Fellow REFEEDERS: Do you SEE or FEEL when you need to REFEED?

[Cuts]

I'm going low carbs to shed blubber for now, but b/c of Par Deus' leptin theories and advocating refeeds (THANK GOD ), I have planned refeeds every 5th day. Problem is, today (day 4) I felt and looked weak and small. This happened all of a sudden, I've felt fine so far till now... I just looked in the mirror and saw a fat small dude!

Should I go ahead and refeed whenever I feel and/or look like this? Is my body trying to tell me something? Or should I stick it out as per my original schedule?

What do ya'll think fellow refeeders?

Par Deus?

Thanks.

 

[Vageta]

Looking small is a side effect of low carbing. All of your muscle glycogen has been depleted so you look flat. However even though we hate looking like this, this look itself doesn't necessarily mean it's time to refeed. You will know when it's time to refeed because you will be very hungry and feel like breaking the diet at any moment. You don't always have to wait for this feeling though, it's ok to refeed before this time to avoid it entirely.

 

[bm2k]

You will know when it's time to refeed because you will be very hungry and feel like breaking the diet at any moment. You don't always have to wait for this feeling though, it's ok to refeed before this time to avoid it entirely.

I agree with that. After much experimenting and determining when the hunger feelings set in, and when my energy began to suffer, I determined my ideal refeeding schedule:

Day 1 - low-carb & workout
Day 2 - AM: low-carb PM: workout, 3 carb meal refeed inc. P/W meal
Day 3 - low-carb & rest day
Day 4 - low-carb & workout
Day 5 - high-carb refeed day & workout
Day 6 - low-carb & rest day
Day 7 - repeat from Day 1....

In other words: 1.5 days low-carb, 0.5 days refeed, 2 days low-carb, 1 day refeed, 2.5 days low-carb, repeat...

Its important to determine your own timing and the way your body responds to dieting and refeeds. Consequently, you alter your diet to suit this.

 

[Vageta]

bm2k, are you still currently cutting or just running maintenance right now? I'm considering upping my refeed days to 3x per week as I've noticed my hunger is increasing much faster after a refeed than it used to. I've been dieting for 16 weeks so far and I'm getting the feeling it's time for a break. I know I could probably continue on my current route and eventually get to my goal, but it'll be more painful and my metabolism may suffer when I get there.

I was thinking of coming off the diet for 3 weeks at an above maintenance intake with a higher carb content. Studies have shown that even 4 weeks of maintenance calories after an extended diet still didn't bring metabolism to baseline in participants. I think 3 weeks of above maintenance will accomplish this without much rebound. Then I will start my diet phase back up again with a rejuventated metabolism and high leptin levels. I'd be able to to start my diet where I left off at a higher caloric intake and I'd actually probably begin my more frequent refeed schedule at this time to ensure I keep leptin levels as high as possible the rest of the diet.

At any rate I was just wondering how your fat burning was going with a more frequent refeed schedule than what I'm currently doing.

 

[bm2k]

bm2k, are you still currently cutting or just running maintenance right now? I'm considering upping my refeed days to 3x per week as I've noticed my hunger is increasing much faster after a refeed than it used to. I've been dieting for 16 weeks so far and I'm getting the feeling it's time for a break. I know I could probably continue on my current route and eventually get to my goal, but it'll be more painful and my metabolism may suffer when I get there.

I'm still cutting, and have been for about 3 weeks now. Previously I was maintaining and trying to gain smalls amounts of mass. I have upped the frequency of my refeeds because I'm getting more and more hungry. As I noted above, the lengths between my two refeeds are 1.5, 2, and 2.5 days in one cycle. Despite this, I find myself in a similar situation to you. While I'm not as lean as I would like, I too think it's time for a break. The losses are still fairly consistent - I'm getting leaner and not losing any LBM. My strength is actually increasing (recently changed to a strength based program, as opposed to hypertrophy lifting I was doing previously). That said, despite my refeeds I'm more tired and have less energy than I'd like. Though I'm not sure whether this is due to my diet or stressful and busy times at university... In spite of everything I have just said, I plan to continue my current routine for the next 2 weeks and then re-assess where I'm at. Currently for me, a lean physique is more important than a big physique. Refeeds are preserving my LBM and keep the fat-loss steady. I've just got to keep it together psychologically and I'll be set. I'm more determined than I've ever been, which helps.

I was thinking of coming off the diet for 3 weeks at an above maintenance intake with a higher carb content. Studies have shown that even 4 weeks of maintenance calories after an extended diet still didn't bring metabolism to baseline in participants. I think 3 weeks of above maintenance will accomplish this without much rebound. Then I will start my diet phase back up again with a rejuventated metabolism and high leptin levels. I'd be able to to start my diet where I left off at a higher caloric intake and I'd actually probably begin my more frequent refeed schedule at this time to ensure I keep leptin levels as high as possible the rest of the diet.

Your plan sounds excellent. If I were to start dieting again following a maintence phase, I would make refeeds as frequent as possible. The determinant of the frequency would be the effect of refeeding on fat loss. For a fresh dieter who is fairly lean to begin with (say <12%), a 1.5-on/0.5-refeed, 2-on/1-refeed schedule seems ideal. What type of timing were you considering at this stage? You've obviously got a fairly good understanding of how your body is going to respond...

At any rate I was just wondering how your fat burning was going with a more frequent refeed schedule than what I'm currently doing.

As I said above, it is still consistent, but increasingly "painful" (in comparison to how easy it has been to date). I've never been the leanest individual and I'm starting to think that as my body stands, it has reached at a "setpoint" for the moment. I don't actually know what my exact BF% is, but its got to be in the region of 8-12% (I know, big range, but these things are pretty subjective measurements anyway... I've got amazing definition and ab development when flexing, but still look a little soft when relaxed, especially from the side profile - damn lower abs - and I haven't even mentioned my fat ass!!!).

My advice: maitenance for 2-4 weeks, then go for the really frequent refeeds - as frequent as you can get away with while still losing fat.

 

[coolcolj]

two words -


zig-zag

 

[Vageta]

I'm guess-timating my bodyfat is 12% or so right now. Upper abs show when flexing but I hold fat in different areas than the skinfold equations assume so it's really hard to tell. I am holding some fat in my lower pecs still even with my upper abs starting to show and I have a feeling this will be the last fat to go. I too feel like I'm reaching my bodies "setpoint" and it is really starting to fight me. Instead of pissing against the wind I think this upcoming break will allow me to charge through my last steps a lot less painfully.

I feel as if I have about 1-2 more weeks left to diet before my body finally wins over. I will use this time to plan out my upcoming food intake as I've been dieting for so long I'm going to have to figure out what to eat I'm also hoping to shed a few more pounds by then to give me room for the small rebound I may experience. I'd like to start my diet again very strongly at no more than 12% bodyfat.

I will probably end up doing 2 full day refeeds a week when I start my diet again. Right now I'm doing just what my diet thread says and I don't think the half day is cutting it anymore when I have to wait another 3 full days for my next one. If my hunger creeps up I will most likely do 3 refeeds per week, something like 2 half-days and a full day on the weekend. I may eventually end up doing something like Par where I refeed for half a day every other day. We'll see how it goes. I've already asked Par for some specifics in his plan since he is a bit vague in his personal guidelines.

Keep me in touch with your progess and how your refeeding is going especially if you increase it again. I am definately going to take the break as it will do me a world of good. I'll cut out my ECA stack as well so my metabolism gets a full break and comes back normal. Thanks for the advice as well, it's good to know there are others out there who think like me and are willing to experiment for themselves instead of relying on the results of others.

 

[bm2k]

BRING IT ON!

This thread has helped my re-assess where I'm at. Consequently, I've made some serious alterations to my diet and routine. This all varies greatly from what I was saying above, but I've just been going over it all and decided that I want to be as lean as I can get and don't want to delay it .

I'm fairly depleted in terms of muscle glycogen and water at the moment, and weigh in at all of 160lbs (5'8 with the upper body of a 175lb guy - my legs don't exist due to a long-term injury that I'm struggling to get over - fortunately now I can start working them again, yay!). My calorie calculations are as follows:

* 10x BW for the low-carb portions
* 15x BW + 50% for the refeeds
* calorie calculations take into account time frames
* 50P/30F/20C in "low"-carb portions
* 75C/20P/5F in refeeds
* 8 out of 24 hours sleep
* modified 3 day split of sorts, working out every second day

Day 1
1600 calories (16 hours)

Day 2
Pre-workout: 800 calories (7.5 hours)
Workout 1 (1 hour)
Refeed: 1800 calories (7.5 hours)

Day 3
1600 calories (16 hours)

Day 4
Pre-workout: 800 calories (7.5 hours)
Workout 2 (1 hour)
Refeed: 1800 calories (7.5 hours)

Day 5
1600 calories (16 hours)

Day 6
Pre-workout: 800 calories (7.5 hours)
Workout 3 (1 hour)
Refeed: 1800 calories (7.5 hours)

Day 7
Repeat cycle from Day 1

All of that is based on a combination of my personal dieting experience, refeeding experience, reading and knowledge, and the huge amount of information that this board has been bombarded with recently.

Some might suggest the calories are too low or the refeeds, but I'm just running on 10x BW and what I think happens to work best for me...

Hope I haven't screwed up any of the specifics there, but I kinda rushed through everything because the AFL team I follow (go Saints! ) is about to start their match tonight, and I don't want to miss it .

I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on this... Vageta & Par Deus' in particular...

 

[Par Deus]

bm2k,

The way you are doing it now is pretty much what I do, adjusted for bodyweight, of course.

As I said in another thread, if fat loss is the primary goal, 3-4 weeks above maintenence is not the way to go, because it absolutely will cause a decent amount of fat gain. Just increase the frequency or length of refeeds. When that quits working, then do a quick 10 day bulking cycle.

 

[MohawkMuscle]

Where can we find more info in this???

I am currently on a low carb diet but I tend to increase calories on sat, by way of carbs...