? for Bill Llewellyn

[DrJMW]

I have been thinking about post-cycle medications for guys over 40 years old. As we age, our testes begin to fail and we tend to become resistant to LH and HGH. I have suggested that these guys use Androgel (low, daily doses of Test) to maintain their (muscle) gains and their (fat) losses. What is your opinion of all this? How does the older man differ from the young man? I appreciate the comments.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

I have been thinking about post-cycle medications for guys over 40 years old. As we age, our testes begin to fail and we tend to become resistant to LH and HGH. I have suggested that these guys use Androgel (low, daily doses of Test) to maintain their (muscle) gains and their (fat) losses. What is your opinion of all this? How does the older man differ from the young man? I appreciate the comments.

In a practical sense androgen replacement at this time would help you maintain mass. As we get older, I think our bodies tend to rebound more slowly. Filling in the gap so to speak can make a big difference in what you maintain overall. However, Androgel will also interfere with the return to homeostasis, as we are obviously supplementing andrognes. So for a temporary fix you could be prolonging the underlying issue.

My .02 is if true recovery of endogenous test is desired, you should avoid exogenous androgen and focus on HCG/Nolvadex. I think a lot of the younger guys avoid HCG and don;t complain all that much, but as we get older especially, it can be a very useful tool.

- Bill Llewellyn

 

[nautica]

Personally, I think you are confusing an older man with a female. Even though it is harder for an older man to recover his natural test levels - he will recover. Unlike a females whose is low naturally.

 

[DrJMW]

So, how is the older man, whose Tests level are already subnormal or low (100-200 level) ever going to recover? And what will his recovery levels be? After a cycle, if you give him HCG, and he isn't LH resistant, what are you jumpstarting? While on the cycle, his testes are practically shut down. Know you want to jumpstart him back up to his old levels (100-200). These levels will never maintain what was gained on the cycle. Nolvadex can stimulate Test Production, but it will never improve it, nor will Clomid--and Clomid is supposed to do that. See, as we age, LH resistance is a real phenomenon, as is the shutting down of Test production by the testes. This is my rationale for Androgel therapy.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

So, how is the older man, whose Tests level are already subnormal or low (100-200 level) ever going to recover? And what will his recovery levels be? After a cycle, if you give him HCG, and he isn't LH resistant, what are you jumpstarting? While on the cycle, his testes are practically shut down. Know you want to jumpstart him back up to his old levels (100-200). These levels will never maintain what was gained on the cycle. Nolvadex can stimulate Test Production, but it will never improve it, nor will Clomid--and Clomid is supposed to do that. See, as we age, LH resistance is a real phenomenon, as is the shutting down of Test production by the testes. This is my rationale for Androgel therapy.

I am not discounting the benifit of androgen replacement therapy. You question was about post-cycle rebound medications though, and Androgel will interfere with whatever your body wants to do normally. If at this point in life androgen levels are subnormal, and you need replacement, by all means, it may be a good idea. Just lets not confuse permanent androgen replacement with post cycle recovery.

- Bill Llewellyn

 

[DrJMW]

Bill,

Thanks for the distinction..this is important.

 

[The_Eviscerator]

Bill, I always see that you suggest HCG and Nolvadex at the end of a cycle. This time around I used Clomid and Nolvadex and it seemed to help me rebound and stay lean.

My Question IS: What would be the suggested dosing of HCG and Nolvadex after a 10 week cycle?

 

[FlexManning]

Bill, you're not the same guy that writes the column for Ironman are you?

 

[bbkingpin]

ANOTHER ? FOR BILL

Bill:
What is your .02 as to Deca and gyno? Is Nolvadex effective to prevent gyno when on Deca or does progesterone get around Nolvadex? I've never experienced gyno on Deca with Nolvadex but I only went up to 400mg/wk. The Eviscerator mentioned your book in another thread and said progesterone converts to estrogen which in turn causes gyno. So, if that's true, Nolvadex should be effective to combat gyno when on Deca. Can you settle this once and for all? Because this has become such a new concern for all the talking heads, and they now tell people to take different steroids (e.g., Winny) when taking Deca to prevent "progesterone-induced" gyno, inplying that Nolvadex is useless from preventing gyno from Deca. The old conventional wisdom was that Deca only aromatizes (to estrogen?) at high doses, but may aromatize more easily on others. Now, progesterone is the new buzzword for all the talking heads. Here are a couple threads if you want to read all the confusion that is prevelant. http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=101324&goto=newpost
http://boards.elitefitness.com/foru...02&goto=newpost
Please add your expertise to resolve this once and for all. Thanks.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Deca aromatizes at any dosage, however it is typically not significant enough to cause gyno unless high doses are taken.

I think with Deca, both progestational and estrogenic action is a slight concern. Progesterone augments the actions of estradiol on mammary tissue, so it is a supportive factor in promoting gyno. Nolvadex usually works with those noticing sensitivity due to Deca or other 19-norandrogens, as it essentially cutts off estrogenic action. I have seen the studies noting Wonstrol to bind the PR, however will not go so far as to conclude it is anti-progestational or a cure-all for deca gyno.

- Bill Llewellyn

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Bill, you're not the same guy that writes the column for Ironman are you?

Yep.

- Bill Llewellyn

 

[bbkingpin]

Thanks Bill.

Thanks Bill. I'm not going to bother trying to argue the point again. Sometimes you need thick skin on this board until you realize, in many instances, what you're dealing with. As they say: Never volunteer advice; a wise man doesn't need it, and a fool doesn't heed it. Thanks again, Bill!

 

[chemist101]

Hey Bill, loved your book, but Im wondering what your opinion is on Ttokkyo products since they were not mentioned in the book.
Regards- Chemist101

 

[chemist101]

bump

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Hey Bill, loved your book, but Im wondering what your opinion is on Ttokkyo products since they were not mentioned in the book.
Regards- Chemist101

I have the whole line in the new book actually. Until someone can prove to me otherwise, I like Ttokkyo, and think they are probably the most reliable vet company in Mexico.

- Bill Llewellyn

 

[Slopain]

I have the whole line in the new book actually. Until someone can prove to me otherwise, I like Ttokkyo, and think they are probably the most reliable vet company in Mexico.

- Bill Llewellyn

Agreed.

 

[Grainger]

Bill I am also interested in the ?

What would be the suggested dosing of HCG and Nolvadex after a 10 week cycle?

I sent you a private email but I am sure that many people on the board would like to know the answer to this one. (It was asked above by another memeber.)