does well, is confirm to future employers a demonstrated compentancy in the selected feild of study + basic analyitical and problem solving skills using an objective, qualified, third party rater.

Specilization of labor was created because its more efficent for one person to do one thing, then 10 different things. Universities were created, and sustained by this very princible. People REALISE that going to a university, and yes, paying the money for enrollment, is far superior option then everyone not going to university and employers having to make a comprehensive exam testing everything from basic knowledge to problem solving skills to written and oral articulation and expression --- specialized for every fucking job position out there.

Gets alittle inefficent. y are u even arguing this??

 

[vinylgroover]

Warik,

You are a first class idiot.

Getting an education is not about being 'smart' as you put it. What does having an education have to do with being smart. An education merely gives people the opportunity to further themselves and improve their plight in life so they don't have to work in dingy sweat shops or beg or whatever else.

How do you know a rapper or professional athlete is dumb as shit?

It's not about being smart it's about learning and improving one's opportunities in life (not just getting a job).

Wake up to yourself, for your own sake

 

[Zirakzigil]

BTW, Warik's entire premise is flawed. It is possible to get high-end jobs without a degree, and for the truly intelligent, it's extremely easy (c.f. a guy I work with who graduated high school at 16 and went directly to work for IBM). I must conclude that if Warik can't do this, he's not quite as intelligent as he thinks he is. Seriously Warik, go apply at some software companies - if you don't want to waste your time frittering away at finding isomorphisms, don't. You'll get a lower entry wage, but by the time you would have graduated from college, you'll have been working for a few years and you'll be making a very similar if not higher amount, especially since you'll do such great work because of your intelligence.

 

[buddy28]

However, if my ability to learn outside of the college environment is equal to or greater than another person's ability to learn inside the college environment, why am I required to suffer through the inefficient teaching methods of the University system?

Dont go to class. If your as smart as you think you are, you should be able to skip class and show up for exams. Thats what i did.

My conclusion is that all college or post secondary education is a waste of time for me and people like me. I challenge you to prove that is a fallacy.

Im not arguing college is a waste of time for extremely gifted people. I have no proof ur extremely gifted, and even if u were, y would I want to argue that?? That wasnt my intial argument, nor will it be.

 

[Night Fly]

Okay...about the doctor comment. I mean, really...yeah, someone who did not attend school could study for the test, maybe pass it, and what not...but really? Would you actually want a so called 'doc' coming in to do brain surgery without him having all the experience of learning from those who know their stuff? This is what universities do....they provide experiences and people that you can learn things from. Doctors flat out need degrees...that is their proof that they have had the adequate education and experience that proves them worthy of doing whatever kind of medical work they have chosen.

There are so many things that I disagree with in this thread that I can't even begin to count them...

buddy28...I agree with you...wholeheartedly....and also vinylgroover...

Warik...sometimes I really wonder what on earth you were thinking when you typed some of your responses on this thread. lol...

 

[Norman Bates]

Do you need a college degree to be a chemist? By the "rules" governing the chemistry field, YES.


Seeing as how I'm not a chemist, nor have I had more than a basic education in chemistry, no, I'm not smarter than the CEOs, nor do I claim to be-Warik

With that chemist example...
Chemistry studying includes a lot of lab work. In my university more than half the time chemists spend there is in the lab cooking.
You can´t learn that out of books.
You´ll probably say that one can do this at home, too, but it´s really better to do that there ( at least i don´t want wannabe chemists playing around near me).

SAme goes with doctors in the medical field.In university they do not only learn every latin name of muscles, they also practice operations on human corpses. Something you cannot learn just by books or at home (except if your goatslayer maybe ) . Some tests also include practically demonstrating their skills on corpses.

There maybe other fields like IT where one can learn and practice at home, but that doesn´t apply for all.

 

[Imnotdutch]

no, i just wanted to see if brainwashed people (such as yourself) would push school and say it is the way to go. now Warik's reply, on the other hand, put common sense over society's morals, which it turns out, you represent.

have you ever heard about learning for the sake of interest and not because you're told?

also, this thread was not supposed to be about me. im going to stay in school just as a back up basically, i dont like it, nor do i need it. i just wanted to see how many people would give the response you did, compared to how few will give one like Warik.

I wasn't going to respond but I will anyway.......
I have 2 degrees and am working on a third. I come from a background where there are traditionally low expectations made of children so saying that society made me do it doesn't cut. I learn because I enjoy it. Believe it or not alot of people arent slaves to society as you suggest.

 

[bigguns7]

It all depends on what you want for yourself. If you'd be happy in the army, then do it. I personally wouldn't be happy in the army, because I don't do very well in a regimented lifestyle, and I don't like the quality of people that join the army where I come from.

On the other hand, I want to make it up the ladder in corporate America, because I want to make a shit-ton of money, but I don't want the responsibility of owning my own business. Do you know how many corporations would promote me to CEO without a college degree, much less a masters degree? I would venture to say not many.

So, I got a degree, and I'm getting an MBA. Is it a waste of time? Maybe. Is there opportunity cost? Yes. But you have to play the game. That's all there is to it.

I'm not brainwashed, I'm smart, and I know how society works. So go join the fucking army, and retire at 39 with a meager pension that won't allow you to put your kids through college (which you probably won't do anyway), and shut your mouth about educated people being brainwashed.

People who think an education is imperative aren't brainwashed, they know how to play the game of life. That's something you should look into while you're in basic training.

At ease corporal.

 

[Warik]

Last thing I will say on this thread.

This thread seems to have turned into nothing more than petty insults from those who place so much value on the university system, so I will no longer participate.

I never said that I did not value education and that I did not think that people should have an education. My argument was totally based on the idea that people do not "NEED" a college degree to do a job efficiently. The only necessity of a college degree spawns from the fact that some big CEO who has never written a line of code in his life thinks that anyone without a bachelor of computer science degree can't program good enough to work for him, which couldn't be further from the truth.

My argument attempted to place value on self-education. Did you read that? I was actually trying to say nice things about people. I was trying to say that people, even the lowest class of people, can walk into a library or log on to the Internet and learn a host of things - the same, if not more, than they could learn at school. What I've read here is just paragraphs and paragraphs reinforcing the brainwashing that has taught you: "If you don't go to college you won't learn anything and won't succeed! You have to go to college!"

The only reason I'm going to college is because the big CEO of some software company thinks that I need a BS to be a good programmer, even though I'm just as skilled now as <insert random guy who just got his BS>, and if not, could probably learn everything I'm lacking in less than a week by looking on the web. What kind of inefficiency does this place on society where our talented youth, and there are LOTS of talented youths out there, have to wait 4 years before applying their skills for the benefit of society?

If you don't think there's something wrong with America's corporate world's policy of: "no degree - no job," then that says a great deal about your faith in your own intelligence.

-Warik

 

[mrbill]

Mattcanning...good luck in the military or whatever field you choose. There are many paths to success, each of us must decide what path we will follow. For some, such as myself, I choose to pursue a more "formal" education. Is this the only way to success? Obviously not. In general, does education equate to higher income levels?? Yes. (but there are always exceptions)
Warik, it is disingenuous to use statistical outlyers to support your argument that education is invalid or unnecessary. One can always cite extreme examples such as the success of Bill Gates to "prove" that formal education is not necessary. However, you are intelligent enough to realize that this is statistically such a random event that to use this as the basis of support for your argument is ludicrous. That would be analogous to me arguing that it is safe to jump out of airplanes without a parchute since there have been documented cases of people surviving uninjured after their parachutes failed to deploy.

 

[mattcanning99]

Mattcanning...good luck in the military or whatever field you choose. There are many paths to success, each of us must decide what path we will follow. For some, such as myself, I choose to pursue a more "formal" education. Is this the only way to success? Obviously not. In general, does education equate to higher income levels?? Yes. (but there are always exceptions)
Warik, it is disingenuous to use statistical outlyers to support your argument that education is invalid or unnecessary. One can always cite extreme examples such as the success of Bill Gates to "prove" that formal education is not necessary. However, you are intelligent enough to realize that this is statistically such a random event that to use this as the basis of support for your argument is ludicrous. That would be analogous to me arguing that it is safe to jump out of airplanes without a parchute since there have been documented cases of people surviving uninjured after their parachutes failed to deploy.

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At ease corporal.

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