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patsfan1379
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jnevin said:
Verified.
Fat People
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Spartacus
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KickNitRight
New member
Smurfy said:
Obesity is not a vice. It is a condition. Many times it is a condition created by vice. Other times it is a condition caused by uncontrollable physiological issues. Saying obesity is a vice is like saying baldness is a vice. There's no self-righteousness in looking at a bald person and saying, "You have no hair."
Tatyana
Elite Mentor
mightymouse69 said:
The introduction or 'background' in both papers stated that metabolic rate is highly variable.
When doing scientific research, in your 'lit review' you state what is already known, sort of like standing on the shoulders of giants.
The variation in metabolic rate was stated in both of the abstracts:
Background: Basal metabolic rate (BMR) is the largest component of daily energy demand in Western societies. Previous studies indicated that BMR is highly variable, but the cause of this variation is disputed. All studies agree that variation in fat-free mass (FFM) plays a major role, but effects of fat mass (FM), age, sex, and the hormones leptin, triiodothyrionine (T3), and thyroxine (T4) remain uncertain.
There is significant variation in metabolic rate in humans, independent of differences in body size, body composition, age, and gender
You are obviously an intelligent man, however, I would think your formal education is in something like philosophy or economic, world politics perhaps?
Tatyana
Elite Mentor
mightymouse69 said:
You took that out of context, it was only a partial statement. They were investigating several parameters.
Results: Only 2% of the observed variability in BMR was attributable to within-subject effects, of which 0.5% was analytic error. Of the remaining variance, which reflected between-subject effects, 63% was explained by FFM, 6% by FM, and 2% by age. The effects of sex and bone mineral content were not significant (P > 0.05). Twenty-six percent of the variance remained unexplained. This variation was not associated with concentrations of circulating leptin or T3. T4 was not significant in women but explained 25% of the residual variance in men.
Between - subject variance means that the metabolic rate varies BETWEEN people, that the significance in variation of the basal metabolic rate was not due to variation within the subject (that is the BMR varies considerably in the same person from morning to night, day to day, etc).
So which argument is fraught with bias?
I am just presenting scientific research, what we know now. It may prove to be incorrect in the future, however, I do not see any evidence or further elaboration of your statements.
I would love to hear more about causation and face-validity.
Raptorex
New member
Look up Bradford Hill's criteria for causation; also theory of causation (sufficient; necessary; component).
With regards to bias; what I meant was I can easily support my position with a publication - you name the topic - I can do it.
I was simply asking you to step back and objectively try to argue that obesity isn't caused by lack of physical activity and improper diet.
The genetic variable is a "red herring" argument (everything has some genetic component - afterall that is what we are made of)
With regards to bias; what I meant was I can easily support my position with a publication - you name the topic - I can do it.
I was simply asking you to step back and objectively try to argue that obesity isn't caused by lack of physical activity and improper diet.
The genetic variable is a "red herring" argument (everything has some genetic component - afterall that is what we are made of)
tatyana_zadorozny said:
PICK3
New member
blueta2
New member
In today's paper (the US was not included in the study b/c they are the leaders in obesity)
We're the fattest nation of them all
Tom Spears, CanWest News Service
Published: 2 hours ago
Canadian adults, both men and women, are the most obese in a survey of 63 nations that raises new health warnings for our country.
A whopping 36 per cent of Canadian men and women seen in family doctors' offices are obese, compared to just seven per cent in eastern Asia, the massive study says. And a further 40 per cent of the Canadian men who saw their doctor, and about 30 per cent of the women, were overweight, though not obese.
As well, Canadian men in the survey had the largest waistlines in the 63 nations, a major indicator of health problems to come. Canadian women were above average, but not the biggest.
In a survey of obesity in 63 nations, Canadians came out on top. The American Heart Association study says obesity is linked to health problems.
Agence France-Presse, Getty Images
However, it's not a global survey, as a few countries with known weight problems, in particular the U.S., were not included.
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention list an obesity rate of 32.9 per cent of American adults in 2003-04.
But the results published by the American Heart Association's medical journal, Circulation, still represent bad news for Canadian hearts.
Montreal cardiologist Jean-Pierre Despres said although 36 per cent of Canadians in the survey were obese, this doesn't represent the overall adult population. Health Canada says the national obesity rate is about 23 per cent.
"But that's far from reassuring," said Despres, speaking for the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada.
The high rate of obesity in doctors' offices shows it's the heaviest Canadians who are sickest, he said. "And if you go to a cardiovascular (unit), the number would be even higher."
The survey's biggest news, he said, is family doctors can accurately measure waistlines and can use this as a tool to learn who is most at risk of heart trouble and diabetes.
"This is the largest study to assess the frequency of adiposity (body fat) in the clinic, providing a snapshot of patients worldwide," said study lead author Beverley Balkau, director of research at INSERM -- France's national institute of health research.
The study gathered data from 168,159 people (including 3,062 Canadians) from 18 to 80 years old (with an average age 48) in 63 countries.
Family doctors were asked to check the BMI of every patient who came to see them on two half-days in 2005.
"The more obese, the fatter you are, so supposedly the worse (problem) it is," said Dr. Gerald Fletcher, a cardiologist with the Mayo Clinic who is familiar with the survey.
The big waists seen in Canadian men -- a median of about 100.3 centimetres, meaning half the men were bigger and half smaller -- is a huge matter of concern, he said.
The measure is taken halfway between the lowest rib and the hip bone, which is higher than the waist on a pair of pants.
"The abdominal obesity they looked at -- that's the waist circumference -- is another type of obesity which is even more devastating" than overall weight, he said. Recent research has found not all fat affects the body the same way. Low-slung fat on the hips and thighs is less likely to cause health problems than fat in the abdomen, which dramatically raises the risk of diabetes and heart disease.
But the study goes beyond pointing to Canadians as a special case.
Obesity is nearly a worldwide problem that threatens to wipe out gains made in treating heart disease and diabetes, reports Balkau.
"The study results show that excess body weight is pandemic (apart from southern and eastern Asia), with one-half to two-thirds of the population overweight or obese by current definitions," she writes. And her team concludes that diabetes and heart disease rates are closely tied to waistline size, not merely to weight.
Several people may have the same BMI but different waist sizes, and in every country the ones with the biggest stomachs are in worse health, the study finds.
"For men, each increase of approximately 5.5 inches (14 cm) means an increased frequency of about 35 per cent for heart disease and for women an increase of approximately six inches (15 cm) equates to a 40-per-cent increase for heart disease," the study authors report.
The average age of patients surveyed was 48 years, although in Canada the group was slightly older, averaging 51 years.
At least Canada doesn't score worst in the crucial category of heart disease. That distinction belongs to a group of Eastern European countries including Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Poland and Slovakia, possibly related to high rates of smoking in Eastern Europe.
In those countries, an average of 27 per cent of men and 24 per cent of women were found to have cardiovascular disease.
In Canada, 16 per cent of men in the survey, and eight per cent of the women, had cardiovascular disease.
We're the fattest nation of them all
Tom Spears, CanWest News Service
Published: 2 hours ago
Canadian adults, both men and women, are the most obese in a survey of 63 nations that raises new health warnings for our country.
A whopping 36 per cent of Canadian men and women seen in family doctors' offices are obese, compared to just seven per cent in eastern Asia, the massive study says. And a further 40 per cent of the Canadian men who saw their doctor, and about 30 per cent of the women, were overweight, though not obese.
As well, Canadian men in the survey had the largest waistlines in the 63 nations, a major indicator of health problems to come. Canadian women were above average, but not the biggest.
In a survey of obesity in 63 nations, Canadians came out on top. The American Heart Association study says obesity is linked to health problems.
Agence France-Presse, Getty Images
However, it's not a global survey, as a few countries with known weight problems, in particular the U.S., were not included.
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention list an obesity rate of 32.9 per cent of American adults in 2003-04.
But the results published by the American Heart Association's medical journal, Circulation, still represent bad news for Canadian hearts.
Montreal cardiologist Jean-Pierre Despres said although 36 per cent of Canadians in the survey were obese, this doesn't represent the overall adult population. Health Canada says the national obesity rate is about 23 per cent.
"But that's far from reassuring," said Despres, speaking for the Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada.
The high rate of obesity in doctors' offices shows it's the heaviest Canadians who are sickest, he said. "And if you go to a cardiovascular (unit), the number would be even higher."
The survey's biggest news, he said, is family doctors can accurately measure waistlines and can use this as a tool to learn who is most at risk of heart trouble and diabetes.
"This is the largest study to assess the frequency of adiposity (body fat) in the clinic, providing a snapshot of patients worldwide," said study lead author Beverley Balkau, director of research at INSERM -- France's national institute of health research.
The study gathered data from 168,159 people (including 3,062 Canadians) from 18 to 80 years old (with an average age 48) in 63 countries.
Family doctors were asked to check the BMI of every patient who came to see them on two half-days in 2005.
"The more obese, the fatter you are, so supposedly the worse (problem) it is," said Dr. Gerald Fletcher, a cardiologist with the Mayo Clinic who is familiar with the survey.
The big waists seen in Canadian men -- a median of about 100.3 centimetres, meaning half the men were bigger and half smaller -- is a huge matter of concern, he said.
The measure is taken halfway between the lowest rib and the hip bone, which is higher than the waist on a pair of pants.
"The abdominal obesity they looked at -- that's the waist circumference -- is another type of obesity which is even more devastating" than overall weight, he said. Recent research has found not all fat affects the body the same way. Low-slung fat on the hips and thighs is less likely to cause health problems than fat in the abdomen, which dramatically raises the risk of diabetes and heart disease.
But the study goes beyond pointing to Canadians as a special case.
Obesity is nearly a worldwide problem that threatens to wipe out gains made in treating heart disease and diabetes, reports Balkau.
"The study results show that excess body weight is pandemic (apart from southern and eastern Asia), with one-half to two-thirds of the population overweight or obese by current definitions," she writes. And her team concludes that diabetes and heart disease rates are closely tied to waistline size, not merely to weight.
Several people may have the same BMI but different waist sizes, and in every country the ones with the biggest stomachs are in worse health, the study finds.
"For men, each increase of approximately 5.5 inches (14 cm) means an increased frequency of about 35 per cent for heart disease and for women an increase of approximately six inches (15 cm) equates to a 40-per-cent increase for heart disease," the study authors report.
The average age of patients surveyed was 48 years, although in Canada the group was slightly older, averaging 51 years.
At least Canada doesn't score worst in the crucial category of heart disease. That distinction belongs to a group of Eastern European countries including Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Poland and Slovakia, possibly related to high rates of smoking in Eastern Europe.
In those countries, an average of 27 per cent of men and 24 per cent of women were found to have cardiovascular disease.
In Canada, 16 per cent of men in the survey, and eight per cent of the women, had cardiovascular disease.
Tatyana
Elite Mentor
mightymouse69 said:
I was never arguing that obesity is not caused by diet and exercise (environment).
It is never just the genetics or the environment, it is always an interaction of the two.
I was stating some of the new interesting theories about how our biochemistry/physiology was geared to a particular 'survival' environment which does not exist anymore.
So really, it is the current obesity inducing environment that is playing havoc with the genetics that we do have.
I apologise if that was not made clear to you.
As for bias, there is always bias in all research, I would assert it is impossible for anyone to be entirely objective.
We are arguing the same thing, just a wee bit of difficulty with the language
KickNitRight
New member
Mr. dB said:
Yes, they have rolls of void! Rolls!
Tatyana
Elite Mentor
Am J Med. 1998 Aug;105(2):145-50.
The etiology of obesity: relative contribution of metabolic factors, diet, and physical activity.
Weinsier RL, Hunter GR, Heini AF, Goran MI, Sell SM.
Department of Nutrition Sciences, University of Alabama at Birmingham, 35294, USA.
Three major factors modulate body weight: metabolic factors, diet, and physical activity, each influenced by genetic traits. Despite recent advances in these areas, the prevalence of obesity in Westernized societies has increased. In contrast to monogenic animal models and rare human genetic syndromes, predisposition to common forms of obesity is probably influenced by numerous susceptibility genes, accounting for variations in energy requirements, fuel utilization, muscle metabolic characteristics, and taste preferences.
Although recent increases in obesity prevalence cannot be explained by changes in the gene pool, previously "silent" genetic variants may now play important permissive roles in modern societies.
Available data suggest that variations in resting energy expenditure, thermic effect of food, and fuel utilization exist but, by themselves, are unlikely to explain the onset of obesity.
Regarding diet, the best available trend survey data indicate that fat and energy intake have fallen, in this and other Westernized countries.
Diverging trends of decreasing energy intake and increasing body weight suggest that reduced physical activity may be the most important current factor explaining the rising prevalence of obesity.
Subsistence in modern societies requires extreme adaptations in previously useful energy-conserving diet and exercise behaviors.
Recognizing the difficulties in sustaining energy-restricted diets in the presence of fast foods and social feasts, the current trend toward increasing body weight is not likely to be reversed solely through recommendations for further reductions in energy intake.
In all likelihood, activity levels will have to increase in response to an environment engineered to be more physically demanding.
PMID: 9727822 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
The etiology of obesity: relative contribution of metabolic factors, diet, and physical activity.
Weinsier RL, Hunter GR, Heini AF, Goran MI, Sell SM.
Department of Nutrition Sciences, University of Alabama at Birmingham, 35294, USA.
Three major factors modulate body weight: metabolic factors, diet, and physical activity, each influenced by genetic traits. Despite recent advances in these areas, the prevalence of obesity in Westernized societies has increased. In contrast to monogenic animal models and rare human genetic syndromes, predisposition to common forms of obesity is probably influenced by numerous susceptibility genes, accounting for variations in energy requirements, fuel utilization, muscle metabolic characteristics, and taste preferences.
Although recent increases in obesity prevalence cannot be explained by changes in the gene pool, previously "silent" genetic variants may now play important permissive roles in modern societies.
Available data suggest that variations in resting energy expenditure, thermic effect of food, and fuel utilization exist but, by themselves, are unlikely to explain the onset of obesity.
Regarding diet, the best available trend survey data indicate that fat and energy intake have fallen, in this and other Westernized countries.
Diverging trends of decreasing energy intake and increasing body weight suggest that reduced physical activity may be the most important current factor explaining the rising prevalence of obesity.
Subsistence in modern societies requires extreme adaptations in previously useful energy-conserving diet and exercise behaviors.
Recognizing the difficulties in sustaining energy-restricted diets in the presence of fast foods and social feasts, the current trend toward increasing body weight is not likely to be reversed solely through recommendations for further reductions in energy intake.
In all likelihood, activity levels will have to increase in response to an environment engineered to be more physically demanding.
PMID: 9727822 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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