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Are full range situps bad for your back, or is that bullshit?
Full range situps...
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The Red Dragon
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ditto, kills my back
supreme
New member
Loaded question, all depends on individual factors, history and level of training.
If you are having back pain it could be several issues: tight lumbar erectors, tight hamstrings, rotation of the pelvis, herinated discs, weak or imbalanced hip flexors / lower abdominal etc.
The first thing you need is an assessment of your posture, specifically rotation of the pelvis and then ROM testing for your spinal erectors and hamstrings. Then you need a test of the strength of your lower abdominal area and then a coordination/strength test of the anterior flexor chain to look for muscle imbalances.
Traditionally full situps strain the back because they over recruit the hip flexors and lead to increased anterior pelvic tilt which increases shearing of the lumbar vertebrae during many exercises, especially ab work. They can also aggrevate any disc problems or can express latent disc problems that have not been diagnosed yet.
The full sit up /crunch is useful for many athletes for most sports that involve running, jumping & throwing need a coordinated effort between the hip flexors and trunk flexors (abs) the problems arise when they are placed into a routine too soon and cause the above mentioned changes is pelvic rotation leading to muscle imbalances and possible injuries.
The abs always need to be trained: Transverse abdominus activiation first, lower abs next , obliques and then upper abdominal region to enusre correct neurological coordination and actviation. ONLY when there is balanced development in all muscle groups do you add in a full ROM sit up. Unfortunately most idiot trainers and BS magazines know about 2 ab exercises: Crunches & machine crunches.
Crunch machines can wreck your lower back for if you don't set them right and you flex too far forward and have your 12th rib cross the axis of rotation of the machine the tension of the weight stack leaves the abdominal wall and is transmitted to the quadratus lumborum (deep muscles in your lower back) and these muscles are unprepared for the sudden load for the QL is an extensor of the spine but when you go too far forward it is forced to become a flexor of the spine in a weak mechanical postion and you get tremendous forces and eventually a QL strain.
So once again we see we need individual assessment, magazine training is bullshit, most trainers are f'in morons and people who rely on crunch machines keep buying BMW's & beach houses for Chiropractors, Orthopedists and Physical therapists.
Later!! (gotta drive my BMW to my beach house! - long live cybex, nautilus & hammer strength $$$$$$)
S
If you are having back pain it could be several issues: tight lumbar erectors, tight hamstrings, rotation of the pelvis, herinated discs, weak or imbalanced hip flexors / lower abdominal etc.
The first thing you need is an assessment of your posture, specifically rotation of the pelvis and then ROM testing for your spinal erectors and hamstrings. Then you need a test of the strength of your lower abdominal area and then a coordination/strength test of the anterior flexor chain to look for muscle imbalances.
Traditionally full situps strain the back because they over recruit the hip flexors and lead to increased anterior pelvic tilt which increases shearing of the lumbar vertebrae during many exercises, especially ab work. They can also aggrevate any disc problems or can express latent disc problems that have not been diagnosed yet.
The full sit up /crunch is useful for many athletes for most sports that involve running, jumping & throwing need a coordinated effort between the hip flexors and trunk flexors (abs) the problems arise when they are placed into a routine too soon and cause the above mentioned changes is pelvic rotation leading to muscle imbalances and possible injuries.
The abs always need to be trained: Transverse abdominus activiation first, lower abs next , obliques and then upper abdominal region to enusre correct neurological coordination and actviation. ONLY when there is balanced development in all muscle groups do you add in a full ROM sit up. Unfortunately most idiot trainers and BS magazines know about 2 ab exercises: Crunches & machine crunches.
Crunch machines can wreck your lower back for if you don't set them right and you flex too far forward and have your 12th rib cross the axis of rotation of the machine the tension of the weight stack leaves the abdominal wall and is transmitted to the quadratus lumborum (deep muscles in your lower back) and these muscles are unprepared for the sudden load for the QL is an extensor of the spine but when you go too far forward it is forced to become a flexor of the spine in a weak mechanical postion and you get tremendous forces and eventually a QL strain.
So once again we see we need individual assessment, magazine training is bullshit, most trainers are f'in morons and people who rely on crunch machines keep buying BMW's & beach houses for Chiropractors, Orthopedists and Physical therapists.
Later!! (gotta drive my BMW to my beach house! - long live cybex, nautilus & hammer strength $$$$$$)
S
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blut wump
New member
I can't argue with supreme's fine post but what it basically comes down to is the pelvic girdle and the usual problem of agonistic and antagonistic muscles. Many people do their core work as just a few crunches or situps and ignore their obliques, posterior chain and the fact that you need to work upper and lower abdominals.
Assuming that your skeleton is sound, you need to work on strengthening the rest of your pelvic girdle and, probably, getting more flexibility into your hamstrings. Basically, core conditioning.
Assuming that your skeleton is sound, you need to work on strengthening the rest of your pelvic girdle and, probably, getting more flexibility into your hamstrings. Basically, core conditioning.
supreme
New member
I totally agree, the only problem is most people (especially personal trainers) have no clue as to what the core is or does!
I interview so many morons who "specialize in core training" and I ask them "what is the core, and how do you you train it" - I get the same answer 90% of the time: abs, crunches etc. -hence to say they don't get hired by me!
S
I interview so many morons who "specialize in core training" and I ask them "what is the core, and how do you you train it" - I get the same answer 90% of the time: abs, crunches etc. -hence to say they don't get hired by me!
S
Tom Treutlein
New member
If you got an assement for any pelvic rotation, then got it fixed (assuming you had a problem), isn't is possible you end up with a tilt again? Kind've like a problem that'll just keep coming back?
How do you avoid things such as this?
How do you avoid things such as this?
supreme
New member
Correction of a pelvic tilt is most commonly fixed by balancing out the length / tension relationships of the involved musculature. In an anterior tilt usually you have tight & short lumbar erectors and /or tight hip flexors with corresponding weak / lengthened hamstrings and/ or lower abdominal area.
fixing it usually is simple; you stretch the short & tight and strengthen the long and weak. you prevent it from coming back by training in the proper order and maintaining flexibility in the tight muscles. If treated properly, it should not come back. Be careful of the corrective program, sometimes they are overdone and the tlit goes from anterior to posterior instead of neutral pelvis because the the exercise intensity was too high or too long in duration
S
fixing it usually is simple; you stretch the short & tight and strengthen the long and weak. you prevent it from coming back by training in the proper order and maintaining flexibility in the tight muscles. If treated properly, it should not come back. Be careful of the corrective program, sometimes they are overdone and the tlit goes from anterior to posterior instead of neutral pelvis because the the exercise intensity was too high or too long in duration
S
Tom Treutlein
New member
Damn, that's gonna be hard to figure out on my own. Any way to figure out whether your tilt is anterior or posterior?
supreme
New member
musketeer
New member
Wehn I was 16 I wanted to have abs like shawn ray, and I figured that doing hundreds of ab movements would do it for me.
I would do hundreds of bent knee situps, bench leg raises and hanging knee raises.
I was ableto do a set of 1,000 situps in about 40mins, nonstop.
DID NOT DO A THING FOR MY AB DEFINITION!
what it did do, I believe, was give me a rock tight midesction. It hurt my lower back as well as my abs when I did situps, but after a while I got used to it. The first time I tried deadlifting, I pulled up 315 at a bodyweight of 160 and neary 6'0" tall. I believ that as I did not already have an injury, the situps just did me good.
I would do hundreds of bent knee situps, bench leg raises and hanging knee raises.
I was ableto do a set of 1,000 situps in about 40mins, nonstop.
DID NOT DO A THING FOR MY AB DEFINITION!
what it did do, I believe, was give me a rock tight midesction. It hurt my lower back as well as my abs when I did situps, but after a while I got used to it. The first time I tried deadlifting, I pulled up 315 at a bodyweight of 160 and neary 6'0" tall. I believ that as I did not already have an injury, the situps just did me good.
Tom Treutlein
New member
No exercise. Lose bodyfat. Get to 10% or below and you'll start seeing abs.
well, as true as that is... i don't have alot of BF (likely more than 10% however)...but lets say i was down to near 10% -what would you suggest then to have solid, defined abs; as opposed to a skinny (flat) stomach, or one of those 'keg' abs - you know, where the guy is so massive, that instead of a 6pack, he's just go a blig blob of solid muscle 
supreme
New member
Lets use science to answer everyone's questions:
No such thing as spot reduction, drop bodyfat and you see the muscle BUT genetics dictates where fat is metabolized from, usually first place on = last off!, if your BF is low you will see definition. Big. blob abs are big fat blobs!
The abs (all layers) are part of the core, you can't differentiate between a strong core/ abs BUT you can overwork the different muscles at the exclusion of others i.e too many crunches and get: low back, neck, jaw, shoulder and upper back pain
- the crunch is the world's most over used and abused exercise!!
You absolutely want & NEED a strong core or you will never make progress brcause the core protects you from injury, transfers power between the ground and extremeties, provides balance and coordinated movements.
Correct training and diet will produce both a six pack and a strong core!! - Think of it this way, a strong core is a six-pack that both looks good & functions correctly!
S
No such thing as spot reduction, drop bodyfat and you see the muscle BUT genetics dictates where fat is metabolized from, usually first place on = last off!, if your BF is low you will see definition. Big. blob abs are big fat blobs!
The abs (all layers) are part of the core, you can't differentiate between a strong core/ abs BUT you can overwork the different muscles at the exclusion of others i.e too many crunches and get: low back, neck, jaw, shoulder and upper back pain
- the crunch is the world's most over used and abused exercise!!
You absolutely want & NEED a strong core or you will never make progress brcause the core protects you from injury, transfers power between the ground and extremeties, provides balance and coordinated movements.
Correct training and diet will produce both a six pack and a strong core!! - Think of it this way, a strong core is a six-pack that both looks good & functions correctly!
S
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Tom Treutlein
New member
Supreme - what exercises should one use to train their core "properly", then? Ab training, I take it, should not be excluded, but must be done right. Assuming proper pelvic tilt, what should one do?
supreme
New member
well if you have neutral pelvis you should start with lower abdominal work. there are NO lower ab muscles, it is just the distal end of the rectus abdominus but there are different nerves going to the portion of the six pack below the belly button.
This allows for segmented contraction of the abs, most other muscles only have 2 nerves, a primary & secondary - the rectus has 8, thus either end can be a prime mover or stabilizer. The function of the lower abs is to work with the external obliques to rotate the pelvis 10 degrees bacwards during movement thus allowing for neutral pelvic alignment and decreasing shear of the lumbar vertabrae.
also you need to remember to activate the transverse abdominus; you would always want to draw the belly button toward the spine to activate the TVA which will also align the pelvis and flatten the abdominal wall ****Note: pulling in your belly button (activating the TVA) is the only way to use muscles to flatten the abs, crunches DO NOT flatten the abdominal wall and if you do crunches without 1st pulling in you can distend the abdomen due to pushing out too hard.
After lower abs, oblique work - rotation & lateral bending and then finally full range forward flexion i.e. crunches.
Lower ab exercises can include: Pelvic tilts, leg lowering, reverse crunche, knee raises
Oblique work includes all forms of rotation: wood chops, russian twist, medicine ball throws etc. & lateral bending: side bridges, cable or dumbell side bends, overhead (Saxon) side bend
Crunches for the upper abs are best done over a physioball for the full ROM of the rectus is 40 deg. extension & 30 deg. flexion meaning if you do crunches on the floor, a bench or machine for too long you will lose 10 degrees of extension/mobility in the thoracic spine.
Although individual testing should be done to determine which muscles are weak so they can be prioritized (usually TVA & lower abs) and then dynamic full range movements using both the rectus & hip flexors can be used.
Believe me it is more detailed than this but I tried to keep it short. Here is a link to the BEST ab book ever!!! and some useful articles:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/002-7519845-4328867?v=glance&s=books
http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=24
http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=31
http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=33
http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=12
Hope this helps!!
S
This allows for segmented contraction of the abs, most other muscles only have 2 nerves, a primary & secondary - the rectus has 8, thus either end can be a prime mover or stabilizer. The function of the lower abs is to work with the external obliques to rotate the pelvis 10 degrees bacwards during movement thus allowing for neutral pelvic alignment and decreasing shear of the lumbar vertabrae.
also you need to remember to activate the transverse abdominus; you would always want to draw the belly button toward the spine to activate the TVA which will also align the pelvis and flatten the abdominal wall ****Note: pulling in your belly button (activating the TVA) is the only way to use muscles to flatten the abs, crunches DO NOT flatten the abdominal wall and if you do crunches without 1st pulling in you can distend the abdomen due to pushing out too hard.
After lower abs, oblique work - rotation & lateral bending and then finally full range forward flexion i.e. crunches.
Lower ab exercises can include: Pelvic tilts, leg lowering, reverse crunche, knee raises
Oblique work includes all forms of rotation: wood chops, russian twist, medicine ball throws etc. & lateral bending: side bridges, cable or dumbell side bends, overhead (Saxon) side bend
Crunches for the upper abs are best done over a physioball for the full ROM of the rectus is 40 deg. extension & 30 deg. flexion meaning if you do crunches on the floor, a bench or machine for too long you will lose 10 degrees of extension/mobility in the thoracic spine.
Although individual testing should be done to determine which muscles are weak so they can be prioritized (usually TVA & lower abs) and then dynamic full range movements using both the rectus & hip flexors can be used.
Believe me it is more detailed than this but I tried to keep it short. Here is a link to the BEST ab book ever!!! and some useful articles:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/002-7519845-4328867?v=glance&s=books
http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=24
http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=31
http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=33
http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=12
Hope this helps!!
S
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Tom Treutlein
New member
Awesome information, Supreme. One more question (I'm going to buy the ab book in the coming week, so I don't have to bother you anymore, but...) how often should work like this be done? If one trained Monday/Wednesday/Friday, would doing the ab work every session be viable?
And though it's probably individual, how much is enough, and how much is too much?
Finally - beginning or end of the workout?
I have no idea if any of these things really make a difference, though I figured I'd ask. I'd give more Karma if I could, but you got some recently from me and it won't let me give anymore.
And though it's probably individual, how much is enough, and how much is too much?
Finally - beginning or end of the workout?
I have no idea if any of these things really make a difference, though I figured I'd ask. I'd give more Karma if I could, but you got some recently from me and it won't let me give anymore.
I do ONLY rull ROM sit-ups.
I have decent and strong abs. If your core is strong enough then they shouldn't bother you.
B True
I have decent and strong abs. If your core is strong enough then they shouldn't bother you.
B True
supreme
New member
Tom:
actually everything you asked does make a difference and are individual to each person. i believe they are all coverd in the book and article links but feel free to always ask questions.
as to when: usually after the rest of all your other work for if you are training correctly you are activating your TVA and subsequently the rest of the core on every rep, so if you do your core/abs 1st. you are tiring out the muscles that stabilize your spine & protect you from injury - all movement begins from the deep core and the TVA fires 30 -50 millisec. before any limbs move to stabilize & protect the spine and coordinate the bodies movment while transfering power (in those who have a properly functioning core)
If you have a weakness, injury or are only doing core work then you can do it at the start of your workout but do not follow it with heavy strength or power exercises or you can cause an injury.
Too much? - you reps should be less then 15 with extra resistance unless you are training for injury rehab, spinal stabilization, postural endurance or sports endurance. The rectus & obliques are composed of type II strength fibers and function to protect against impact, spinal hyperextension and perform explosive rotation.
Daily core/ ab work can be done as long as your train different muscles & movements to prevent overtraining.
The book is good, please realize a lot has been added since it was printed but the principles & ideas are still the same - just other exercises are used;
primarily the physioball. Just replace the floor crunch with a proper physioball crunch and you will be fine!
If you really want in depth info on all the muscles, testing, program design and beginner - advanced exercises the best thing is the CHEK Institutes core conditioning pack of 5 videos & manuals (its where I got most of this info!)
S
actually everything you asked does make a difference and are individual to each person. i believe they are all coverd in the book and article links but feel free to always ask questions.
as to when: usually after the rest of all your other work for if you are training correctly you are activating your TVA and subsequently the rest of the core on every rep, so if you do your core/abs 1st. you are tiring out the muscles that stabilize your spine & protect you from injury - all movement begins from the deep core and the TVA fires 30 -50 millisec. before any limbs move to stabilize & protect the spine and coordinate the bodies movment while transfering power (in those who have a properly functioning core)
If you have a weakness, injury or are only doing core work then you can do it at the start of your workout but do not follow it with heavy strength or power exercises or you can cause an injury.
Too much? - you reps should be less then 15 with extra resistance unless you are training for injury rehab, spinal stabilization, postural endurance or sports endurance. The rectus & obliques are composed of type II strength fibers and function to protect against impact, spinal hyperextension and perform explosive rotation.
Daily core/ ab work can be done as long as your train different muscles & movements to prevent overtraining.
The book is good, please realize a lot has been added since it was printed but the principles & ideas are still the same - just other exercises are used;
primarily the physioball. Just replace the floor crunch with a proper physioball crunch and you will be fine!
If you really want in depth info on all the muscles, testing, program design and beginner - advanced exercises the best thing is the CHEK Institutes core conditioning pack of 5 videos & manuals (its where I got most of this info!)
S
supreme
New member
Tom:
actually everything you asked does make a difference and are individual to each person. i believe they are all coverd in the book and article links but feel free to always ask questions.
as to when: usually after the rest of all your other work for if you are training correctly you are activating your TVA and subsequently the rest of the core on every rep, so if you do your core/abs 1st. you are tiring out the muscles that stabilize your spine & protect you from injury - all movement begins from the deep core and the TVA fires 30 -50 millisec. before any limbs move to stabilize & protect the spine and coordinate the bodies movment while transfering power (in those who have a properly functioning core)
If you have a weakness, injury or are only doing core work then you can do it at the start of your workout but do not follow it with heavy strength or power exercises or you can cause an injury.
Too much? - you reps should be less then 15 with extra resistance unless you are training for injury rehab, spinal stabilization, postural endurance or sports endurance. The rectus & obliques are composed of type II strength fibers and function to protect against impact, spinal hyperextension and perform explosive rotation.
Daily core/ ab work can be done as long as your train different muscles & movements to prevent overtraining.
The book is good, please realize a lot has been added since it was printed but the principles & ideas are still the same - just other exercises are used;
primarily the physioball. Just replace the floor crunch with a proper physioball crunch and you will be fine!
If you really want in depth info on all the muscles, testing, program design and beginner - advanced exercises the best thing is the CHEK Institutes core conditioning pack of 5 videos & manuals (its where I got most of this info!)
http://www.chekinstitute.com/products_specific.cfm?product=45&corr=yes
S
SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST - I WENT TO EDIT & ADD THE LINK BUT IT DOUBLE POSTED
actually everything you asked does make a difference and are individual to each person. i believe they are all coverd in the book and article links but feel free to always ask questions.
as to when: usually after the rest of all your other work for if you are training correctly you are activating your TVA and subsequently the rest of the core on every rep, so if you do your core/abs 1st. you are tiring out the muscles that stabilize your spine & protect you from injury - all movement begins from the deep core and the TVA fires 30 -50 millisec. before any limbs move to stabilize & protect the spine and coordinate the bodies movment while transfering power (in those who have a properly functioning core)
If you have a weakness, injury or are only doing core work then you can do it at the start of your workout but do not follow it with heavy strength or power exercises or you can cause an injury.
Too much? - you reps should be less then 15 with extra resistance unless you are training for injury rehab, spinal stabilization, postural endurance or sports endurance. The rectus & obliques are composed of type II strength fibers and function to protect against impact, spinal hyperextension and perform explosive rotation.
Daily core/ ab work can be done as long as your train different muscles & movements to prevent overtraining.
The book is good, please realize a lot has been added since it was printed but the principles & ideas are still the same - just other exercises are used;
primarily the physioball. Just replace the floor crunch with a proper physioball crunch and you will be fine!
If you really want in depth info on all the muscles, testing, program design and beginner - advanced exercises the best thing is the CHEK Institutes core conditioning pack of 5 videos & manuals (its where I got most of this info!)
http://www.chekinstitute.com/products_specific.cfm?product=45&corr=yes
S
SORRY FOR THE DOUBLE POST - I WENT TO EDIT & ADD THE LINK BUT IT DOUBLE POSTED
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Tom Treutlein
New member
Alright, then if someone wanted to train M/W/F and just do abs then (even though they could be done daily), would you say this is a solid exercise selection and order?
Vacuums (TVA, I figure)
Reverse Crunch/Knee Raises (alternated)
Russian Twists/Side Bridges (alternated)
Crunch (physioball)
I figure that two sets of each (8 sets for abs, in this case) would be acceptable. Also, it's set up in proper order, so you target the TVA, lower abs, obliques, and finally the upper abs.
Aside from all that, would front bridges fit in anywhere? What would they focus, primarily? I really like side bridges, and if you mentioned them, I figure front bridges would also be useful.
Vacuums (TVA, I figure)
Reverse Crunch/Knee Raises (alternated)
Russian Twists/Side Bridges (alternated)
Crunch (physioball)
I figure that two sets of each (8 sets for abs, in this case) would be acceptable. Also, it's set up in proper order, so you target the TVA, lower abs, obliques, and finally the upper abs.
Aside from all that, would front bridges fit in anywhere? What would they focus, primarily? I really like side bridges, and if you mentioned them, I figure front bridges would also be useful.
supreme
New member
Looks great!
The front bridge or plank or iso-ab hold (same exercise, multiple names) could be used at any part since it works the whole core isometrically, I use it when teaching TVA exercises since you must activate the TVA against gravity which is much harder then when standing or sitting due to the weight of your internal organs being pulled down by gravity.
when you get & read the book you will have a great understanding of why the order you have is so important and anyone who does not follow it is risking injury etc.
S
The front bridge or plank or iso-ab hold (same exercise, multiple names) could be used at any part since it works the whole core isometrically, I use it when teaching TVA exercises since you must activate the TVA against gravity which is much harder then when standing or sitting due to the weight of your internal organs being pulled down by gravity.
when you get & read the book you will have a great understanding of why the order you have is so important and anyone who does not follow it is risking injury etc.
S
