EU to Ban Vitamin and Mineral Supplements...

[myasshurts]

Looks like the UK bros may be getting there vitamin C on the black market!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,790733,00.html

 

[bronco944]

is that site legit? some pretty damn good prices there if it is. Whos used it?

 

[Him1]

Completely unbelieveable... I wonder what their grounds are?

 

[Baby Gorilla]

Not a surprise....

Think socialized medicine is a good idea still?

It's all a plot to put people in an early grave. Good nutrition is the best way to never need a doctor. Make it as expensive as seeing one, and people won't use it and the medical profession pockets the money.

Unfortunately, wait until you see a doctor, and you might already be one foot in the grave. Doctors and hospitals kill more people than most any disease you can name out there just from making human error in their judgment calls.

 

[danielson]

Completely unbelieveable... I wonder what their grounds are?

im guessing its the potential risk from hi dose supps

i can understand it in some cases maybe.....u can buy vitamin E in concentrations where 1 pill has 4900% times the RDA/RNI! since it is a fat soluble one its slightly harder to excrete and i;ve read that it can build up to toxi levels in the liver if used too much

also some of the herbs i;ve read dangers on too. the arguement against kava kava seems to be on shakey ground on the basis of that article, but i;ve read stuff on ecchninea (i'll be fucked if i can be bothered on how to spell it ) being unsuitable for use for more than 12-14days etc

i DONT think its enough for an all out ban or even a partial one.....just maybe better warnings, labelling etc

 

[cockdezl]

im guessing its the potential risk from hi dose supps

i can understand it in some cases maybe.....u can buy vitamin E in concentrations where 1 pill has 4900% times the RDA/RNI! since it is a fat soluble one its slightly harder to excrete and i;ve read that it can build up to toxi levels in the liver if used too much

also some of the herbs i;ve read dangers on too. the arguement against kava kava seems to be on shakey ground on the basis of that article, but i;ve read stuff on ecchninea (i'll be fucked if i can be bothered on how to spell it ) being unsuitable for use for more than 12-14days etc

i DONT think its enough for an all out ban or even a partial one.....just maybe better warnings, labelling etc

This argument has been the fodder of the medical community for years as a reason why supplements should be controlled, and it has more holes than Swiss Cheeze.

Granted any substance can be poisonous, since it is the dose that defines a poison. But you must put things in perspective. The supplement industry, whether vitamin or herbal, has far lower number of serious incidents than the OTC pharmaceutical industry. If the logic was potential overdose, then aspirin and acetaminophen should have been pulled years ago, since Tylenol kills people every year.

Also, the medical community often "postulates" problems with herbs and vitamins, with no support as a reason for their control. An old line that I remember was that high dose single amino acid supplements could throw the amino pool out of balance and cause problems. There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim, but it has survived for years. Not to mention the continuous claims that there is no regulations in the supplement industry, and the potential problem of shaddy suppliers. Never mind the problems that regulated pharmaceutical companies have had over mis-dosing drugs, some of which have the need for strict doses.

The supplement industry, even with the problems that have occured, still has performed exceptionally well considering the number of ways that they could potentially hurt people. This is protectionism in every way. The medical community knows that many people try to self treat many ailments, and making them either illegal or fall under the cover of medical treatment increases the numbers that are dependant on them.

As for fat-soluble vitamins, the problematic ones are D and A, which very few D toxicities occur yearly, and A is rarely sold in high dose retinol/al forms anymore, since most companies favor the pro-vitamin A, beta-carotene. Vitamin E is very innocuous, high doses may decrease clotting times.

 

[danielson]

This argument has been the fodder of the medical community for years as a reason why supplements should be controlled, and it has more holes than Swiss Cheeze.

Granted any substance can be poisonous, since it is the dose that defines a poison. But you must put things in perspective. The supplement industry, whether vitamin or herbal, has far lower number of serious incidents than the OTC pharmaceutical industry. If the logic was potential overdose, then aspirin and acetaminophen should have been pulled years ago, since Tylenol kills people every year.

whoa there nelly. i never said i agreed with it either.....but thats the arguement im sure they will be using, and someone asked why they would think it.

but, it does have some merit. the supplement industry is different to the OTC meds situation in that potential side effects may not manifest themselves for some time. also herbal remedies dont necessarily carry the same perception of danger amongst their users. which is why i think better labelling should suffice, and better education of those who sell it. also given that some supplements may be sold in dosages that may icrease risk to long term side effects (mega dosing vitamin C leading to increasedvascular damage as an example)....labelling and education to the fact that these health supps are still potent chemicals is prudent. banning, probably isnt unless in extreme cases

Also, the medical community often "postulates" problems with herbs and vitamins, with no support as a reason for their control. An old line that I remember was that high dose single amino acid supplements could throw the amino pool out of balance and cause problems. There is no evidence whatsoever for this claim, but it has survived for years. Not to mention the continuous claims that there is no regulations in the supplement industry, and the potential problem of shaddy suppliers. Never mind the problems that regulated pharmaceutical companies have had over mis-dosing drugs, some of which have the need for strict doses.

mmwahahah.....if only u had seen the article on european supps producers, as a US resident u wouldnt have. they (major supps companies) had been sticking n lower amounts of supps than on the labelling, had been doing it for months/years and new about it

and it wasnt just one company. a bit of regulation couldnt hurt surely

The supplement industry, even with the problems that have occured, still has performed exceptionally well considering the number of ways that they could potentially hurt people. This is protectionism in every way. The medical community knows that many people try to self treat many ailments, and making them either illegal or fall under the cover of medical treatment increases the numbers that are dependant on them.

As for fat-soluble vitamins, the problematic ones are D and A, which very few D toxicities occur yearly, and A is rarely sold in high dose retinol/al forms anymore, since most companies favor the pro-vitamin A, beta-carotene. Vitamin E is very innocuous, high doses may decrease clotting times.

well, i doubt they are that worried about the supps industry. people will always rely on them....a lot oftheirconcern is genuine in that the supps are unnecessary, make people negate trying to gain the vitamins from elsewhere. they;ve survived with the supps industry for a long time now, i doubt it will make a difference. not to mentiion this stems from the EU....one suspects its their over meddling nature. i doubt their paranoia about not beng needed is behind it, its just speculation

hmmm, they might have been talking about vitamin A but im pretty sure they meant vit E.

 

[cockdezl]

whoa there nelly. i never said i agreed with it either.....but thats the arguement im sure they will be using, and someone asked why they would think it.

I wasn't arguing that you were making these claims, since I have heard them in various forms here in the US also.

but, it does have some merit. the supplement industry is different to the OTC meds situation in that potential side effects may not manifest themselves for some time. also herbal remedies dont necessarily carry the same perception of danger amongst their users. which is why i think better labelling should suffice, and better education of those who sell it. also given that some supplements may be sold in dosages that may icrease risk to long term side effects (mega dosing vitamin C leading to increasedvascular damage as an example)....labelling and education to the fact that these health supps are still potent chemicals is prudent. banning, probably isnt unless in extreme cases

I don't believe that any of the "potentials" that you mentioned are viable reasons. First, there are few long term effects that can be controlled for, since this same problem would be evident in pharmaceuticals, and yet there are very few OTC pharmaceuticals that are being scrutinized the way the supplement industry is. The AMA always yells that we don't know the "long term" effects of supplements, yet they prescribe recently approved medications to patients as if they were throwing beads at a Mardi Gras parade. Most herbs are well known in their pharmacological effects, since they have been used for centuries.

Second, labelling laws already apply to supplements.

mmwahahah.....if only u had seen the article on european supps producers, as a US resident u wouldnt have. they (major supps companies) had been sticking n lower amounts of supps than on the labelling, had been doing it for months/years and new about it

and it wasnt just one company. a bit of regulation couldnt hurt surely

This problem has occured here too. The shady companies will use cheap ingredients, such as whole root powders, instead of standardized extracts, but the larger companies such as Twinlab, Natrol, etc., have done good jobs at marketing and explaining the value of higher quality. Also, I think that people have become wary enough to read labels and compare products.

well, i doubt they are that worried about the supps industry. people will always rely on them....a lot oftheirconcern is genuine in that the supps are unnecessary, make people negate trying to gain the vitamins from elsewhere. they;ve survived with the supps industry for a long time now, i doubt it will make a difference. not to mentiion this stems from the EU....one suspects its their over meddling nature. i doubt their paranoia about not beng needed is behind it, its just speculation

I agree that many in medical community still have the archaic belief that supplements are simply "snake oils", but this is not a reason for the public to be punished, they are the ones in need of education. Their arguments are as weak as their intelligence.

hmmm, they might have been talking about vitamin A but im pretty sure they meant vit E.

You may be correct in what you read, but the science on vitamin toxicities does not support E as being overly toxic.

P.S. I have never heard of cardiovascular damage from ascorbate.

 

[danielson]

I wasn't arguing that you were making these claims, since I have heard them in various forms here in the US also.



I don't believe that any of the "potentials" that you mentioned are viable reasons. First, there are few long term effects that can be controlled for, since this same problem would be evident in pharmaceuticals, and yet there are very few OTC pharmaceuticals that are being scrutinized the way the supplement industry is. The AMA always yells that we don't know the "long term" effects of supplements, yet they prescribe recently approved medications to patients as if they were throwing beads at a Mardi Gras parade. Most herbs are well known in their pharmacological effects, since they have been used for centuries.

Second, labelling laws already apply to supplements.

well im just arguing for arguings sake really

it is true that many pharmacuticals long ternm effects arent all that well known yet they are clinically approved...but it is also concievable that many herbs etc havent been properly assesed for side effects in the long term etc, not to mention their potential interactions with newer western drugs the patient might be taking at the time. as non-prescribed health 'wares' go supplements are better regulated than say some traditional medicines so the EU would probably be better of focusing its efforts there

however many herbs/supps are released without there being any proven benefit to taking them, little research done in the way of studies and no long term effects seen. i think MSM falls into this category. true it may have helped people but its efficacy hasnt been proven. at least western medicines tend to have that done

This problem has occured here too. The shady companies will use cheap ingredients, such as whole root powders, instead of standardized extracts, but the larger companies such as Twinlab, Natrol, etc., have done good jobs at marketing and explaining the value of higher quality. Also, I think that people have become wary enough to read labels and compare products.

sadly they were actually writing on say a tub of vitamin C - 500mg....when in fact they knew the dosage was much less. they had been getting away with it for a while. thankfully the companies that were at it (and hopefully it was just them) were caught

I agree that many in medical community still have the archaic belief that supplements are simply "snake oils", but this is not a reason for the public to be punished, they are the ones in need of education. Their arguments are as weak as their intelligence.



You may be correct in what you read, but the science on vitamin toxicities does not support E as being overly toxic.

P.S. I have never heard of cardiovascular damage from ascorbate.

this is true as well. when someone mentioned acupuncture to a doctor 15 yrs ago they would have wrinkled up their nose and said something. now they may actually accpet its worth and may actually be able to refer you

members of western medicine can be arogant....maybe its justified due to its success in many acute cases of trauma/illness

which is why i do see some validity in their arguement, but dont think an outright ban on everyone is justified (i.e. me ) just because some chump might try and eat a tub of zinc and crap himself to death

as for the vitamin C ting, i do remember some researc on it. they showed doses above 500mg increased vascular damage in rats or something, i remeber posting on it on the supps board. it was just one research study however.

bottom line those supplements that are dangerous need to be labelled as such and warnings placed notifying you that they can interact etc etc. but a ban is governmnt getting to big for its own boots