ESTROGEN 101 Before you use anything, read this.

[Nelson Montana]

Wow, welcome back Nelson. How are things?


Jacob

Things are good bro. Thanks.

Needtogetass. My buddy Rick Collins wouldn't like me answering your question. : ) But it's no secret that the ethics of a lot of these guys has led to their arrest, if not their incarceration. (Though in some cases that wouldn't hurt my feelings). At any rate I don't want the thread to be about that. Let's stick with dealing with estrogen.

 

[jamesG]

basically you make a bunch of unsustantiated claims and then attack the person that points this out.

real expert material.

Chrysin, bioperine or not, does not work orally.

NOLVA does not just work in breast tissue, thats just what its used for primarily. Treatment of breast cancer.

Clomid does not affect formation of estrogen. Its a serm like nolva with different binding profile.

resveratrol is a weak aromatase inhibitor, but I like this compound for health reasons. Orally without a delivery system I would say that bioavailibility is low. thats why red wine works but capsules dont.

calcium d-glucarate increases metabolism of estrogens and anabolic steroids, at least according to the studies.

Proviron is not liver toxic, unless you can provide references otherwise.

Chrysin, bioperine or not, does not work orally.

with respect to avencosides, you do realize that lowering SHBG also increases free estrogen, since estrogen has a higher affinity for SHBG.

AIFM contains ATD and DHEA, neither of which is a diuretic. ATD, 4-hydroxyandrostenedione and formestane are proven aromatase inhibitors.

arimidex is the worst of the "big three" aromatase inhibitors. drys out my joints and affects libido without stopping gyno.

Femara- works, if I need it, this is the stuff. But i wont use it more than 3-4 weeks.

Aromasin- its what I use all the time, works great. No impact on libido or joints.

you reccomend 2 things cytogenx, which has not even been released and dermacrine which you have not tried. as well as post cycle, which is your product. doesnt that seem wrong to you?

as far as PCT, you reccomend products that you have not tried and are not proven to work over things like HCG and clomid which are.

I would say all in all that not only is this a blatant sales pitch but it contains false information that would lead to poor recovery and gyno for many that would beleive it.

 

[Selene]

THank you for sharing

 

[krishna]

This is may be common knowledge to a lot of vets but to many others, here's a very basic understanding of using anti-e's. This includes serms, aromatase blockers, etc. For now let's call them all anti-e's because that's what they're doing.

I will conciously avoid sounding too technical and keep it simple.

First, there was Nolvadex: This, in my opinion, is an outdated drug. It was never very good in the first place. Dan Duchaine, who was basically the guy who brought it to the bodybuilding communities attention (Dan was way ahead of his time) even admitted it kinda sucked toward the end. Nolva BLOCKS e, which in a sense means it can have a rebound effect. It also only blocks it at the breast site. So, if you have a propensity for gyno, Nolva may help, but you'd be better off changing what was causing the gyno in the first place. Rating: D-

Proviron: I was a big advocate of this drug for a long time but I think there are better choices now since Proviron is liver toxic and not good for long term use. Proviron reduces SHBG which allows for more free testosterone and more DHT. Estrogen can not survive in the presense of these two substances. Rating: C+

Clomid: Clomid is a weak estrogen which occupies the estrogen sites preventing the formation of excess estrogen. Great. Only there are two problems. Once; it has negative side effects on vision and mood. And two; the fact that it's an estrogen can cause an imbalance in some men resulting to what is essentially MORE estrogenic effects. It's also liver toxic.
Rating: For those it works for C-. For those it doesn't; F

Arimedex: The drug of choice in most cases. The only side effect is lowering of HDL but this is usually only is dosages that are completely unnecessary. Rating: A

Femara: (Letrozole) Similar to a-dex but has a negative effect on libido in some. Rating: C

Aromasan: Similar to a-dex but without the adverse effect on lipids, though may also cause a loss of libido in some which may be avoided if dosages remain low. Rating: B

Natural supps.

DIM: Works similarly to Clomid in that it's a weak estrogen. Works for some, has the opposite effect on others. Rating: C-

Indole 3 carbinol: Found in cruciferous vegetables. Works like DIM.
Rating: C-

Chrysin: Good, safe, but poorly absorbed. Absorbtion can be increased with the use of Bioperine or possibly transdermal administartion. "Post Cycle" uses Bioperine. "Dermacrine" uses a topical solution. Both have been shown to be very effective. Rating: B+

Procyanadin/Resveratrol: Two new entires that show a lot of promise in acting as aromatase inhibitors. Best option CyogenX. Rating: B

Calcium D Glucanate: Proven to stop estrogen from forming yet will not lower it to dangerous levels. Also has great potential as a anti cancer agent. "Post Cycle" also contains Calcium D Glucarate. Rating: A

Avenacosides A&B: These do not lower estrogen but they block SHBG which increases free testosterone (similar to Proviron). This not only prevents estrogen from forming but increases the amount of bioavailable testosterone in the bloodstream. Good for natural athletes but even better for those using gear to get the most out of it. Best choice. "Unleashed" (Of course) Rating: A


Pro-hormones. (6-OXO. AIFM, etc). Garbage. The work of amateur chemists. Real doctors laugh at this stuff. Expensive too. 6 OXO claims a 200% increase in testosterone which is insulting to the intellegence of the serious bodybuilding community. AIFM uses a mild diuretic which gives the user the belief that he lost "estro bloat." Ironically, this is the opposite of "Androsteine", created by the same hucksters, which increased estrogen causing water retention. This in trun made the users think they were gaining size! The people who make this stuff should be in jail. Oh, wait a minute...they are.

Recommendations

Always use the lowest amount of any drug to get the maximum effect.

Always add a natural substance to safely improve the effects of the drug regime.

For natties in-between cycles; "Post Cycle" along with "CytogenX" or "Dermacrine" are more than enough to keep excess estrogen at bay.

For those on HRT: 1/4 mg of a-dex 3X's a week plus low dose CytogenX, Dermacrine or Post Cycle.

For those on a cycle; Arimidex or Aromasan, whichever you feel works best for you. 1/2mg of a-dex a day is usually enough even for heavy cycles. The addition of "Unleashed" and "CytogenX" is recommended during the cycle and "Unleashed" and "Post Cycle" is recommended afterward.


There you have it. Some may disagree with a point here and there but that's basically the long and short of it. If more people understood these simple principles they'd be a lot less problems and misunderstandings about estrogen, preventing problems while on, and proper PCT.

Hope it helps.

Proviron is not liver toxic, and a-dex is too weak in most cases to do any good. Nolvadex definitely serves its purpose if estrogen build-up has already occured. It sounds like you're lumping each drug and its effects into one generalized category to compare them to eachother. This does not justify how each compound CAN and WILL be effective depending on the circumstances.

 

[Pikaberdot]

Way too much misinformation. Also extremely biased. Estrogen 101 gets an "F".

 

[Nelson Montana]

As always, when someone disagrees, either because they've been misinformed and don't want to actually deal with the truth, or the post wasn't what they wanted to hear, they attack the message by making assumptions. They argue minutea. They act tough. Easy to do when you're hiding behind a computer.

Okay, jamesG, you're up. YOU provide studies for each statement you made, and then clarify why you think the conclusions are correct. Then I want you to post your credentials, how many years experience you have, where you've been published, who you've spoken to directly in the industry and who endorses your work, who you've coached, what you've accomplished and while you're at it, include your real name and a picture as well. Then we can begin a debate on the issue -- in which case you'll be wrong anyway.

 

[odoyal rulez]

I refuse to believe a word of it based solely on the fact you plugged two products, one of which has been out only a month, and you've never used. Therefore to me your credibility means nothing.

 

[georgie24]

armidex suck's, i still got gyno on it!!!!

aromasin = A+

 

[jamesG]

I criticise your statements, you attack me. Without answering any of the criticisms.
sorry, I wont waste my time with someone like you. If people beleive your nonsense then that is their loss.

I could provide studies for all the above, though anyone can search pubmed and find the same. You made the claims, YOU back them up. I am not an expert, but it seems that even so, I know more than you.

have a nice day, internet tough-guy and keyboard guru.

 

[jamesG]

armidex suck's, i still got gyno on it!!!!

aromasin = A+

same with me.