Do you believe in Near Death Experiences?

[theoak01]

I believe that anything like that is possible,and I find it fascinating

 

[FreakMonster]

I watched a show recently on NDE's and it told the story of an atheist who had an NDE. He died in the hospital, then got out of his body, and walked toward some doctors who were calling him. (he didn't realize he was dead yet) The doctors led him down a hallway then suddenly turned on him and started beating him, tearing his flesh off and the hospital turned into a dark place where he could hear cries of agony, the "doctors" were actually demons. I won't go into too much detail but he eventually he cried out for God which seems to hurt the demons. He then saw blinding light and came back to life. The experience was so real and so powerful that he became a Christian!

 

[HUCKLEBERRY FINNaplex]

WHOA

If you have a chance,grab a book on Astral Traveling.You will be blown away at the unknown possibilities that await us.

 

[sk*]

I watched a show recently on NDE's and it told the story of an atheist who had an NDE. He died in the hospital, then got out of his body, and walked toward some doctors who were calling him. (he didn't realize he was dead yet) The doctors led him down a hallway then suddenly turned on him and started beating him, tearing his flesh off and the hospital turned into a dark place where he could hear cries of agony, the "doctors" were actually demons. I won't go into too much detail but he eventually he cried out for God which seems to hurt the demons. He then saw blinding light and came back to life. The experience was so real and so powerful that he became a Christian!

Either that, or he just hillucinated.

-sk

 

[FreakMonster]

Re: Re: Do you believe in Near Death Experiences?

Either that, or he just hillucinated.

-sk

He was clinically dead. How can a dead brain produce hallucinations?

Also if it was just a hallucination, how could it have affected his soul so deeply as to change him from an atheist to a Christian?

 

[FreakMonster]

WHOA

If you have a chance,grab a book on Astral Traveling.You will be blown away at the unknown possibilities that await us.

Sounds interesting. Can you give an example of what awaits us?

 

[sk*]

Re: Re: Re: Do you believe in Near Death Experiences?

He was clinically dead. How can a dead brain produce hallucinations?

Also if it was just a hallucination, how could it have affected his soul so deeply as to change him from an atheist to a Christian?

I don't know about the death thing. Death isn't a black and white thing that people believe it to be. If I am not mystaking, death is measured by weather the heart if functioning or not. What about the mind? I am sure it can function a good amount of time after the heart stops.

[Also, philosophically speaking, I don't believe the mind ever dies ... but I will leave this out for now.]

Anyway, the hillucination obviously affected him enough to change his belief. I suspect deep down he feared (perhaps not the right word) god, and in tough situations he changed his mind. "Tough" meaning where he thought he was about to die.

-sk

 

[FreakMonster]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Do you believe in Near Death Experiences?

I don't know about the death thing. Death isn't a black and white thing that people believe it to be. If I am not mystaking, death is measured by weather the heart if functioning or not. What about the mind? I am sure it can function a good amount of time after the heart stops.

[Also, philosophically speaking, I don't believe the mind ever dies ... but I will leave this out for now.]

Anyway, the hillucination obviously affected him enough to change his belief. I suspect deep down he feared (perhaps not the right word) god, and in tough situations he changed his mind. "Tough" meaning where he thought he was about to die.

-sk

You must be talking about"residual electrical activity" when you say the mind doesn't die. Yeah....right, residual electrical activity would not be enough to produce a complex hallucination. Hallucinations require manipulation of seretonin and dopamine in the brain. This is an EXTREMELY complex process. The receptors could not be active enough to produce a complex, ORDERED hallucination or dream. AND how could you even be conscious of a hallucination IF YOUR DEAD, lol.

 

[sk*]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Do you believe in Near Death Experiences?

You must be talking about"residual electrical activity" when you say the mind doesn't die. Yeah....right, residual electrical activity would not be enough to produce a complex hallucination. Hallucinations require manipulation of seretonin and dopamine in the brain. This is an EXTREMELY complex process. The receptors could not be active enough to produce a complex, ORDERED hallucination or dream. AND how could you even be conscious of a hallucination IF YOUR DEAD, lol.

You question is a funny one. How can you see things if you are dead?

You are assuming that there is such a thing as a soul.

The most logical explanation is, that somehow, he hilucinated and made those images in his mind.

-sk

 

[rsnoble]

I hate to be not believe in this shit, as Id prefer something else after I bite the big one, but my personal opinion of this is that theres still some minor shit goin on in your brain for a few moments. It's just a fucking dream.

 

[DcupSheepNipples]

Been there but pure hell is what I saw! I'm glad Satan gave me some more time before he has the Angel Of Death complete his mission!

 

[spin721]

We will all find out the truth one day...and when we are all in Heaven, we will still be posting on this board!

 

[rsnoble]

We will all find out the truth one day...and when we are all in Heaven, we will still be posting on this board!

Do you think they'll have internet connection in hell??

 

[DeepZenPill]

I haven't had a Near Death Experience in this sense, but I should have died many times. The fact that I've escaped death so many times makes me believe in a higher power and a purpose on this earth.

I'm sure I'm going to die a shitty death though. My body is obviously not made to last very long. Seems like I have to overcome great struggles to do something great.

 

[Rex]

I almost drowned when I was 12/13. I was down in VA Beach, waves were pretty rough. I got hit by a big one, and was knocked on my ass and slammed my head on the ground. I got covered by water. At first it was dark, I saw what was my life flash before my eyes, then the water became clear, and I could see what the sun looks like from underwater.

At that time I felt at great peace. Not a care in the world. I then heard someone say "Not now. It's not your time yet". Next thing I know another wave throws me on the shore, and I gasped for air. Haven't been afraid to die since.


I have had dreams where people I know have died. Within 72 hours it comes to be. Not necessarily the way I dreamed them to die, but the person would die. I didn't have anything against the person, as a matter of fact their death is the last thing I would ever hope for.

 

[Robert Jan]

your sight going black starting at the outside, and the light still there appearing bright, is a scientifically explained result of a lack of oxygenous blood flow to the brain.

 

[Imnotdutch]

Re: Re: Re: Do you believe in Near Death Experiences?

He was clinically dead. How can a dead brain produce hallucinations?

Also if it was just a hallucination, how could it have affected his soul so deeply as to change him from an atheist to a Christian?

Clinical death and brain death are two very different things.

Clinical death is declared 6 minutes after somatic death (when cardiac activity and respiration cease).

For brain death to be declared then behavioural and reflex motor responses must be absent for 12 hours. If this period has not passed then the brain can not be considered dead.

So a person could be declared clinicaly dead even though the brain was not dead. Hence hallucinations are possible.

 

[Imnotdutch]

Re: Re: Re: Do you believe in Near Death Experiences?

Also if it was just a hallucination, how could it have affected his soul so deeply as to change him from an atheist to a Christian?

Lets see.........he had a hallucination. That hallucination was open to interpretation and happened to refer to God (something that is a common topic to come across in life so it is not suprising that it came up). The patient had to make some sense of this and the natural argument was that God exists (God apparently saved him from demons). This assumes that the patient was not prepared to accept that what was seen was a hallucination.

 

[Mengy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Do you believe in Near Death Experiences?

You are assuming that there is such a thing as a soul.
-sk

I personally believe that we do have souls, and that they live on after death. For myself, it is one explanation of how and possibly why ghosts exist.

Has anyone here ever had an out of body experience? I believe that OBE’s are our souls walking outside of the body; of course there is no direct PROOF of any of this…

 

[Spartacus]

Do you think they'll have internet connection in hell??

no,but they have this really cool rock station

 

[Spartacus]

could a person who has been blind their entire life have an out-of-body experience in which they "look down at themselves"?

 

[FreakMonster]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Do you believe in Near Death Experiences?

Clinical death and brain death are two very different things.

Clinical death is declared 6 minutes after somatic death (when cardiac activity and respiration cease).

For brain death to be declared then behavioural and reflex motor responses must be absent for 12 hours. If this period has not passed then the brain can not be considered dead.

So a person could be declared clinicaly dead even though the brain was not dead. Hence hallucinations are possible.

This might be one of the ways for brain death to occur, but not the only one. Check this out:

http://www.transweb.org/qa/asktw/answers/answers9509/braindeath.html

The following is from the NDE web. I believe it effectively discredits the notion that NDE's can be explained away by "hallucinations".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Where is Consciousness Not?

Alexander Graham Bell, inventor of the telephone, was urged by his family to seek psychiatric evaluation. His insistence the human voice could be sent great distances through a wire caused them concern over his mental health.

If Bell's family had seen a modern television receiver in operation they would have really been surprised. This form of transmitting and receiving data without wires was yet to be discovered.

Alexander Graham Bell, and his family would have believed the television receiver was the source of the images and sounds it presented. That the images/sounds were stored somewhere within, and different groups shown when the position of the "channel knob" was adjusted. Bell might even have removed the cover to look for them, trying to discover how the thing worked. But, no matter how hard or long he examined the television receiver he would not have found the images and sounds it presented stored within.

Science has a similar problem with the human brain. Your body is a "tool of communication" for your consciousness (the real you) to use while exploring the physical realm. No matter how hard or long scientists look in the brain for things like consciousness, memory, mind, personality, dreams, NDEs, OBEs, etc. they will not be found. The brain is not the source of these events. There is no proof that the Near Death Experience, or any other event for that matter, originates within the brain. Nothing has been found stored there. Stimulating the brain at different points to produce different events doesn't prove any of those events are stored within the brain. Just as adjusting (stimulating) the "channel knob" on a TV doesn't prove the images/sounds produced are stored within the TV.

Albert Einstein was one of the most intelligent and prolific contributors to the field of science in the twentieth-century. His brain was donated to science for studies of how he acquired such great intelligence. But researchers found that Einstein's brain was smaller than most, and contained nothing unusual. It did, however, contain a larger number of synapses, the minute space between one nerve cell and another nerve cell, through which nerve impulses are transmitted from one to the other. He had more "connections" than the average person, more "channels" for his consciousness to use. The more you use your brain, the more synapses develop.

Scientists are looking for a biologically-based trigger to explain the NDE and other consciousness events. They often say; "We know it is there, we just haven't found it yet." The truth is, they don't know it's there. Obviously, in order to know it's there, it would need to be found. So, without any biological evidence whatsoever, some scientists continue to publicly declare NDEs biological. This behaviour is unfair to Near Death Experiencers, characterizing them as witless, while passing misinformation about NDEs to the general public.

The search for a biological basis of consciousness has been going on for more than a hundred years without any results. I wonder how many more years will pass before science realizes the brain is not the source of consciousness. The brain did not create humanity.

So, if you've had a Near Death Experience and someone tells you it's just a local brain thing, be sure to ask them for proof. There is no evidence NDEs originate in the brain. Then explain to them there is considerable proof the NDE doesn't originate in the brain. That it happens independent of brain and body during clinical death.



Where is Consciousness, the Proof?

Dr. Michael Sabom is a cardiologist whose latest book, Light and Death, includes a detailed medical and scientific analysis of an amazing near-death experience of a patient named Pam Reynolds. She underwent a rare operation to remove a giant basilar artery aneurysm in her brain that threatened her life. The size and location of the aneurysm, however, precluded its safe removal using the standard neuro-surgical techniques.

She was referred to a doctor who had pioneered a daring surgical procedure known as "hypothermic cardiac arrest." It allowed Pam's aneurysm to be excised with a reasonable chance of success. This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life.

Pam was participating in an Atlanta near-death study by Dr. Sabom at the time of her standstill operation. As her operation was being performed, she experienced an NDE. Her remarkably detailed out-of-body observations, during her surgery, was later verified to be very accurate

For practical purposes outside the world of academic debate, three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in Pam's surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.

But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests - her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. Interestingly, while in this state, she encountered the "deepest" NDE of all Atlanta Study participants.

Some scientists theorize that NDEs are produced by brain chemistry. But, Dr. Peter Fenwick, a neuropsychiatrist and the leading authority in Britain concerning NDEs, believes that these theories fall far short of the facts. In the documentary, "Into the Unknown: Strange But True," Dr. Fenwick describes the state of the brain during an NDE:


"The brain isn’t functioning. It’s not there. It’s destroyed. It’s abnormal. But, yet, it can produce these very clear experiences ... an unconscious state is when the brain ceases to function. For example, if you faint, you fall to the floor, you don’t know what’s happening and the brain isn’t working. The memory systems are particularly sensitive to unconsciousness. So, you won’t remember anything. But, yet, after one of these experiences [an NDE], you come out with clear, lucid memories ... This is a real puzzle for science. I have not yet seen any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact."

The Pam Reynolds account was described here because of its extensive documentation. It is by no means the only NDE account proving the survival of consciousness. There are dozens of other well documented experiences and hundreds more without documentation.

 

[FreakMonster]

You want more proof?
REUTERS Limited

June 29 - A British scientist studying heart attack patients says he is finding evidence that suggests consciousness may continue after the brain has stopped functioning, and a patient is clinically dead.

The research, presented to scientists last week at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech), resurrects the debate over whether there is life after death and whether there is such a thing as the human soul.

"The studies are very significant in that we have a group of people with no brain function ... who have well-structured, lucid thought processes with reasoning and memory formation at a time when their brains are shown not to function," Sam Parnia, one of two doctors from Southampton General Hospital in England who have been studying so-called near-death experiences (NDEs), told Reuters in an interview.

"We need to do much larger-scale studies, but the possibility is certainly there" to suggest that consciousness, or the soul, keeps thinking and reasoning even if a person's heart has stopped, he is not breathing and his brain activity is nil, Parnia said.

He said he and colleagues conducted an initial yearlong study, the results of which appeared in the February issue of the journal Resuscitation, The study was so promising the doctors formed a foundation to fund further research and continue collecting data.

During the initial study, Parnia said, 63 heart attack patients who were deemed clinically dead but were later revived were interviewed within a week of their experiences.

Of those, 56 said they had no recollection of the time they were unconscious and seven reported having memories. Of those, four were labeled NDEs in that they reported lucid memories of thinking, reasoning, moving about and communicating with others after doctors determined their brains were not functioning.

Among other things, the patients reported remembering feelings of peace, joy and harmony. For some, time sped up, senses heightened and they lost awareness of their bodies. The patients also reported seeing a bright light, entering another realm and communicating with dead relatives. One, who called himself a lapsed Catholic and Pagan, reported a close encounter with a mystical being.

Near-death experiences have been reported for centuries but in Parnia's study none of the patients were found to have received low oxygen levels, which some skeptics believe may contribute to the phenomenon.

Skeptics have also suggested that patients' memories occurred in the moments they were leaving or returning to consciousness. But Parnia said when a brain is traumatized by a seizure or car wreck a patient generally does not remember moments just before or after losing consciousness. Rather, there is usually a memory lapse of hours or days.

"With cardiac arrest, the insult to the brain is so severe it stops the brain completely. Therefore, I would expect profound memory loss before and after the incident," he added.

Since the initial experiment, Parnia and his colleagues have found more than 3,500 people with lucid memories that apparently occurred at times they were thought to be clinically dead. Many of the patients, he said, were reluctant to share their experiences fearing they would be thought crazy.

The brain itself is made up of cells, like all the body's organs, and is not really capable of producing the subjective phenomenon of thought that people have, he said.

Parnia speculated that human consciousness may work independently of the brain, using the gray matter as a mechanism to manifest the thoughts, just as a television set translates waves in the air into picture and sound.

"When you damage the brain or lose some of the aspects of mind or personality, that doesn't necessarily mean the mind is being produced by the brain. All it shows is that the apparatus is damaged," Parnia said, adding that further research might reveal the existence of a soul.

 

[FreakMonster]

I don't even need all this evidence. I have had many out-of-body experiences which are very similar to near death experiences. I've witnessed events in the physical world that were later verified after the experience. I have existed as a detached soul, this I know for sure. I have no proof, but I know it's true because I have experienced it and it is as real as the computer sitting in front of you right now.

I have had both out-of-body experiences, AND true hallucinations from hallucinogenic drugs (which I used a lot in the past but don't any longer), and I can tell you from first hand experience, there is a BIG difference between the two.

All this evidence probably doesn't mean anything to you but it has had a huge effect on me, the way I look at life, and death. That's something that a mere hallucination cannot do.

 

[DeepZenPill]

I've had out of body experiences from way too much Robitussin

 

[Tiervexx]

Re: Re: Do you believe in Near Death Experiences?

Either that, or he just hillucinated.

-sk

Right. Parts of the brain are still active even after people are mostly dead.

 

[Tiervexx]

Freakmonster. How exactly did those studies confirm that there really was no brain activity? the activity could be extremely weak but unless you cut it open it would be very hard to monitor what is going on in the deepest parts of it.

 

[Tiervexx]

All this evidence probably doesn't mean anything to you but it has had a huge effect on me, the way I look at life, and death. That's something that a mere hallucination cannot do.

Mental hospitals are filled with people who have had all of their views dramatically changed by hallucinations. What makes you so sure that yours are any different?

 

[sk*]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Do you believe in Near Death Experiences?

I personally believe that we do have souls, and that they live on after death. For myself, it is one explanation of how and possibly why ghosts exist.

Has anyone here ever had an out of body experience? I believe that OBE’s are our souls walking outside of the body; of course there is no direct PROOF of any of this…

So every time you take some good weed you have your soul walk out of you?

You people make no sence.

-sk

 

[sk*]

Dude, if you think I am gonna read that you are on crack.

-sk

 

[Mengy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Do you believe in Near Death Experiences?

So every time you take some good weed you have your soul walk out of you?

You people make no sence.

-sk

How the hell did weed come into this? I don't smoke weed or do any other kind of drug, hell I rarely drink alcohol. You are the only one not making sense.

 

[Imnotdutch]

All this evidence probably doesn't mean anything to you but it has had a huge effect on me, the way I look at life, and death. That's something that a mere hallucination cannot do.

Depends upon how you decide to interpret that hallucination.

 

[Robert Jan]

obviously nobody read my post?

is it cuz of the kalashnikov? is that it?

 

[Tiervexx]

your sight going black starting at the outside, and the light still there appearing bright, is a scientifically explained result of a lack of oxygenous blood flow to the brain.

I remember hearing this too.

Great post.

 

[FreakMonster]

Freakmonster. How exactly did those studies confirm that there really was no brain activity? the activity could be extremely weak but unless you cut it open it would be very hard to monitor what is going on in the deepest parts of it.

I guess you don't read very well. Why don't you read this again. I think it explains it pretty clearly.

For practical purposes outside the world of academic debate, three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in Pam's surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.

But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests - her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. Interestingly, while in this state, she encountered the "deepest" NDE of all Atlanta Study participants.

Can you explain how she had clear lucid memories when her brain was found dead by all 3 clinical tests?

 

[FreakMonster]

Mental hospitals are filled with people who have had all of their views dramatically changed by hallucinations. What makes you so sure that yours are any different?

You can't read very well can you? I think your brain is a little fogged up thinking about that cute boy in your class.

Like I said before there is a BIG difference between OBE and a hallucination. The hallucination never changed any views I had about life and death but the OBE sure did.

 

[Tiervexx]

You can't read very well can you? I think your brain is a little fogged up thinking about that cute boy in your class.

Like I said before there is a BIG difference between OBE and a hallucination. The hallucination never changed any views I had about life and death but the OBE sure did.

I am sure that many mentaly ill people feel the same way. Good for you.

 

[Tiervexx]

I guess you don't read very well. Why don't you read this again. I think it explains it pretty clearly.

For practical purposes outside the world of academic debate, three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in Pam's surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.

But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests - her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. Interestingly, while in this state, she encountered the "deepest" NDE of all Atlanta Study participants.

Can you explain how she had clear lucid memories when her brain was found dead by all 3 clinical tests?

This does not prove that nothing is going on in the brain. The signals that the EEG monitors could just be much lower than normal because of the lack of blood flow, but the brain might still be functioning on some level.

 

[FreakMonster]

This does not prove that nothing is going on in the brain. The signals that the EEG monitors could just be much lower than normal because of the lack of blood flow, but the brain might still be functioning on some level.

LOL, Ok whatever you say bro. You tell me that this is not evidence but you can't even answer my question. Also I'd like to see any kind of evidence that shows the brain is functioning at any level after brain death.

I really think you just follow me around because I don't accept your sexuality.

 

[FreakMonster]

This may sound unrelated but there was a discovery channel program that described how some Voodoo priests made a poison that would make you seem to be dead according to all instruments because your heart beat and brain activity was so low, but you would wake up after a while.

This shows that it might be harder than you think to detect what is going on in the body.

Voodoo Priests? LOL Not much proof there.

 

[Tiervexx]

LOL, Ok whatever you say bro. You tell me that this is not evidence but you can't even answer my question. Also I'd like to see any kind of evidence that shows the brain is functioning at any level after brain death.

I really think you just follow me around because I don't accept your sexuality.

This may sound unrelated but there was a discovery channel program that described how some Voodoo priests made a poison that would make you seem to be dead according to all instruments because your heart beat and brain activity was so low, but you would wake up after a while.

This shows that it might be harder than you think to detect what is going on in the body.

 

[Tiervexx]

Voodoo Priests? LOL Not much proof there.

You can't read well can you? I did not say that it was magic like they think it is. It is a toxin that shuts down much of the body for a long time.

The discovery channel program described how it worked in detail.

 

[FreakMonster]

You can't read well can you? I did not say that it was magic like they think it is. It is a toxin that shuts down much of the body for a long time.

The discovery channel program described how it worked in detail.

Like I said, not much proof. I'd like to see it in detail.

 

[Imnotdutch]

I think that you misunderstood what he said. Measuring electrical impulses in a live brain is a clumsy procedure.......there is much room for improvement.

You referred to an EEG. This is done using electrodes placed on the skin. As such, there is a lot of material between the electrode and where the impulses are happening. You think this technique is adequate for dtermining absence of ALL impulses? A similar argument can be put forward for AEPs if I am not mistaken. I'm also wondering what brain stem functioning has to do with hallucinations.........the brain stem does not contain any parts that might lead to involvement in hallucinations as far a sI am aware.

Non-blood flow is a 'marker'. It is a guideline only.

None of these techniques tells you what is happening deep inside the brain. You can not rule out all brain activity using these 3 techniques.

LOL, Ok whatever you say bro. You tell me that this is not evidence but you can't even answer my question. Also I'd like to see any kind of evidence that shows the brain is functioning at any level after brain death.

I really think you just follow me around because I don't accept your sexuality.

 

[FreakMonster]

I think that you misunderstood what he said. Measuring electrical impulses in a live brain is a clumsy procedure.......there is much room for improvement.

You referred to an EEG. This is done using electrodes placed on the skin. As such, there is a lot of material between the electrode and where the impulses are happening. You think this technique is adequate for dtermining absence of ALL impulses? A similar argument can be put forward for AEPs if I am not mistaken. I'm also wondering what brain stem functioning has to do with hallucinations.........the brain stem does not contain any parts that might lead to involvement in hallucinations as far a sI am aware.

Non-blood flow is a 'marker'. It is a guideline only.

None of these techniques tells you what is happening deep inside the brain. You can not rule out all brain activity using these 3 techniques.

Using EEG is a required medical test to make the diagnosis of brain death. These tests measure brain activity. How accurately I don't know since I am not a physician, but do you really think minute brain activity that these tests cannot detect can produce vivid memories?

Also how can you explain when someone falls to the floor and becames unconscious? They don't remember anything. But there have been hundreds of reports of people remember vivid visions after an NDE.

 

[Imnotdutch]

This may sound unrelated but there was a discovery channel program that described how some Voodoo priests made a poison that would make you seem to be dead according to all instruments because your heart beat and brain activity was so low, but you would wake up after a while.

This shows that it might be harder than you think to detect what is going on in the body.

You are talking about tetrodotoxin from puffer fish. It has been found in the powder that is used to poison people prior to them entering the zombified state.

Toxicon. 1989;27(4):473-80. Related Articles, Links


Evidence for the presence of tetrodotoxin in a powder used in Haiti for zombification.

Benedek C, Rivier L.

Institut de Medecine Legale, Universite de Lausanne, Switzerland.

A powder prepared by Haitian voodoo sorcerers for the making of zombis was extracted with acetic acid, the extract concentrated and applied to a small cation exchange column followed by elution with water and then acetic acid. The water and acetic acid eluents were analysed by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry and liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry. The analyses indicated the presence of an alkaline degradation product of tetrodotoxin, namely 2-amino-6-hydroxymethyl-8-hydroxyquinazoline, after base treatment, and of tetrodotoxin and an isomer on direct thermospray mass spectral activity.

PMID: 2728032 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Imnotdutch]

Using EEG is a required medical test to make the diagnosis of brain death. These tests measure brain activity. How accurately I don't know since I am not a physician, but do you really think minute brain activity that these tests cannot detect can produce vivid memories?

These machines are already measuring minute changes........they are working at the limits of what they can do when just detecting major changes in the brain.

 

[Tiervexx]

"You must spread your Karma around before giving it to Imnotdutch again. "

 

[Imnotdutch]

"You must spread your Karma around before giving it to Imnotdutch again. "

Story of my life lol

 

[Becoming]

First off, let me say I do not discount either side of this argument, just looking to input some information... I have seen many bad "science" interpretations in Reuters and similar, and I don't know how well regarded this journal "resuccitations" (sorry for the bad spelling) is. I do know that the toxin is real, though I don't know that people have dreams/etc while on it...

I think Imnotdutch is correct in saying that the equipment used is much more limited than you are willing to see. Those types of tests can in no way measure the firing of individual nerves/synapses within the brain. The action potential in these firings is only a miniscule change of 100mv (-70 to 30). To detect the firings of individual nerves, you wold have to attach leads to each end of the individual nerve to measure the differential. Second, there is no way to record when the memory "occurs" - what I means by that is you brain works so quickly, it could easily manufacture those memories either before or after the period of brain death, at which point you would remember it before or after... Third- memories themselves are not highly reliable as event records. There have been thousands of documented events where by people's memories have been significantly diffferent from what was more reliably recorded (from either electronic means, multiple eyewitness reports, etc) this can be due to any one of a number of stimuli including stress of an event...

All that said, I have some personal experiences that are almost the opposite in terms of OBE, etc.

I once was sleeping in college, and had a dream where I traveled to my girlfriends where she was having a conversation with one of our friends via the phone.... Funny thing is I saw that friend later that night, and he confirmed that he had that exact conversation with her that night (and I gave many details about what was said).

When my mom was young, she was sleeping, and had a dream her grandfather (who was not sick) came to her and told her he was leaving (dying). When she woke up in the morning, her parents told her they had some bad news and she told THEM what had happened.

I think this issue is a "you call it" you will never be able to prove it either way.

 

[Imnotdutch]

Good post Becoming.

 

[FreakMonster]

Depends upon how you decide to interpret that hallucination.

*yawn*
Let me ask you something, have you ever experienced an NDE or OBE and a true hallucination so you can compare the difference? If not then you have no personal experience to go by and are just throwing out opinion.

 

[Imnotdutch]

*yawn*
Let me ask you something, have you ever experienced an NDE or OBE and a true hallucination so you can compare the difference? If not then you have no personal experience to go by and are just throwing out opinion.

How would you know that an NDE or OBE is not a true hallucination? Just becuase it 'feels' different doesnt mean anything. Hallucinations can affect all senses. It would only take a subtle difference in which senses were involved and to what extents and it owuld 'feel' different.

As your brain, the very organ through which nervous impulses are interpreted as feelings, is involved.........anything can go in terms of 'feelings'.

You are just making the assumption that they are different things.........

 

[Tiervexx]

How would you know that an NDE or OBE is not a true hallucination? Just becuase it 'feels' different doesnt mean anything. Hallucinations can affect all senses. It would only take a subtle difference in which senses were involved and to what extents and it owuld 'feel' different.

As your brain, the very organ through which nervous impulses are interpreted as feelings, is involved.........anything can go in terms of 'feelings'.

You are just making the assumption that they are different things.........

Exactly If your brain produced the hallucination it can make you feel anything.

 

[FreakMonster]

How would you know that an NDE or OBE is not a true hallucination?

Because I have experienced both. It's more than just feeling, it's logic. Hallucinations can vary in form but have general characteristics. I have been studying them for 6 years, through academic research and personal experiences with LSD, mescaline, nitrous oxide, mushrooms, etc. etc. I have also researched OBE's and experienced dozens of them. My point is, I'm not speaking opinion, I'm speaking from experience and I'm telling you there are extreme differences between NDE's/OBE's and hallucinations.

You are just making the assumption that they are different things.........

I've made a very good argument that they are different things not only through relating my personal experience, but through the scientific evidence I've provided, yet the skeptic in you won't allow you to open your eyes to that.
I have never accepted the explanation that the brain is capable of producing coherent, structured consciousness with a flat EEG. If the consciousness were dependent on the brain, then as the brain shuts down, degrades or approaches death with a flat EEG, I would expect a corresponding erosion of the brains ability to support consciousness. So as portions of the brain lose their ability to function, logically the functioning of consciousness should also degrade. We should see a less structured, fragmented, incoherent experience ultimately ending in nothingness-if the consciousness emerges from the brain.

Instead with NDE accounts, we are getting exactly the opposite results-structured, coherent consciousness. Some express the experience as more alive and real than normal existence.

If you want to explain this away by a still unknown type of residual neural activity, you have to present parallels which involve normal (lucid) or heightened conscious mental activity and which can at the same time be satisfactorily explained by known residual neural activity.

 

[Imnotdutch]

Where is this very good argument again? I think I missed it.

You say we need to open ours eyes and then say "I have never accepted....." yada yada yada........you just said that you yourself had a closed mind. Kettle calling the pot black comes to mind.

What follows that is an unreasonable argument. You seem to think that all areas of the brain should be involved in these hallucinations of yours........

Back to why your experiences could not be hallucinations (sorry deleted what you wrote in the quote).....you are trying to say that ALL hallucinations have general characteristics. What you should be saying IMO is that hallucinations induced by drugs (the ones you listed) have common characteristics. This does not allow you to exclude the possibility that there might be different types of hallucinations that so far are not well studied. Again this is closing your eyes to the possibilities.

I've made a very good argument that they are different things not only through relating my personal experience, but through the scientific evidence I've provided, yet the skeptic in you won't allow you to open your eyes to that.

I have never accepted the explanation that the brain is capable of producing coherent, structured consciousness with a flat EEG. If the consciousness were dependent on the brain, then as the brain shuts down, degrades or approaches death with a flat EEG, I would expect a corresponding erosion of the brains ability to support consciousness. So as portions of the brain lose their ability to function, logically the functioning of consciousness should also degrade. We should see a less structured, fragmented, incoherent experience ultimately ending in nothingness-if the consciousness emerges from the brain.

Instead with NDE accounts, we are getting exactly the opposite results-structured, coherent consciousness. Some express the experience as more alive and real than normal existence.

If you want to explain this away by a still unknown type of residual neural activity, you have to present parallels which involve normal (lucid) or heightened conscious mental activity and which can at the same time be satisfactorily explained by known residual neural activity.

 

[Mengy]

Well all I know this, people have NDE's and OBE's, that is a fact; whether or not they are real or just intense halluncinations has yet to be proven. If they are simply hallucinations, then they STILL must be affected by the outside world somehow because people see things in the present that they shouldn't be aware of. Clearly, whether they are truly "out of body" or not, there is more at work here than we currently understand, maybe it's simply some kind of extrasensory perception?

I'll be honest, I believe OBE's are real. I've had a few in my life, I would like to have more but it's not something I can control. It has always seemed real to me, it really is quite an exhilarating experience, and until you have actually had one you really can't be told what it feels like. I mean you CAN be told, but it simply can't be done justice. Even if they aren't real they still are freaking awesome.

 

[Becoming]

FreakMonster-
Just curious, you said from your subjective analysis (and what people think, even you is definately subjective) What are the differences between OBE's/NDE's and hallucinations?

 

[Imnotdutch]

Exactly If your brain produced the hallucination it can make you feel anything.

Dont waste your time.........he doesnt want to understand this point.

Mengy, Becoming.......good posts.

 

[Tiervexx]

Dont waste your time.........he doesnt want to understand this point.

Mengy, Becoming.......good posts.

you're right.

 

[FreakMonster]

Where is this very good argument again? I think I missed it.

My my, are we resorting to sarcastic remarks already? It's funny how I answer all your questions but you don't answer mine.

What follows that is an unreasonable argument. You seem to think that all areas of the brain should be involved in these hallucinations of yours........

Actually it's very reasonable if you look at it objectively. You just can't provide a convincing argument so you resort to calling mine "unreasonable". You are obviously ignoring the evidence. You don't like it, you don't want to hear it.

You said ,"You seem to think that all areas of the brain should be involved in these hallucinations of yours."

I never implied this. It has nothing to do with anything.

Back to why your experiences could not be hallucinations (sorry deleted what you wrote in the quote).....you are trying to say that ALL hallucinations have general characteristics. What you should be saying IMO is that hallucinations induced by drugs (the ones you listed) have common characteristics. This does not allow you to exclude the possibility that there might be different types of hallucinations that so far are not well studied. Again this is closing your eyes to the possibilitiies

I never said 100% without a doubt that they could not be hallucinations. That would be arrogant and completely against my character. I said right away in this thread that I didn't know for sure if the NDE's were "real" or not. Anything is possible, but all the evidence I've researched and provided shoots this theory down. It's right there in my posts, re-read them if you have to. In fact I'll repost the main points for you since you seem to be 'forgetting' about them.

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There is no proof that the Near Death Experience, or any other event for that matter, originates within the brain. Nothing has been found stored there.
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Parnia speculated that human consciousness may work independently of the brain, using the gray matter as a mechanism to manifest the thoughts, just as a television set translates waves in the air into picture and sound.

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Theorists seem to be quite content with pointing at unsuitable analogies such as certain types of sleep EEG, but no acceptable close empirical parallels have been presented so far. For instance, during most vivid dreams there is rapid eye movement (REM). As Pim van Lommel points out, if we accept NDEs as real experiences during flat EEG, we also have to accept that patients experience normal, full-blown and even heightened conscious mental activity in them. If critics want to explain this away by a still unknown type of residual neural activity, they have to present parallels which involve normal (lucid) or heightened conscious mental activity and which can at the same time be satisfactorily explained by known residual neural activity.
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If the consciousness were dependent on the brain, then as the brain shuts down, degrades or approaches death with a flat EEG, I would expect a corresponding erosion of the brains ability to support consciousness. So as portions of the brain lose their ability to function, logically the functioning of consciousness should also degrade. We should see a less structured, fragmented, incoherent experience ultimately ending in nothingness-if the consciousness emerges from the brain.
Instead with NDE accounts, we are getting exactly the opposite results-structured, coherent consciousness. Some express the experience as more alive and real than normal existence.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Pam Reynolds] underwent a surgical procedure known as hypothermic cardiac arrest. Her body temperature was lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. Note that her EEG's were flat. People don't even dream with flat EEG's. She had an NDE while her body was in this condition. She was able to "see" from above her body the beginnings of her operation. She was able to accurately describe the actions of the doctors while her brain was shut down. She had lucid, structured "seeing" consciousness outside her body during this operation. And the condition of her body and brain was documented. Her consciousness should not have functioning at all, much less outside her body producing accurate observations of her operation.
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NDE's raise questions about both the consciousness and memories. The consciousness should not function nor should memories be created with a non-functioning brain. So how were memories created and stored during NDE's if the brain was non-functioning such as in Pam Reynolds case?
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[FreakMonster]

FreakMonster-
Just curious, you said from your subjective analysis (and what people think, even you is definately subjective) What are the differences between OBE's/NDE's and hallucinations?

Because I've studied these things subjectively, as well as objectively.

You're trying to bait me, so I'll make this very simple and to the point. NDE's are more accurately described as "After Death Experiences" ADE's, but most people are more familiar with NDE's, that's why I use that term. Your soul, (or consciousness for the atheists) separates from your body at physical death. OBE's are the same thing, only you don't die. Hallucinations are perceptions of things that arn't real. They are different than OBE's/NDE's in that they aren't real. There ya go.

 

[FreakMonster]

Dont waste your time.........he doesnt want to understand this point.

Mengy, Becoming.......good posts.

You seem to be so sure that NDE's are hallucinations, yet:

a. You obviously have not thoroughly researched all three phenomenon.

b. You have no subjective understanding of OBE's/NDE's and hallucinations, which is just as important as objective research for a more complete understanding. (although I do not promote experimenting with drug-induced hallucinations or OBE's)

c. All of you ignore the evidence against the hallucination theory and your replies are riddled with opinion.

I'm not trying to convince anyone anymore, I'm done wasting my time. My efforts now go to the people who are more open minded toward spiritual matters.

 

[Imnotdutch]

Freakmonster.........you are obviously living int he same world as Curling. You can not see that people might actuallyhave a point. Well its all good........you carry on believing what you want to believe. Maybe you are right........but you can not prove it with what you have posted so far.

When you have something more convincing let me know.

I'm going back to the thread where people are posting what they think of others........maybe you could drop in and speak your mind.

 

[FreakMonster]

Freakmonster.........you are obviously living int he same world as Curling. You can not see that people might actuallyhave a point. Well its all good........you carry on believing what you want to believe. Maybe you are right........but you can not prove it with what you have posted so far.

When you have something more convincing let me know.

I'm going back to the thread where people are posting what they think of others........maybe you could drop in and speak your mind.

Like I said before you can't even provide convincing evidence so you bow out gracefully. That's cool.

 

[Imnotdutch]

Like I said before you can't even provide convincing evidence so you bow out gracefully. That's cool.

Ok heres how it is........

I provided an alternative explanation of your little phenomenum. It was a POSSIBILITY. Do you understand that word? It is you pushing your explanation on everybody and hence it is up to you to disprove the idea that I put forward. You have not done so.......

I say it again.........I presented a POSSIBILITY. One that you appear to strongly disagree with yet are unable to show why it is wrong.......this is despite the fact that you keep telling me how objective you are.

So.........either prove your hypothesis beyond doubt........or disprove mine. If you fail to do either then there are alternatives to your explanation despite the fact that you insisting that you are absolutely correct.

So there you go........I am now giving you room to provide proof one way or the other. I wont hold my breath waiting.

 

[Becoming]

You're trying to bait me

Dude- Chill, not trying to bait you. From your most recent post you seem to say that OBE/NDE/ADE are real and hallucinations are not. You also seem to say tat OBE/NDE/ADE are when consciousness leave your body, correct? I am not arguing with either point, if OBE/NDE/ADE are real, which I am not saying is not a possibility. (basically I am saying it is possible, not that I am convinced either way- as I said earlier, I am not on one side or the other)

I just thought from the way you phrased the statement that there was some way you could tell (while one was going on) which type it is...

 

[Becoming]

My efforts now go to the people who are more open minded toward spiritual matters.

Like I said, I am not on one side or the other, but once a persone integrates one theory or the other as part of their belief structure (religion) all logic goes out the window.

Not everyone here is trying to disprove you, also, by looking at the things people thow at you for evidence could also lead to finding ways to strengthen your argument (which I think you know already) Anyway, I think I got in this thread too late and everyone is too defensive now for anything constructive to happen, so I hope we all will be able to contribute to a cool thread topic in the future.

 

[FreakMonster]

Ok heres how it is........

I provided an alternative explanation of your little phenomenum. It was a POSSIBILITY. Do you understand that word? It is you pushing your explanation on everybody and hence it is up to you to disprove the idea that I put forward. You have not done so.......

I say it again.........I presented a POSSIBILITY. One that you appear to strongly disagree with yet are unable to show why it is wrong.......this is despite the fact that you keep telling me how objective you are.

So.........either prove your hypothesis beyond doubt........or disprove mine. If you fail to do either then there are alternatives to your explanation despite the fact that you insisting that you are absolutely correct.

So there you go........I am now giving you room to provide proof one way or the other. I wont hold my breath waiting.

Three times now have I said I never thought I was without a doubt right. Three times!!!!!! My intention was to reproach and discredit the notion that NDE's are hallucinations, using evidence, which I have effectively done. It's all in the post above.

How do you expect me to scientifically prove it?? I would need to get funding, conduct rigorous scientific studies, write papers, etc. I'd be famous if I accomplished that, I'd be all over the net!

The fact of the matter is, nobody has scientifically proved or disproved the idea that NDE's are hallucinations, but so far, the evidence all points to the notion that they are not hallucinations. The only argument scientists have is that some unknown type of residual neural activity causes these experiences, yet it's highly unlikely that a dead brain with all the blood drained out of it and flat EEG's could create these incredibly lucid experieces, and then store them in memory. That's like trying to power and run a super computer with a watch battery!

 

[Imnotdutch]

The only argument scientists have is that some unknown type of residual neural activity causes these experiences, yet it's highly unlikely that a dead brain with all the blood drained out of it and flat EEG's could create these incredibly lucid experieces, and then store them in memory. That's like trying to power and run a super computer with a watch battery!

I already went through the EEG data........and explained why it is pretty much irrelevant.

Blood drained out of the brain? You misunderstand the blood flow indicator. It means blood flow tot he brain has stopped.......not that it is drained of blood. This test in itself is accepted as an INDICATOR........in other words nobody knows whether it has anything to do with brain death.

So bottom line is the tests used for calling brain death are pretty inconclusive and serve as little indication of brain activity.

Who says it is highly unlikely that under the conditions described the brain could not fucntion?? Hardly conclusive considering the ongoing debate........if it were a statement that could be backed up the debate would be over.

 

[Imnotdutch]

And you are yet to give any evidence that shows these experiences are not hallucinations..........

 

[FreakMonster]

I already went through the EEG data........and explained why it is pretty much irrelevant.

Let's see it. Are you talking about Pam Reynolds case?

Blood drained out of the brain? You misunderstand the blood flow indicator. It means blood flow tot he brain has stopped.......not that it is drained of blood. This test in itself is accepted as an INDICATOR........in other words nobody knows whether it has anything to do with brain death.

So bottom line is the tests used for calling brain death are pretty inconclusive and serve as little indication of brain activity.

Do you have sources to back this up?

 

[FreakMonster]

And you are yet to give any evidence that shows these experiences are not hallucinations..........

I have posted tons of evidence that it is highly UNLIKELY that they are halucinations, you however, have not posted any. You back up your opinion with............[drum roll please].............more opinion!

 

[Imnotdutch]

So where is this evidence? Please do not refer you to what you have posted already........that is about a million miles from convincing.

I do not need to post evidence.......it is called a HYPOTHESIS. If your evidence is so strong use it to disprove the hypothesis. I have said this before but you fail to deliver.

I have posted tons of evidence that it is highly UNLIKELY that they are halucinations, you however, have not posted any. You back up your opinion with............[drum roll please].............more opinion!

 

[Tiervexx]

Let's see it. Are you talking about Pam Reynolds case?

Did you just decide to forget about this post?

I think that you misunderstood what he said. Measuring electrical impulses in a live brain is a clumsy procedure.......there is much room for improvement.

You referred to an EEG. This is done using electrodes placed on the skin. As such, there is a lot of material between the electrode and where the impulses are happening. You think this technique is adequate for dtermining absence of ALL impulses? A similar argument can be put forward for AEPs if I am not mistaken. I'm also wondering what brain stem functioning has to do with hallucinations.........the brain stem does not contain any parts that might lead to involvement in hallucinations as far a sI am aware.

Non-blood flow is a 'marker'. It is a guideline only.

None of these techniques tells you what is happening deep inside the brain. You can not rule out all brain activity using these 3 techniques.

It is very obvious that you choose to conveniently forget anything you don't want to hear.

Imnotdutch did a very good job of explaining why it is very hard to determine brain death. This shows that all the studies you posted made a huge jump in logic when they assumed that the patents where completely brain dead.

 

[FreakMonster]

Did you just decide to forget about this post?



It is very obvious that you choose to conveniently forget anything you don't want to hear.

Imnotdutch did a very good job of explaining why it is very hard to determine brain death. This shows that all the studies you posted made a huge jump in logic when they assumed that the patents where completely brain dead.

I answered his question. I did not conveniently forget. I think you need to READ the whole thread again. Did you forget how to read. It's funny that everyone of my questions have gone unanswered but you immediately jump his side when you don't think I'm answering questions. Are you sucking his dick or something?

 

[Imnotdutch]

I answered his question.

Which question did you answer exactly?

 

[FreakMonster]

So where is this evidence? Please do not refer you to what you have posted already........that is about a million miles from convincing.

I do not need to post evidence.......it is called a HYPOTHESIS. If your evidence is so strong use it to disprove the hypothesis. I have said this before but you fail to deliver.

I'm sorry it doesn't convince you. Let the readers decide for themselves.

Well, I can't scientifically prove my hypothesis and you can't prove your's. So let's call it even and 'shake hands', so to speak. As I said earlier it was not my intention to scientifically prove anything and I'm sure that wasn't your intention either, but we presented our arguments and discussed them. That's why they call it a debate.

 

[Tiervexx]

.

...but you immediately jump his side when you don't think I'm answering questions. Are you sucking his dick or something?

Right...I never read the thread. My decision to take his side has nothing to do with the logic of his arguments, or you being a condescending closed minded fool. I took his side because he has a beautiful big cock and that is all us faggots know what to look for.