Do estrogen and androgens compete for the same receptors?

[wyst]

This may be basic stuff to some of you, but I'm a little confused and haven't found the answer by using the search function yet -- though I have tried it...

If I am taking a BC type pill, or a phytoestrogen, or whatever that puts more estrogen or progesterone into my body, does it compete with the androgens (testosterone or nortestosterone or whatever? Do they both try and bind to the same receptors?

If I'm taking one, will it block the other? Or will they both take effect? Like I might see muscle gains, but also pack on some pounds on boobs and ass? Get bigger but keep a softer look too? My guess is the hardcore BBs will say not to do it, cos it blunts the effect, but I'd at least like to know what the effects are, and how they work.

I hope this isn't a really stupid question. If it has already been answered, can someone at least point me in the right direction?

Thanks,

Wyst

 

[MS]

Although many steroids show wide cross-binding affinity, this is not usually their mode of interaction/inhibition. The antagonism between, say, testosterone and estrogen occurs more at the level of the hypothalamus. This gland is under very delicate feedback control of the circulating sex hormones. There is also some competition for binding to sex hormone binding globulin. There are other levels of control in peripheral tissue as well. The main problem with exogenous estrogen/progesterone (the pill) is that your body can't down regulate them through the hypothalamus. Estrogen in particular inhibits fat-loss and can be considered catabolic (in the muscle sense of the word) and works against testosterone for women trying to gain muscle/lose fat. I guess the short answer is that combining the 2 can lead to increased muscle AND fat deposition. However, if you're already taking the pill, then the addition of an anabolic steroid will mostly just result in muscle gain (and possible virilization) since you will have probably already gained the fat if it's gonna happen I would strongly recommend you drop the pill is you ever want to compete and get down to low bodyfat levels.

 

[wyst]

Thanks MS

Thanks!

I appreciate the answer -- big help.

 

[BigEasy]

MS,
You did an outstanding job of explaining that! You should write textbooks, if you don't already. I was mulling over how to even wrap my arms around an issue this complex!

Cudos.

BE

 

[MS]

Oh one other thing that Macrophage69alpha mentioned once was that you could try combining yohimbine and the pill. This may minimize BC pill induced fat-gain or enhance fat loss. I haven't tried it and I don't think there's any clinical research to support this, but it may help.

 

[Par Deus]

MS,

In what way can estrogen be considered catabolic to muscle?? Do you mean directly so, or indirectly via inhibition of the HPTA???

It actually has some indirect anabolic properties -- increases IGF-1 in the liver and possibly a permissive/promoting effect on androgen mediated anabolism.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

From the context it seems almost sure that she meant HPTA.

 

[MS]

I agree Par Deus that estrogen is essential for proper anabolism. I was referring to an imbalance of estrogen (excess) causing reduced thyroid function, increased cortisol output, decreased insulin sensitivity and partitioning more nutrients to fat storage as opposed to muscle storage.

Estrogen while not a catabolic hormone itself, may act like one by causing a shift in the anaboic/catabolic balance by reducing testosterone levels. In women taking supplemental estrogen without extra testosterone this can be important in limiting muscle gains. In women taking extra test then the only worry is keeping the fat off. Another strategy to get around this (if you're sensitive to estrogenic pills) is to try progesterone only pills.

 

[wyst]

progesterone

Wow, that's eerie -- I was just about to post a question about progesterone -- in my research I have come across quite a few people saying that while MDs etc jump to prescribe estrogen or recommend the phytoestrogens, progesterone may actually be the way to go in many cases. Many seemed to be saying that increasing progesterone without a concurrent increase in progesterone may actually be a mistake that can cause other problems...

Any thoughts here? Any experiences with or recommendations with progesterone, MS or anyone else?

Thanks again,

Wyst

 

[fawnmarie]

progesterone

Progesterone is a master hormone and can/will be converted to estrogen or testosterone as needed.

Estrogen sups are useless before menopause and will only cause fat gain, bloating and mood swings - sort of like a 30 day PMS. Lovely, huh?

PMS and other peri-menopause symptoms are caused by the natural decline of progesterone levels about 10 -15 years PRIOR to menopause. (Peri-menopause symptoms are the same as menopause symptoms except that they occur when you're 35 instead of 45.)

For hormone balance, try wild yam transdermal cream which contains progesterone-like phytoestrogens. If symptoms do not disappear after 2-3 cycles, you may need to upgrade to progesterone cream. However, it can be strong and start mid-cycle spotting if you aren't careful with the dosage.

If you are taking estrogen for BC - consider a combo pill which also contains progesterone for balance. Or try the depo provera shot, which is progesterone based. I know some women gain weight on it - but I'm one that doesn't because I'm low on progesterone already.

Since progesterone can be/will be converted to either estrogen OR testosterone, I can't see that there will be any conflict of the receptors.

Fawn