Exodus and anyone else who uses power factor training

[Deleted member 33117]

Just curious about the results that anyone else who uses power factor training is getting. I and several of my friends are using it and getting great results. Of course several of the guys at the gym look at us like we are jackasses when we train. Honestly a couple of them have tried to ask me how I could be making gains when I "really don't know how to train". They find it difficult to argue with me about it though when after 10+ years of training they look slightly more fit than the average person, espcially when I'm 5'9" 225 and about 8% after 3 years of training, and I only lift twice a week. Outside of my small circle of friends who use the system, I don't know anyone else who does, so it would be interesting to chat with anyone on here who uses it.

 

[Sebass67]

What is this system of training? can anyone describe it/explain it?

 

[Deleted member 33117]

Peter Sisco & John Little (both currently write for Ironman magazine) designed the system. I'll try to give you a very brief explaination of the basics. Its a variation of the HIT system (both quote menzer and jones in their writtings). Due to a number of scientific studies on fiber recruitment they concluded that range of motion has absolutely nothing to do with fiber recruitment. Imposed demands (ie the workload over time that you are attempting to lift) are the primary factor in muscle fiber recruitment. It has also been proved that a muscle is capable of recruit more fibers when closer to peak contraction. I know a guy with a doctorate in excersice science who has verified these facts in a long conversation I had with him. In this system of training you only move the weight through the strongest range of motion (4-6 inches, or less of travel), which happens to be near peak contraction. All sets, as well as the entire workout are timed using a stop watch. Weight moved, or better yet force applied, over time which Peter Sisco calls your power factor (measured in ibs per minute) is the method by which you measure increases and decreases in workload. Ideally, your power factor should increase on each lift every time you workout. The system is designed to give you methods to increase it from workout to workout. I'll give you an example. Lets say you do 4 sets of bench press in the power rack (so that you can set your range of motion). You move the wieght through your strongest range of motion, say the top 5 inches of the lockout. You start the stopwatch at zero. With 405 ibs you complete 60 reps at 0:55 on the watch. 2nd set 405 ibs for 40 reps, at 1:45. 3rd set 425 ibs for 35 at 2:30. Your 4th set you get 12 reps with 455 at a final finish time of 3:50. You add up all of the weight & reps. You have moved ibs in 3 minutes 50 seconds. 60835 ibs/ 3.83 minutes = 15884 ibs/min. That would be your current power factor. According to the theory behind this system, once you have generated a given level of intensity when training a given muscle, retraining that muscle again with the same level of intensity will generately minimal increases in size & strength. So if the next time you bench, if you do not increase your power factor beyond 15884 ibs/minute, you have wasted a workout. Really, I don't have room to give a lengthy explaination, so I had to leave the majority of the info out. However, I have tried to give you the most basic of information in order to answer your question.
So... any other power factor trainees out there? I really don't want to turn this into an arguement of the effectiveness of the system, I and several of my friends are experiencing the gains first hand, I simply want to compare notes with others who are currently using it, or who have in the past.

 

[MOD]

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I tried it twice, and each time I lost size. I had nothing but bad experiences with PFT. If you could tell me about your current routine I'd like to see what you're doing different.

 

[Exodus]

im so sorry that i didnt see this post untill now. i would have responded sooner.

me personally, i love static contraction and power factor training.

but since it allows you to use so much weight. i find that im not capable of sustaining this workout for long periods of time. its not hard to figure out. im a 400lb squatter, parallel, 315 atf. so when i can put 800lbs on the bar unrack it, walk out and do 10 reps going 4-5 inches. its doesnt take long for my cns(central nervouse system) to get fried. i dont find i get size growths from this training. the main benefits are cns heavily taxed, strength increase when i go to full range of motion, and increased vascularity.

in other words........ im a bodybuilder....... i use powerlifting and static, power factor to help me become a stronger bodybuilder. therefore a bigger bodybuilder.

so you like it?

X

 

[argent]

Everyone who I talked to that used it said it was the worst routine ever. They said they lost a ton of strength and looked like shit. A main problem with PFT is that the short ROM used limits the amount of work being done. Work is defined as Force x Distance. Power is defined as Work/Time. If you are using a 3" ROM as specified in that training, the amount of actual work goes down significantly.

 

[casualbb]

I used SCT for 4 months and I was DEFINITELY NOT happy with it. Nothing happened to me.

When it comes to some of the fundamentals of their training, Sisco and Little are just wrong.

1) They think this: Train-Recover-Grow. I actually read Sisco one time on a website say that, "Say one has an intense workout on monday that will begin to trigger growth on thursday. But then one goes and performs another workout on wednesday. You've just lost thursday's growth!" That IS WRONG. Growth occurs over the 48 hours post-workout, REGARDLESS of whether or not you work out again.

2) Work, or "Power Factor" as the end-all of measuring sticks. Sorry, but muscular growth has no relation to work except in the sense of the actual weight lifted. Sisco says "If you can manage to hold the same weight for longer, you will trigger more growth!" No. From the body's perspective, 13x225 is really almost indistinguishable from 11x225.

3) The whole "recruit maximum fiber at peak contraction" thing may be true, but there's more to weightlifting than fiber recruitment. It has been shown medically that the eccentric portion of any movement is the most conductive to growth. When that eccentric is only four inches there's not much of a growth stimulus. Also, for some exercises, such as the lat pull, the strongest range occurs when the muscle is MOST STRETCHED instead of at its peak contraction. They're contradicting themselves.

4) They over-simplify the program. They claim that the huge weights hoisted in the strong range overload the muscles. Well, not exactly. As one nears lockout on many exercises (bench press, leg press, etc) the load is shifted to the joint system. Overloading the muscles? Methinks not.

I'm sorry to anyone who loves this system, but I paid $30 for his frickin' e-book, had no results, and was then unable to get a refund. So I'm a little pissed off.

-casualbb

 

[MOD]

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casualbb , how often were you training using SCT? he says to cut down training to once every 2 weeks or less...

 

[casualbb]

I started at 2x/week and eventually dropped down to 1x/week.

-casualbb

 

[argent]

I'm out about $50 in hard copies myself. If anyone wants them PM me. Ijust use them asv coasters right now.

 

[guldukat]

A couple of thoughts.

First, Finaplix (or Finny, as in Winny? ), it's too bad people at your gym don't understand what you're doing. Ignore them. Unfortunately, though, there are lots of lifters who have never heard of PFT and exclusively do partials, so they give guys like you a bad name. For instance, there are muttonheads at my gym that do partials on everything--light partials, no less. One of these fellas, a big dumb smooth guy, must've done 10 sets with 4 or 500 on the leg press using jerky quarter-reps when I needed to get in and do a knees-to-elbows set with 1,000. Of course, when he finally finished, he strutted around like he was the shit; and here I was, thinking, wow, I'm only "okay" doing 950-1,000 for a set.

Ahhh...if I was still a hot-headed 18 year old I would've...been less restrained LOL.

Anyway, I've had some experience with HEAVY partials, and I found them to be excruciatingly intense. It's my opinion that extremely hard muscular contractions, along with progressive overload of course, are the best way to ensure growth. A rep that you can finish in a half-second, with far less than maximal effort, won't do you a lot of good...but a rep that, in spite of giving it everything you've got, takes ten seconds to get up...now that's something that'll yield growth.

Partials provide a means by which we can get these kinds of contractions, and with a whole lot of weight to boot. I think in the short-term, they can be a very effective means of adding size for that reason...but for reasons of which I'm not entirely aware, I do *not* think training exclusively with partials is good long-term.

Why?

For one thing, my own experience makes me believe this. When I did partials, I found that, after I came back to full-range training, I had gained *zero* strength. Nada. I didn't *lose* much, if any, mind you. And yes, I did gain some new size almost immediately. The trouble is, after the first three workouts or so, the noticeable size gains stopped altogether. All of the partial-based workouts I did after that did nothing to further my development or to increase my full-range strength, even though I attempted to use ever-heavier poundages.

Many things work great initially, not for the oversimplified virtue of simply "being different" necessarily, but great nonetheless. That's what I think static and partial-only styles are best for: to accrue a little new size, then move on to more conventional training.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

I do find it interesting that you did not gain full range of motion strength. I've made huge gains in strength over the last 5 months on partials, noticed a slow, but steady increase in size after about the first month. I've noticed a signifigant increase in full range of motion training too (Periodically I've gone back to check my full range of stregth by doing a set of two for a couple of lifts). My full range close grip bench has increased the most while training with partials. Before changing training styles I had never close grip benched more than 275 for 5 reps, after using pft for 14 weeks I tried to do a couple of full range sets and got 365 for 6. I do 495 for partials. Perhaps we are all wired differently.
Also I must agree, distance should be a factor, however, I believe you will find that you can move a given weight much further while doing partials.
Exodus, yes I like it, of course I have the same problem. Using the heavy weight, 20-30 seconds between sets and very short breaks between different lifts is extemely taxing. After 30 minutes I'm completely exhausted, and I usually have to go home and sleep for a couple of hours. The next day everything I worked is sore.
MOD, I'm currently training once every 4 or 5 days here is what I did this week (I don't remember reps, but I remember what weights I used, and I'm doing some static work too).
Workout #1:
-Deadlift: two sets with 405, one set with 495, one set with 725.
-Hammerstength pull down: four sets with 8 plates
-Bench press: two sets with 495
-Smith machine military press: one static hold with 405 (2 inches below lockout)
-Concentration curl (on flat side of standing preacher bench): static hold with 120 ibs dumbell.
Workout #2:
-Leg press: 4 sets with 1495 (all I can get on the machine, so frist set was well over 100 reps, taking 15 seconds between sets brings it down fast)
-Toe press on leg press machine: 2 sets with 1360
-Close grip press: 2 sets with 405, 2 sets with 495
-Preacher curl: 3 sets with 165

 

[Deleted member 33117]

MOD, also, my current stack and nutruition should be taken into account.
Diet: 2200-2500 cals/day, 60-70% fat (primarily olive oil, I use lean cuts of meat to keep sat fat low), 30-40% protien. Bear in mind I only lift every 4-5 days so I'm in ketosis most of the time.
Starting anywhere between 10 am and 12 pm (the day before my workout) I start carbing up. I eat anywhere from 5000-7000 cals that afternoon. Approximately 60% carbs (all very low gi), 20% protein, 20% fat. I hit the gym at 7:00 am. Prior to training I take in about 300 grams of carbs, 50 grams of protien (keep fat under 10 grams). Post workout I drink one gallon of skim milk & any other carbs as needed (due to the insulin). I have found through trial and error that lactose is MY best choice with insulin. I've never had a problem with going hypo using skim milk with my insulin. 4 hours after my workout its back to low cals, no carbs.
suppliments:
multi-vitamin (one with first meal of day, one before bedtime)
3 grams of vitamin c (spread out over three doses)
1000 iu vit e
25,000 iu beta carotene
one b complex
12 g of fish oil
stack:
tren 150 mg/day
winny 12 mg/day (I hate winny, so I only use it 4 weeks at a time, at low doses, but it makes a noticable difference in hardness & vascularity even at 12 mg, currently 2.5 weeks into winny cycle)
humalin-R 12 iu post workout (so less that twice a week on average)

 

[skaman607]

Hey BBF don't worry what others say, if it works for you, do it

 

[MOD]

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One more question BBF. Do you feel your strength reflects your size? I spoke to this one guy who was using PFT and was partial benching 500lbs for 20, he said that his size didn't reflect his strength since he was 5'8 and only 168, yet he was putting up so much weight. so I'm just curious how your size gains compare to your strength gains.

 

[Deleted member 33117]

MOD, yes, I think my size reflects my strength. I'm only doing 515 for 20 using partials (15 ibs more than the individual you mentioned), but I'm 5'9" 227, and just a little over 7% bf.
So, was this guy at least putting on size as a result of working with such heavy weights?