Do you count BCAAs towards your calories/protein?

[germaine91]

I will provide you with what research has to say about BCAA's:

Essential amino acid and carbohydrate ingestion prior to resistance exercise does not enhance post-exercise muscle protein synthesis. Fujita S, et al. J Appl Physiology. 2008 June 5.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

In the second study posted, BCAA + high protein diet performed better, however not without significant confounders. The experimental group receiving the BCAA's received 3x protein overall than the control group. So to say that the BCAA group performed better was simply a matter of adequate vs. inadequate intake considering the control group didn't even receive the RDA recommendation. Therefore, this was a faulty trial in BCAA's favor.

The non-BCAA group actually performed better on the hand grip & vertical jump component's of the study although not statistically significant.

A protein rich diet is full of BCAA's. Layne Norton at a ISSN conference presented that 3-4g Leucine may be optimal for providing maximum protein synthesis. This can be obtained through 1.5-2 scoops Whey, 6-8 oz animal protein, 1.5 cups cottage cheese, etc. See the trend?

One way to take BCAA's is between meals because of the refractory response of muscle protein synthesis based off of these two studies which are plagued with cofounders:

Latency and duration of stimulation of human muscl... [J Physiol. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

The second study had a control group take 64g P per day while the experimental group consumed 109g P per day with the BCAA. Again, we have a comparison of not BCAA vs whole food protein diet, but rather another plagued example of adequate vs. inadequate intake. So of course the study is in favor of BCAA's.

These claims to take amino's between meals are based off a protein stat hypothesis. All research of which is short & acute in nature.

Whey causes greater satiety than amino's which have been shown in clinical studies to potentially stimulate appetite. This is not good for one in strict dieting conditions. Not to mention whey has beneficial compounds that are missing from BCAA's (lactoferrin, immunoglobins, etc).

I would go ahead & list the amount of BCAA's listed in protein rich foods, but I hope one understands that they will receive an adequate amount of BCAA's if they consume an adequate amount of protein.

 

[Headholio]

Where does it mention the protein intake? ^^^

It doesn't. Therefore, it would be logical to conclude that protein deficiency is not a criteria in the validity of the results.

The study shows a benefit of BCAA's. Don't disregard it because it goes against your previous belief.

 

[Headholio]

Essential amino acid and carbohydrate ingestion prior to resistance exercise does not enhance post-exercise muscle protein synthesis. Fujita S, et al. J Appl Physiology. 2008 June 5.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum


Your link doesn't work. Here is a good link for that study:
Regulation of Protein Metabolism in Exercise and Recovery: Essential amino acid and carbohydrate ingestion before resistance exercise does not enhance postexercise muscle protein synthesis

It isn't even a study about BCAA's. Essential AA's are not the same as BCAA's.

 

[germaine91]

It doesn't. Therefore, it would be logical to conclude that protein deficiency is not a criteria in the validity of the results.

The study shows a benefit of BCAA's. Don't disregard it because it goes against your previous belief.

How is protein deficiency not a criteria? BCAAs are proteins.... Did you read my previous post?

Here's a quote from Alan Aragon:

"This is the so-called "protein stat hypothesis". Note the word hypothesis. In a nutshell, sustained blood amino acid elevations run into a refractory point, where muscle protein synthesis decreases despite the sustained elevation in AAs (& even despite mTOR activation). So, the hypothesis applied within the context of our discussion is that causing quick, marked increases & subsequent rapid drops in extracellular amino acid levels (via dosing free-form AAs) might be able to circumvent this refractory response seen in sustained AA levels.

Sounds good, right? BUT. This is still a hypothesis that's based on acute (immediate-effect, not long-term) and infusion (intravenous) data. We're looking at circumstantial bits & pieces, not a complete picture. This research did not measure effects on size, strength, or muscle retention over the long term. At best, this data is hypothesis-generating, and far from conclusive. Also keep in mind that the literature cited (Bohe et al, 2003) has some fricking hilarious stuff in its conclusion. I'll quote them:

"it appears that only modest amounts of dietary amino acids would be needed to achieve maximal stimulation of the muscle anabolic processes (i.e. for adults of average weight, 55-75 kg, 0.260 mg kg/hr x 2 hr, or of the order of 30-40 g of protein). This is probably somewhat lower than the current FAO/WHO/UNU recommendation of 0.8 g kg/day and much lower than that of 1.2 g kg/day proposed by some workers for the elderly (Campbell et al. 2001)."

The Paddon-Jones study is another commonly cited tidbit by those hanging on to the hope that free-form AA dosing between meals is The Ticket. BUT. The problem is - other than the trial's short-term nature - the treatment imbalance crucially confounds the applicability of the results. The supplemented group ended up with a total of 45g EAA and 90g CHO above and beyond the control group. Does it really surprise you that this group showed greater protein synthesis? Another design flaw that everyone who cites this study misses is that the non-supplemented control group's protein intake totalled 64g for the day, while the supplemented group averaged 109g. It not only was a matter of treatment imbalance, but it essentially became a comparison of insufficient protein intake versus barely adequate intake, even by sedentary standards. Bottom line: you are hinging your beliefs on an optimistic hypothesis that's marketed as Almighty Proven Fact by the supp companies.

 

[Headholio]

One way to take BCAA's is between meals because of the refractory response of muscle protein synthesis based off of these two studies which are plagued with cofounders:

Latency and duration of stimulation of human muscl... [J Physiol. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI

This is also not a study about BCAA supplementation.

And this link doesn't work:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

 

[germaine91]

This is also not a study about BCAA supplementation.

And this link doesn't work:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

Exogenous amino acids stimulat... [Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...nel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

 

[germaine91]

Sometimes when I copy and paste my links they don't work for some reason. They should now.

 

[germaine91]

You do realise that food contains BCAAs? Why would 5g of 3 amino acids from pills trump a food, eg whey, that contains 20g mixed AA (which includes 5g BCAA + another 5g of the rest of the EAA if we're talking about whey).

 

[Headholio]

You do realise that food contains BCAAs? Why would 5g of 3 amino acids from pills trump a food, eg whey, that contains 20g mixed AA (which includes 5g BCAA + another 5g of the rest of the EAA if we're talking about whey).

Yes of course. But different AA's can do different things by supplementing individually. For example, wouldn't you say that supplementing with Arginine is different than eating a complete protein with the same arginine content?

So, the question is, does the scientific data confirm that BCAA supplementation provides beneficial effects different from equivalent protein ingestion?

 

[Headholio]

Here's a good full text article

Exercise Promotes BCAA Catabolism: Effects of BCAA Supplementation on Skeletal Muscle during Exercise