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emptywallet
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Anyone still have a back day, leg day, shoulder/traps day, ect anymore or? I've been reading up a bit on the 5x5, seems interesting.
Does anyone even do the one muscle group a week anymore?
- Thread starter emptywallet
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anotherbutters
New member
I'm sure the majority do, but that doesn't mean it's optimal. I haven't heard of anyone going back to their old one muscle group per day routines after trying full body workouts like the 5x5. Give it a go for a couple of months.
emptywallet
New member
I suppose it could be time for a change then.
djeclipse said:
I agree; I'm in my second week of the 5x5 SF routine and I was very skeptical at first. However, finishing up this week I have to say I'm sold. This program seems to be working very well.
I think it's a good thing to switch things up and shock your body. Keeping the same routine for years on end is unlikely to continue producing consistent gains.
super_rice
New member
everyone at my university gym...
silver_shadow
New member
everyone i know.... to lose weight, to gain weight, to cut up, for fitness.... if i ask them about it, they say their trainer told them to do this routine. it's hilarious actually... i just tell them "ok you just go ahead and do whatever it is that makes you happy".
Protobuilder
New member
I won't knock volume training b/c it seems to work for some people and there's some science supporting it, but personally, I enjoy the 5x5 "style," meaning that I like focusing on a few major compound exercises and targeting pretty much the whole body each workout, splitting the workout volume over several days (e.g., 5 sets for "chest" on 3 days of the week) rather than cramming it all into one day (e.g., 20 sets on "chest day"). It just "feels" better to me and fits my schedule better.
emptywallet
New member
I've been doing the same routine, yet changing the exercises completely. Basically I've been doing the one day a week thing, yet adding or taking away cardio, and completely changing all the exercises for the week...for a few years now. I'd like to start something different. I don't completely understand the different loading (?) and deloading phases, but I'm reading and getting the hang of it.
swordfish151
New member
Ive done the 5x5 before and love the program....im going to run it when i start my next cycle...but my question is this...is the 5x5 more for a powerlifter then a body builder routine? The program emphazises alot on the weights you lift..and meeting personal goals....I know alot will say with strength comes size...but im not really sure why the question "popped" into my head...Is the 5x5 more for the "natural" bodybuilder then the "juiced" bodybuilder?
Training is training. Hypertrophy is the body's response to increased heavy work demands which can be quantified by volume and intensity or workload (obviously the range is not super wide before you get into endurance but each variable has a fair amount of leeway). Progression in the lifts is what builds muscle over time, there's really no other way people have been able to quantify it. And really, what's the first thing you notice when you jump on the juice - you are able to lift more weight, perform more reps in a workout, and train more frequently and then suddenly you start growing. That right there should clue every roid user in the world into effective training and the value of progression and workload but BBing is still in the voodoo stage.
So it depends on what you want to do with your cycle. I consider heavy isolation focus as specializing on aesthetics while core lift focus as driving overall muscle gain. If you want the most muscle - you move to one side of the spectrum. If you want to work on detail, you hopefully go into maintenance and move to the specialization side. That's it in a nutshell. If a BBer wants to get big, his program can look like a 5x5. If he wants to maintain and really focus on bringing up weak points and perfecting symmetry, it might look quite a bit different.
Now as for something being a BBing program or not - well, if you want to do what most BBers do, you'll probably need a lot more drugs to help get the muscle on you since most retard the effectiveness of their bulking programs by layering all kinds of specialty isolation work on and not thinking about progression and driving it. Or - you can say that you are a bodybuilder because you are putting on muscle as quickly as possible, and you don't have to do their shit.
So it depends on what you want to do with your cycle. I consider heavy isolation focus as specializing on aesthetics while core lift focus as driving overall muscle gain. If you want the most muscle - you move to one side of the spectrum. If you want to work on detail, you hopefully go into maintenance and move to the specialization side. That's it in a nutshell. If a BBer wants to get big, his program can look like a 5x5. If he wants to maintain and really focus on bringing up weak points and perfecting symmetry, it might look quite a bit different.
Now as for something being a BBing program or not - well, if you want to do what most BBers do, you'll probably need a lot more drugs to help get the muscle on you since most retard the effectiveness of their bulking programs by layering all kinds of specialty isolation work on and not thinking about progression and driving it. Or - you can say that you are a bodybuilder because you are putting on muscle as quickly as possible, and you don't have to do their shit.
swordfish151
New member
I like bringing out madcow...Im not knocking the program..it worked for me...I was just wondering this: isnt bodybuilding all about aesthetics? and powerlifting about power and strength? So if someone wants to carve detail by doing curls, extensions or whathave you is that wrong? At the end of the 5x5 you may have a wide back, big chest and great big legs but no detail...Im curious to know how many have done the 5x5 while cutting...either way madcow i love the program..maybe im thinking to much into it...
If a BBer wants to get big, his program can look like a 5x5. If he wants to maintain and really focus on bringing up weak points and perfecting symmetry, it might look quite a bit different.
How would the above be different?
If a BBer wants to get big, his program can look like a 5x5. If he wants to maintain and really focus on bringing up weak points and perfecting symmetry, it might look quite a bit different.
How would the above be different?
There is no carving detail. Bodybuilding is about having nice shape and proportions, as much muscle as you want, and low bodyfat. The shape thing is basically all genetics. If you choose a nice assortment of exercises that develop the entire body, you'll almost certainly be about 90% or better - all you have to do is keep an eye out and focus on weak points or whatever every now and then. There is no carving detail - details is about having a lot of muscle (training) and low bodyfat (diet).
Powerlifting is about 1RM performance and that has a heavily neural component. It's not that very heavy weights are bad for hypertrophy - it's just that you can't do enough of it. But do not think that neural components cannot work synergistically to facilitate hypertrophy (this is the whole reason behind the infamous newbie gains). And in PL out of necessity there is higher rep work with more mechanical load because they can't only do 1RM stuff.
Hypertrophy is all about expanding the capacity of the body's musculature. This is why so many BBers make the switch to WSB or another dedicated strength program (well beyond 5x5) and experience much better gains. The reason is that, even though they aren't dedicated hypertrophy programs, they get the #1 hypertrophy thing very very right - get stronger at big lifts progressively. This is where the BBer fufu shit breaks down because so many people are doing all kinds of speciality work when the main goal in their head is to purely get big (granted some just want to refine what they have and get everything in 100% proportion - or do what they are able to with their genetics anyway).
You don't get bigger without getting stronger (a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle - it is adaptation to increased loads so obviously you need to focus on getting stronger albeit not necessarily 1RM but certainly 5RM or 5x5 or 10RM or 8RM or whatever). You can get stronger without getting bigger. Increase weights in big lifts and eat - this is all you need to build muscle over your whole frame. Everything else is minutia.
I think you need to look at these pictures to better understand that training is training. There is no special BBer training. It's all very much the same the same ballpark. Some guys want to hit home runs while others want to look pretty running bases in their thongs, both must learn to bat and hit the consistently or they will be sitting in the dugout. http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=1110
So it's not about 5x5 vs. something else. I'm just not sure you are understanding the hypertrophy mechanism and that bodybuilding is basically strength training (albeit not 1RM focus) with a diet component.
Powerlifting is about 1RM performance and that has a heavily neural component. It's not that very heavy weights are bad for hypertrophy - it's just that you can't do enough of it. But do not think that neural components cannot work synergistically to facilitate hypertrophy (this is the whole reason behind the infamous newbie gains). And in PL out of necessity there is higher rep work with more mechanical load because they can't only do 1RM stuff.
Hypertrophy is all about expanding the capacity of the body's musculature. This is why so many BBers make the switch to WSB or another dedicated strength program (well beyond 5x5) and experience much better gains. The reason is that, even though they aren't dedicated hypertrophy programs, they get the #1 hypertrophy thing very very right - get stronger at big lifts progressively. This is where the BBer fufu shit breaks down because so many people are doing all kinds of speciality work when the main goal in their head is to purely get big (granted some just want to refine what they have and get everything in 100% proportion - or do what they are able to with their genetics anyway).
You don't get bigger without getting stronger (a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle - it is adaptation to increased loads so obviously you need to focus on getting stronger albeit not necessarily 1RM but certainly 5RM or 5x5 or 10RM or 8RM or whatever). You can get stronger without getting bigger. Increase weights in big lifts and eat - this is all you need to build muscle over your whole frame. Everything else is minutia.
I think you need to look at these pictures to better understand that training is training. There is no special BBer training. It's all very much the same the same ballpark. Some guys want to hit home runs while others want to look pretty running bases in their thongs, both must learn to bat and hit the consistently or they will be sitting in the dugout. http://www.midwestbarbell.com/totalelite/index.php?showtopic=1110
So it's not about 5x5 vs. something else. I'm just not sure you are understanding the hypertrophy mechanism and that bodybuilding is basically strength training (albeit not 1RM focus) with a diet component.
He goes into a lot of detail in the thread. He did this after his back injury I think. Mainly it illustrates that training is training and muscle is muscle - it's just a matter of losing bodyfat to see all the details rather than doing something special to create it. All superheavy PLs have a great physique underneath (granted genetics will affect how pleasing it may or may not be) just a matter of leaning down to reveal it.
A
Anthrax Invasion
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carlsuen said:
You're here, you're queer, and that's okay.
KhorneDeth
New member
swordfish151 said:
You asked a question about someone doing the 5x5 while cutting so I figured I'd chime in. I switched to the single-factor 5x5 routine in late december and actually experienced the VERY best body-composition gains than I had in my entire 1.5 yr serious lifting career. Real quick:
-- My diet remained about the same (cal deficit, clean foods), and I lost just over 10lbs of bodyfat to 210. I don't measure %, which I should do I guess, but this equated to dropping a full pant size and ALMOST getting to see the top two abs for the first time in my life. Previous results had been about 30lbs lost over the span of 1.5 yrs. So 10lbs in 2 months was glorious to me, especially considering it spanned the xmas & new year holidays
-- I quit the smith and learned to front squat, as suggested by Madcow, Ripstone, and others. Even in a deficit, I went from barely being able to do 65lbs to hitting a 5 rep PR at 165 a couple weeks ago. This wasn't even a 5RM because that weight was still well within my capacity, so who knows what my true current 5RM in front squat is.
-- I had a moderate hamstring injury in the fall which really set me back with lowerbody work. My deadlift went from doing 5x325 down to struggling to put up 225 almost overnight. As of a couple weeks ago, my ham is fully healed and I'm nearly back to my working weight at 295, with plenty of progression left in the tank.
-- On previous one-a-week programs, I worked up to a very shaky PR of 5x225 on flat bench. I would actually dread "chest" day because I was honestly a little afraid to keep going -- didn't feel really prepared to bench heavy. Switching to the SF program where I'm benching twice a week, I'm much more confident in PR territory and feel very excited to push beyond that 225 "boundary".
-- Most importantly though, aside from the physical results, I've learned so much about effective programming and how load translates to performance; how to acheive steady progression in stagnant compound lifts and exactly WHY my previous routines hadn't really done it for me. I feel like I can tweak a routine intelligently in the future, rather than just throw a bunch of shit around and hope it sticks, or try to "fool" my muscles into exploding huge overnight. Bottom line: steady progressive strength gains using big and effective compounds while eating to support my goals = the changes I want to see.
These probably aren't stellar results in the grand scheme, but I'm EXTREMELY satisfied with the 5x5-style program. All my lifts are more solid than ever and steadily going up, while at the same time I'M more solid than ever and the bodyfat is steadily going down. And this has all been within a few months of single-factor fullbody training. To me, this has been as good or BETTER than many cases of newbie gains -- all coming 1.5yrs into it!
I'm not exaggerating when I say that Madcow has changed my life by bringing these principles and ideas and resources to the forefront. I know he's humble enough to not take full credit here, but I see it as solid truth. Maybe the 5x5 isn't "his" program, but he brought it to all of us here and I think it's made all the difference.
Give me another 4-6 months, and I can almost guarantee I'll have a truly beach-worthy body for the first time since I was born!! How's that for "just" a strength program? YAY!!
-- KhorneDeth
emptywallet
New member
This is all really wanting to make me try a single factor. Really.
emptywallet
New member
I am, I need to make sure I know the ends and outs of it, and that the knee is up to all the squatting. I'm pretty sure it'll be fine. I need to make sure I understand more about the program first, and the difference between dual and single. Some reading is in order. I'm deading and squatting now, but it's not like this program.
emptywallet
New member
Another thing, I've been lifting seriously (off and on between injuries) for the past 6 years or so. I've been everything from 160lbs to 205lbs with various bf levels inbetween. I'm thinking, it would still be better to do the single factor first, and then dual factor when that seems to slow down. Correct? I would not say in anyform I'm a novice, however, it's is SUCH A BIG CHANGE from what I do now, that I think single factor is the way to go first. I'm no stranger at all to the DL or squat, I've been doing that as long as I've been lifting. It's just going to be a huge change going from 5 days a week isolation to 3 days a week total body. What exactly are the huge main differences between dual and single. I can't seem to get a clear cut picture.
djeclipse
New member
Stop thinking about the 5x5 as a "powerlifting program" or giving it some other title that sounds anti body building. With the right diet stronger muscles are bigger muscles. It doesn't have to be just a bulking program as KhorneDeth has shown us.
I've been on the program for 5 weeks and have made some good strength gains, put on a lot of size (people keep mentioning it), all while staying the exact same weight (which was my goal). My only cardio is indoor soccer once a week and one or two 20min sessions the treadmill. I have lost fat while gaining strength and size, all while not really watching what I ate or trying to lose fat. My play has improved in soccer as I am a lot stronger and can push people off the ball, and my stanama has somehow increased.
Just give it a good fair try.
I've been on the program for 5 weeks and have made some good strength gains, put on a lot of size (people keep mentioning it), all while staying the exact same weight (which was my goal). My only cardio is indoor soccer once a week and one or two 20min sessions the treadmill. I have lost fat while gaining strength and size, all while not really watching what I ate or trying to lose fat. My play has improved in soccer as I am a lot stronger and can push people off the ball, and my stanama has somehow increased.
Just give it a good fair try.
emptywallet
New member
I'm not thinking of it as a PL program at all. Not even close. It's just a large change from what I have been doing. I'm fully aware of the ideas behind what your saying. You're preaching to the choir man. If I'm ever able to get to above 200 again, and still fit into these 34 jeans I have now, I'll be happy. Huh, it's really been about three years since my injury. I wonder if my pictures are still floating around on here from then.
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Protobuilder
New member
Everytime I see those Dave Gulledge pics, I'm just blown away. That dude is straight up superhero physique. LoL I curse my genetics daily . . .
Matt Reynolds' interview w/ Dave Gulledge -- http://www.readthecore.com/200601/matt_r.htm
Matt Reynolds' interview w/ Dave Gulledge -- http://www.readthecore.com/200601/matt_r.htm
swordfish151
New member
Great replies guys..and madcow....like i have said before..I love the program.....I realized something and your right...when it comes to lower body fat and "cutting" it really boils down to your diet....no matter what or how your lifting or what program your on...I cant wait to start the 5X5 again in my cutter...its going to be fun..to the poster that wants to start the 5x5...do yourself a favor and plan out the program...this helped me alot...meaning write it down and take it with you to the gym...the first time i ran the 5x5 this helped me gauge and keep track of my gains...good luck bro. and thank you madcow
psychedout
New member
emptywallet said:
Single factor 5x5 is gnarly bro. I would definetly recommend it. Its the funnest way I have ever trained.
BTW - I'm not saying you have to do 5x5 or it's the best program or anything. I'm just explaining why it works for the purpose of BBing (and a lot of times better than what most BBers are doing because they often don't have a clue). Tons of ways to skin a cat, I just use the 5x5 for examples because they are very effective but moreso because the structure is so simple it's intuitively easy to grasp and see what's going on.swordfish151 said:
emptywallet
New member
I've NEVER changed my training (abeit, adding a bit of cardio) when getting lean, it's all in what I've put in my mouth. I never changed rep schemes, anything. I always relied on the heavy compound lifts, and then whatever I was eating would take care of itself. I think this is going to be alot of fun and I'm going to enjoy it. I need to test out the knee a bit first. I'm squatting one time a week now, and that's light also, I'm just getting to where I can squat again after a few years. Knee feels much better, this damn cold weather here isn't helping though.
DZLS
New member
i guess i'm somewhere in the middle of all of this, cause i do not do my bodyparts once a week, except for legs...
i hit my legs once a week, twice if you count deads as a leg workout...
other larger muscle groups i try and hit every 4-5 days (chest, back)
smaller groups like calves, bis, tris and shoulders i'll bang every 3-4 days...
swtiching to a 5x5 would be hard for me, cause my brain is programmed for volume...
i have to read up though to make sure i know what this all entails...
i hit my legs once a week, twice if you count deads as a leg workout...
other larger muscle groups i try and hit every 4-5 days (chest, back)
smaller groups like calves, bis, tris and shoulders i'll bang every 3-4 days...
swtiching to a 5x5 would be hard for me, cause my brain is programmed for volume...
i have to read up though to make sure i know what this all entails...
emptywallet
New member
eat big said:
Post it up.
silver_shadow
New member
i'm guessing it is something along the lines of needsize's 5x5 though we'll only once he posts up.Madcow2 said:
eat big
New member
Madcow2 said:
No, it's nothing like that. Here it is.
This is from 2004:
Saturday September 4
Squats 12x185 10x195 8x205 6x225 4x245
Leg press 12x180 10x190 8x225 6x270
Leg ext. 12x80 10x100 10x110
SLDL12x60 10x60 10x60
Calf machine 4 sets of 12x55
Standing calf 4 sets of 120x12
Sunday September 5th
Military press 12x25 10x35 8x45 6x50
Front raise 12x20 10x25 10x25
Rear laterals 3 sets of 12x25
Shrugs 3 sets of 12x 185
Preacher curls 10x35 10x37.5 10x37.5
Dumbbell curls 10x40 8x45 6x50
Hammer curls 3 sets of 10x140
Reverse curls 3 sets of 10x60
Abs
Tuesday September 7th
Flat bench 10x185 8x195 6x205 4x215 2x225
Inc bench 12x135 10x145 8x155 6x165
Cables 3 sets of 10x80
Inc cable flye 3 sets of 10x55
Pressdown 12x150 10x150 10x150
Oh ext 3 sets 10x110
Machine 12x60 10x70 10x70
Abs
Thursday September 9, 2004
Pulldown 2 sets of 12x150 2 sets of 10x160
BB Rows 2 sets of 12x135 2sets of 10x145
NG Pulldown 12x140 2 sets of 10x150
Machine Row 12x140 2 sets of 10x150
DB Row 3 sets of 10x60
Pullover 3 sets of 10x10
Barbell curls 12x20 10x22.5 8x25 6x27.5
DB preacher 3 sets of 10x30
21’s 21x85 21x90
Standing calf 5 sets of 15x130
Friday September 10th, 2004
Arnold press 12x40 10x45 10x45
Lateral raise 12x20 3 sets10x25
Leaning Shrugs 3 sets 12x60
CG bench NT do 4 sets of 135
French Press NT do 4 sets of 30
Dip 10x25 8x35 6x45
Abs
This is from this past week:
Friday February 3, 2006
Flat Bench 5x5 with 275
Inc Db 5x5 with 80
Decline Bench 3x12 with 175
Cable Flye 3x12 with 42.5
Inc DB Flye 3x12 with 45
Calves
Saturday February 4, 2006
Very sore from chest
Smith Press 5x5 with 185
Upright Rows 3x12 with 85
DB Press 3x12 with 45
T Bar Row 3x12 with 90
Machine Row 3x12 with 180
Cable Single Row 3x12 with 60
Abs and obliques
Sunday February 5, 2006
Squats 5x5 with 315
Leg Press 5x12 with 6 plates
Leg Extensions 4x12 with 160
Seated Curls 5x12 with 150
SLDL DB 3x12 with 70
Calves and lower back
Monday February 6, 2006
CG bench 5x5 with 230
Dips 4x20 with 45
Pressdown 4x12 with 75
Tri Machine 4x12 with 150
Barbell Curls 5x5 with 37.5
Cable Curls 4x12 with 65
Spider Curls 3x12 with 35
DB hammer preacher 3x12 with 30
Abs
Wednesday February 8, 2006
Deadlifts 5x5 with 345
WG Pulldowns 3x12 with 170
NG Pulldowns 3x12 with 160
Pullover Cable 3x12 with 52.5
Machine Press 3x12 with 160 -170 nt
Lateral Machine 3x12 with 85
Rev FLye 3x12 with 15
Abs
Here's what my current routine is:
http://i1.tinypic.com/o752fc.jpg
Here's what I look like at 19 yo and 5'8" at 240 lbs.:
http://i1.tinypic.com/o74u85.jpg
Any tips to switch it up are welcomed.
eat big
New member
DZLS said:
That's what everyone tells me. The problem is I don't know what I want to do. I want to be able to lift a shitload of weight, and be huge, but everyone tells me to cut down. I mean I would look better cut down but I want to be just huge and massive. I'm getting there. Once I get to the desired size, then I might cut.
You can see pictures of me at 195 here.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=427286
Here's a picture of me at 240:
http://i1.tinypic.com/o7pylg.jpg
I've got a good base and all. I stopped creatine so I'm trying to drop water. I haven't lost any weight since going off of the creatine. Do I look fat or obese? I know I'm probably north ot 20%bf.
eat big said:
That was what I was saying. You might be using 5 sets of 5 reps in your program but the program is not based off or similar to any template related to Bill Starr or that genre - which when most people in the world say "5x5" that's what they are talking about. Sort of like someone calling their workout a tweaked version of Westside Barbell because they've included box squats as an exercise somewhere in there.
I'm just clearing up the genre point as an FYI not passing judgement on your program or your success (and if you are piling on muscle and getting strong - who cares how you lay it out because it's obviously working).
eat big
New member
Madcow2 said:
I'm thinking of creating a routine based on powerlifting. I started doing deads again and I absolutely love them. But yeah when I say 5x5 I do mean reps and sets not exercises laid out. I require a shitload of volume and food to grow at all. Believe it or not, I weighed 135 my sophomore year in high school. Now four years later, I weigh 240. Haven't grown an inch either.
