Endocrinology - Severe HPTA Impairment

[MadCow1]

I am looking for information regrading methods utilized to recover HPTA among serious cases of suppression (i.e. no roids for years and it's just not coming back on its own).

I know there is a protocol out there using HCG, Nolv, and clomid for 3 month periods to stimulate production - I believe it's semi-common among endocrinologists treating BBers. Does anyone have a good link to the protocol or any solid information on this.

I have a friend who has been shut down so long (no roids in 5+ years and never a heavy user) that his Dr. has put him on permanent test replacement. I'd like to try to point him in the best possible direction.

PS: Please don't post if you don't have knowledge of this area. I'd prefer not to see information about standard clomid usage and how soon to take it post cycle since this matter is quite beyond that point.

Any insights are appreciated

Thanks,

MC

 

[icelandic]

Acutally many endos will avoid BBers like the plauge for numerous reasons. Age is the biggest factor here, as the younger you are the more resiliant to outside interference the HPTA is. HCG will do more damage than it will mitigate when off cycle. HCG just simulates the presence of luteinizing hormone which in turn stimulates the leydig cells in the testes to produce testosterone. When used to excess and without exogenous hormones in the body, it can make the testes insensitive to endogenous LH. Once that happens HRT is only available route. Clomid on the other hand 'tricks' the hypothalamus into pumping out it own LH.

So, how old is your friend? What was his last cycle, even if it was 5 years ago? Did he follow any post cycle regimen then? Not to seem pessimistic, but if natural test production hasn't resumed in five years, it sounds like a strong case for HRT.

 

[bigdelt69]

shut down for 5 years and he just now wants to do something about it?? Has the doc ex-rayed his pitutitary gland? If not he could possibly have a tumor. Sounds like long term HTR may be his only option.

 

[MadCow1]

He is 29 now.

Last cycle was test esters (maybe some dbol) total under 1000mg weekly. This was 5 years ago.

His doctor got him on HRT (general practioner). I am not convinced he has seen an endocrinologist or sought any type of real therapy. He seems to just take it and not think about it. He is a friend so I am exploring a better alternative.

He did make a comment that a Dr. told him that his pituitary had shrunk. Is this true, I don't know or maybe he misunderstood.

 

[Stillgoing]

I went to my general practicioner 4 months or so ago and got levels tested. My total test came out at 150. He immediately prescribed androgel to get levels up. He simply told me to begin taking the androgel to get my levels up. He never mentioned that this would result in me being on some form of testosterone replacement for the rest of my life. IMO this is extremely irresponsible. Maybe he didn't even know that this was the case??? I then went to a doctor knowledgable in bodybuilders & HTPA. He put me on HCG/nolv for 3/6 weeks respectively. My levels came up to 270. Still not high enough. I just went through it again, adding in clomid this time. I have been "off" for a week now, and, will get my levels retested next week. If I can't get my levels up further, I probably will go HRT. The relevance to your question is, I am trying these drugs to get my test levels up "naturally" before resorting to HRT. By the way, I'm 36yrs old. If you want me to further describe the program PM me, I'll be happy to provide more info.

 

[MadCow1]

That's exactly the info I am looking for. The protocol as well as any references or sources of information (there must be some somewhere) would be great.

<Stillgoing - I just pm'ed you>

 

[MadCow1]

bump for the night crew to see if anyone else is knowledgeable in this area.

Thanks

 

[Baby Gorilla]

I might have info soon (good I hope)....

After my last cycle, I've felt really shut down. Did Clomid then after hearing you can do it for several months safely, got more Clomid. I'm still on it, and after a second month, my balls seem to be getting bigger (one, at least). Problem is this darn cold weather doesn't always help (inhibits blood flow unlike summertime). I'll likely be using Clomid somewhere from 2.5 to 3 months total.

After I'm off the Clomid at least 30 days, I'm going to find a doc who can test my T-levels. I'll just tell him I'm concerned because of diminished gains, sex drive, and that I hear after 30 your T levels can drop dramatically...esp. if you've taken blows to the groin in the past. I do worry that one of my nuts just isn't getting bigger like the other one on the Clomid. I wonder if one of the "injuries" I've had in the past damaged my boys or not.

 

[Rogue Warrior]

There are many different opinions of using post cycle HCG.

I see it as a good way to prep the balls by waking up the ledwig cells prior to clomid or nolva. It makes the clomid do its thing better.

What is strange is that some say it does more harm than good post cycle, but when it comes time to see a Dr
its HCG time. Who to follow? A doctor or some of the steroid experts on this board.

 

[DrJMW]

I am looking for information regrading methods utilized to recover HPTA among serious cases of suppression (i.e. no roids for years and it's just not coming back on its own).

I know there is a protocol out there using HCG, Nolv, and clomid for 3 month periods to stimulate production - I believe it's semi-common among endocrinologists treating BBers. Does anyone have a good link to the protocol or any solid information on this.

This protocol is pretty standard and it works. If it doesn't work then your friend either has poor functioning testes and/or LH resistence. My recommendation: 2,000 U of HCG, IM, three times weekly for a total of three weeks. At the same time, use 50mg clomid and 20mg nolvadex daily. Use the orals for a total of six weeks. Try to get Testo levels checked--via blood test--during the last week of recovery. If normal, then the treatment succeeded. If abnormal, then HRT for life. Your friend would need to stop using the Test Gel to do this protocol--and if would be against the advice of his doc. He really needs to see an endocrinologist.