Do AAS permanently alter your genetic structure?

[soflaguy]

If you have taken AAS to a create a body that has exceeded your genetic limitations, then discontinue AAS will you will return only to that genetic potential?

I thought I recall (from Huck), that taking ASS will permanently alter your genetic makeup therefore making it impossible to return to the point you would have been naturally with only a diet and intense training. It could have been total bs, but I thought there was something that actually morphed the DNA structure.

 

[small but working on it]

I saw a thread on this a few months back. I believe the majority of members that responded thought was that it doesnt permanently alter your structure. From what I remember, some experienced guys were saying that you would eventually shrink back to your genetic limit. Some were saying that when a lot of guys start a cycle , they are not at that limit(due to lack of hard training,diet etc...),therefore you can get a lot bigger and maintain most of the new size. I was very interested in that thread and that is what I got out of it. Hope that helps, and I am sure some vets around here will pick up on this with a more technical answer for ya!

 

[Robert Jan]

You misphrased. it will never change your genetics. as for your genetic max potential for muscle size, most never reach it, even WITH roids, so it simply does not apply.

 

[geoboy]

i read an abstract of a study published in a muscle mag recently (i'll try to find) that said that test at 300-600 ew combined with weight training caused "sattellite cells" to be created (dose dependent), which was the equivilent basically of hyperplasia. the newly created muscle cells may atrophy upon disuse or cessation of AAS, but they are permanent. ie you've structurally changed your body.


its too early in morning to think about how this exactly fits into the genetic limit question, but interesting.

 

[gregory]

i read an abstract of a study published in a muscle mag recently (i'll try to find) that said that test at 300-600 ew combined with weight training caused "sattellite cells" to be created (dose dependent), which was the equivilent basically of hyperplasia. the newly created muscle cells may atrophy upon disuse or cessation of AAS, but they are permanent. ie you've structurally changed your body.


its too early in morning to think about how this exactly fits into the genetic limit question, but interesting.

If the satellite cells appeared then it means they were programmed in your dna to do so. So it's just your genetics responding, not altering.

 

[OXANDRIN]

look at professional bodybuilders when they retire..... they still look like freaks

 

[terrapin]

I am assuming by genetic structure you mean DNA. It will not alter your genetic make-up, period. It does not effect your DNA, period. If it did - we would all be fucked.

 

[hammertime30]

If you have taken AAS to a create a body that has exceeded your genetic limitations, then discontinue AAS will you will return only to that genetic potential?

I thought I recall (from Huck), that taking ASS will permanently alter your genetic makeup therefore making it impossible to return to the point you would have been naturally with only a diet and intense training. It could have been total bs, but I thought there was something that actually morphed the DNA structure.

It doesn't change you're DNA structure nor does it change your genetic make up. Altering the body's chemistry for the time on AAS is not the same as altering you're DNA structure. What tends to happen with alot of folks is that once they reach their goals, they tend to slack on training and dieting and start hanging at the beach more! Hence over time they lose the muscle density and size due to lack of muscle stimulation. Regardless rather you juiced or not, if you don't continue to stimulate the muscle through weight training, the muscle cell will shrink because the body as it is don't like to carry more muscle then it has to because it causes it to require and burn more energy and contrary to belief, the body don't like burning energy it would rather just chill if it can! Naturally it's always striving to maintain a balance so the way it sees it, if it don't need it, get rid of it! If you gained 70lbs of muscle and never juiced or trained again, the body will not automatically remove the 70lbs of muscle yes it will shed a good amount, but not all! The same goes for somebody who gained 70lbs of fat and then stopped eating all the chips and dip, the body will not automatically remove the 70lbs of fat. Has nothing to do with the DNA structure!

 

[mrflexdiesel]

Yeah, I don't think it's the genes your changing it's the other factors in your body that you are altering like increased receptor amounts, more protein assimilation, and possibly decreased cortisol activity that makes you physically a different person than you were before even without training or taking gear again. I believe the amount of gear taken and the length of time it has been ran also is a very important factor as far as permanent differences go. Ex. if you only ran one cycle and quit for good you are likely to return to how you looked before pretty quickly. If you have been training and taking steroids for years than it will take you body alot longer to get back to it's normal state since it has adapted over the years to the stimuli you've been throwing at it.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Secondary gene response. You have a new body every 6 months, your body has regenerated all of its cells about every 6-8 months. The new cells are an exact copy of the old ones. AAS will not affect the DNA in the cell nucleus but it will affect the DNA structure in your mitochodria. A cell containing an AAS altered mitchondria will reproduce to create another cell with an altered mitochondrial DNA...


This is not completely permanent and your body should get back to normal after a couple of years of being clean.

 

[Becoming]

AAS will not affect the DNA in the cell nucleus but it will affect the DNA structure in your mitochodria. A cell containing an AAS altered mitchondria will reproduce to create another cell with an altered mitochondrial DNA...

This is not completely permanent and your body should get back to normal after a couple of years of being clean.

Bro do you have a source on this? (BRR - I am not being a pain in the ass from the other thread - I have simply never heard of this and if it occurs, I would like to read about it)

to my knowledge no "content" changes in germline dna occur (this is the messaged in the dna that is passed from parent to offspring and that is the DNA people think most often)

mitochondrial and cell metabolism are effected which results in differential transcription and expression levels.... this may result in the differential organization of the DNA (the way it is wound up for storage)... but not the "content" of the mtDNA

ALSO (which might be what rick was talking about) resulting in more Mitochondria and thus more Mitochondrial DNA per cell - but this does not change the actual information contained in the Mitochondrial DNA and would have no ill effects....

I have heard of corticosteroids causing oxidative stress resulting in DNA damage to cells, but this is a whole different phenomena...

I have also heard studies that say estrogen can cause damage to mitochondrial DNA and some that say it helps prevent it... but this is a pretty new area....

******************

So the simple answer is no, it does not change your dna...

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Bro do you have a source on this? (BRR - I am not being a pain in the ass from the other thread - I have simply never heard of this and if it occurs, I would like to read about it)

to my knowledge no "content" changes in germline dna occur (this is the messaged in the dna that is passed from parent to offspring and that is the DNA people think most often)

mitochondrial and cell metabolism are effected which results in differential transcription and expression levels.... this may result in the differential organization of the DNA (the way it is wound up for storage)... but not the "content" of the mtDNA

ALSO (which might be what rick was talking about) resulting in more Mitochondria and thus more Mitochondrial DNA per cell - but this does not change the actual information contained in the Mitochondrial DNA and would have no ill effects....

I have heard of corticosteroids causing oxidative stress resulting in DNA damage to cells, but this is a whole different phenomena...

I have also heard studies that say estrogen can cause damage to mitochondrial DNA and some that say it helps prevent it... but this is a pretty new area....

******************

So the simple answer is no, it does not change your dna...

My source, I spent an hour on the phone with a biochemist, scientist and athlete. discussing why my son's birth weight was much higher than mines or anybody else’s in mine or my wife’s family…. and why he has stayed at the 97% weight bracket for his age but only at the 60% for height even though his BF is so low for a baby.

When I told him what I was taking around the time my son was conceived he basically described my son to a T. His preferences in food, sleep patterns ect ect. He has worked with many bodybuilders through the years and has seen these patterns happen in their kids as well.

 

[bodytemple75]

Genes, no....don't have enough time and generations to do all this, but body chemistry,...possibly. I always felt myself that after taking AAS for a good while I never was the same again natural. Even after off for a good while when my muscles reallt started to atrophy to some of about almost my natural size without AAS it still was a tad different. I always suspected that since steroids manipulated the blood serum levels and enduced red blood cell count/ volume that had a big part in keeping some of your size somewhat permaninently. This being after discontinuation of AAS use or even exercise alltogether. I always thought something to this degree had a lasting affect on your/ my body.

But it is just an educated guess of my own...I Could be wrong.


Good post BTW.
bodytemple75

 

[Becoming]

My source, I spent an hour on the phone with a biochemist, scientist and athlete. discussing why my son's birth weight was much higher than mines or anybody else’s in mine or my wife’s family…. and why he has stayed at the 97% weight bracket for his age but only at the 60% for height even though his BF is so low for a baby.

When I told him what I was taking around the time my son was conceived he basically described my son to a T. His preferences in food, sleep patterns ect ect. He has worked with many bodybuilders through the years and has seen these patterns happen in their kids as well.

Between you and me, I don't know if your buddy knows what he is talking about, or if I am missing some critical details...

Your son might have a unique mitochondria pool, but it has NOTHING to do with your mitochondria or even your actions before conception...

Mitochondrial DNA is 100% derived from the mother of the child... they actually use it to determine long term migration patterns and maternity lineage for this reason...

Sperm have mitochondria that "motorize it" but they do not contribute to the offsprings mitochondria pool... Mitochondria present in the egg of the female are the only ones present in the fetus/fertilized egg...

As the cells gro, the mitochondria grow, divide to replicate, and are split up and divided among the new cells.... They are not made from coding of the cell's (germline) DNA... and they basically "clone" themselves - like bacteria

Abnormal mitochondria pools within an individual are directly derived from the characteristis of the mitochondria pool which was invested in the egg cell by the mother AND/OR any mutations that have occured since the egg cell was created...

(note - small variations in DNA will occur from mitochondria to mitochondria within the individual due to mutations, but by and large they are 99% identical)

here is a link I found about it if you want some more info (the link has some okay info, but a cellular bio text would be better)

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Between you and me, I don't know if your buddy knows what he is talking about, or if I am missing some critical details...

Well, this guys has built a lot of champions, in bodybuilding and other sports. I would take his word over yours any time of the day...

I think the problem comes in with me not being able to articulate the scientific stuff as well as other guys can. I'm sure his info is right, it is just harder for me to play telephone and relate it to you. I'll see if I can get him to write me a piece about this so I can post it up.

BTW- His mother was on 10mg of Var per day until the day we found out she was pregnant(I left that out).

 

[satchboogie]

so is your son a huge monster?

 

[Becoming]

I think the problem comes in with me not being able to articulate the scientific stuff as well as other guys can. I'm sure his info is right, it is just harder for me to play telephone and relate it to you. I'll see if I can get him to write me a piece about this so I can post it up.

I assume there is some missing details... or something is miss communicated...

Anabolics can have an effect both on the sperm and the womb environment of the fetus tho which can be major, but not because of mitochondrial dna changes...

If they the var did effect the mitochondrial dna of your wife it woudl effect most likely all of her eggs (since they don't make them the way we make sperm) It would be a big deal for sure....

Like I said, I did find it interesting and I would be interested to read his ideas if he feels like writing em down...

Well, this guys has built a lot of champions, in bodybuilding and other sports.

His experience creating champion bodybuilders - doesn't make him an expert on reproductive biology... he might be seeing some things that woudl be of interest to a lot of experts tho...

I would take his word over yours any time of the day...

no need to be rude, I did allow the fact that there could be an error in communication...

The way your post was written, it was something that is IMPOSSIBLE, based on acknowledged and basic molecular and cell bio knowledge...

I was trying to provide you with correct and substantiated information - as I do with everyone.... sorry for making sure you had correct info to go off of...

I never tried to dis your friend (I left open that there might be something missing) only tried to get to the information...

 

[terrapin]

I agree with Becoming...I am a biophysical chemist and molecular biologist that works directly with DNA replication. I would have to say that AAS do not in any way affect the structure (which is a double helix and is NEVER altered, except at the demise of the individual), or the chemical make-up of your DNA. I am sure there is just a misunderstanding of exactly what your doctor was telling you, I am sure we are all talking about the same thing- an upregulation of gene activity. Peace

 

[sh4dowf4lcon]

good posts in this thread, good info. I would say no to anything altering your genetic makeup. I am no Biochemist or nuclear scientitst, I just dont think juice alters your genes.

 

[mrflexdiesel]

:d

 

[geoboy]

My source, I spent an hour on the phone with a biochemist, scientist and athlete. discussing why my son's birth weight was much higher than mines or anybody else’s in mine or my wife’s family…. and why he has stayed at the 97% weight bracket for his age but only at the 60% for height even though his BF is so low for a baby.

When I told him what I was taking around the time my son was conceived he basically described my son to a T. His preferences in food, sleep patterns ect ect. He has worked with many bodybuilders through the years and has seen these patterns happen in their kids as well.

this might be a question for a solo thread, but could you elaborate on that?
are you saying that the scientist is saying that the supplements, steroids etc that you were taking at the time of fertilization affected genetic characteristics of your kid?

tell us more!!!!!!

 

[Big Rick Rock]

this might be a question for a solo thread, but could you elaborate on that?
are you saying that the scientist is saying that the supplements, steroids etc that you were taking at the time of fertilization affected genetic characteristics of your kid?

tell us more!!!!!!

I would definatly like to do so... Right now it is 1 hour past quitting time and I still have a mountain of work on my desk... How about this, I'll post some pics I have of my little man dead lifting a 15lbs dumbel at 2yrl...
He has seen me do deadlifts at home with my home set. One day he found a dumbel on the floor(wife was working out and left it there) and he just squated down and started repping out like it was nothing. My wife is freaked out and thinks he is going to get a hernia so we discouraged him from doing it right now... I did take a few pics though.

 

[satchboogie]

like father like son...

 

[Rod555]

so is your son a huge monster?

ROTFPMSL



That is interesting though BRR, you dont want to encorage him into it too young though. I saw some kid in a magazine and on TV who was 10 or 11 and he was on a full bodybuilding training regeime (pushed by his old man)
He was pretty ripped but that cant be good for a kid, mentally or physically!

 

[Big Rick Rock]

ROTFPMSL



That is interesting though BRR, you dont want to encorage him into it too young though. I saw some kid in a magazine and on TV who was 10 or 11 and he was on a full bodybuilding training regeime (pushed by his old man)
He was pretty ripped but that cant be good for a kid, mentally or physically!

I kind of let him go at his own pace, I never push it on him. If anything I have to stop him from lifting dumbells he sees on the floor.
I got him the smallest boxing gloves I could find (8oz) and he swings those around at everybody now... That kid has so much energy it is amazing.

 

[terrapin]

Have you had any genetic testing done on him? Just curious.

 

[Rod555]

I kind of let him go at his own pace, I never push it on him. If anything I have to stop him from lifting dumbells he sees on the floor.
I got him the smallest boxing gloves I could find (8oz) and he swings those around at everybody now... That kid has so much energy it is amazing.

He sounds like a good kid, you shouldnt have too much trouble stopping him from becoming a fast food munching, sofa jocky!

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Have you had any genetic testing done on him? Just curious.

Nope... I sure he is mines, and if he is not, his real father must have looked just like me, birth marks and all.

 

[terrapin]

Nope... I sure he is mines, and if he is not, his real father must have looked just like me, birth marks and all.

BRR - LOL! - I wasn't talking about a paternity test!!!

 

[Big Rick Rock]

He sounds like a good kid, you shouldnt have too much trouble stopping him from becoming a fast food munching, sofa jocky!

He is very active but his diet is what I worry about...
My son has strong carb cravings. If I don't keep his diet in check hell eat himself into obesity. If you put chicken nuggets and fries on the same plate he will eat all the fries and not touch the chicken... (we make him baked all chicken, chickennuggets and home made fries)

Same thing in the morning with the eggs and toast, same thing at lunch with the rice and beef... He will eat up all the carbs and not touch the protein...
Under my friend's advice I found a solution... I have to now wait till he is hungry and ready to eat. I put the meats, poultry, cheeses in front of him first, wait till he has eaten a good amount and is somewhat full, then I'll put the rice, potatoes, fries in front of him... This is an on going daily battle that I will have to fight till he is old enought to understand so I can explain to him.

One cool thing about him is that he would rather drink water instead of soda or juice... "wata, wata" all this kid says when he is thirsty.

 

[Big Rick Rock]

BRR - LOL! - I wasn't talking about a paternity test!!!

Just funnying witcha... Haven't thought about a DNA test... what should I ask them to look for?

 

[Becoming]

Just funnying witcha... Haven't thought about a DNA test... what should I ask them to look for?

angiotensin-converting enzyme, or ACE has been in the news recently...

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994092

there are a couple more that might be of interest, but that would take some research to get the exact details on them... they wouldn't tell you what he might be good at - but maybe more the types of general things he might excel at...

but being that I have a bunch of worthless degrees for crap and done research at god knows where, I don't know my head from my ass, I don't know if it is worth even reading about.... you should probably just throw it away...

 

[Big Rick Rock]

but being that I have a bunch of worthless degrees for crap and done research at god knows where, I don't know my head from my ass, I don't know if it is worth even reading about.... you should probably just throw it away...

Yup, I stopped taking you seriously about four threads ago.

 

[Becoming]

Yup, I stopped taking you seriously about four threads ago.

That is too bad cause there are more and more cool things you could probably look at that are being discovered everyday...

 

[Big Rick Rock]

That is too bad cause there are more and more cool things you could probably look at that are being discovered everyday...

wait till you read the article we have about 4-hydroxytestosterone, 4-hydroxynandrolone, 4-HydroxyAndrostenedione and 4-Androstene-3, 17-diol...
You were so busy telling people these new, foreign, untested, synthetic, prohormones would kill them! that you overlooked a lot of obvious facts in your “research”...

When you read the article you can have one of two reactions, you can admit your initial assumptions were based on your own misinformation (or plain lack of information) and that you learned something new… maybe even that you need to do more research (this was my reaction)
- or - you can read the article thru the eyes of a sore looser, and think about nothing more than to try to save face by looking for an angle to make your rebuttal.

 

[Becoming]

wait till you read the article we have about 4-hydroxytestosterone, 4-hydroxynandrolone, 4-HydroxyAndrostenedione and 4-Androstene-3, 17-diol...
You were so busy telling people these new, foreign, untested, synthetic, prohormones would kill them! that you overlooked a lot of obvious facts in your “research”...

When you read the article you can have one of two reactions, you can admit your initial assumptions were based on your own misinformation (or plain lack of information) and that you learned something new… maybe even that you need to do more research (this was my reaction)
- or - you can read the article thru the eyes of a sore looser, and think about nothing more than to try to save face by looking for an angle to make your rebuttal.

Rick - seriously bro - I have never said I would not be willing to read good solid info on the products - my main critizism has been the lack of almost any kind of substantiated evidence of any sort...

I doubted M1T - but razor ramon got some solid results and I acknowledged it... I have heard it can cause your liver values to blow up - so I would prefer if he had gotten the tests... but I still acknowleged it seems to work pretty well (thought I will still bring up the liver question)

I even pointed out some info for jcam222 in regards to finding some documents on 4OHT... I doubt I would do that if I am as irrational in my opposition as you claim.


If you can produce some documentation with solid references in established scientific journals - I will more than happily make sure to point out positive evidence in their favor in my future posts (as I did with M1T for razor and as i did point out 4OHT does have some kind of activity for jcam222)

However also keep in mind I will continue to bring up any questions that still exist (ie - yes M1T seems to work well in terms of gains but there is questions as to the effects on the liver) and I think this is the only fair and unbiased way to do things....


If you have docs to prove something is both effective and safe, hell I will probably be one of PHs (or that specific products anyways) biggest supporters! But they do have to be references from reputable and accepted scientific journals...


I never asked anyone to spell it out for me - a simple list of journal references would suffice as far as evidence, I can sufficiently read scientific language - I have written a few myself... I would even say I bet a lot of info IS there - not complete, but it would be enough to address a question here and there....


But, it isn't my job to research PHs all day long and know every bit of info on them and every journal article...
The burden of evidence is and should be on the seller and not the buyer...

(BTW did I say results from published scientific journals? Not just I know this guy who says this did this and got these lab results.... If they have them to cite I will be MORE than happy to tout the evidence they have - but ONLY the evidence and NOT assumptions)

 

[Becoming]

- or - you can read the article thru the eyes of a sore looser, and think about nothing more than to try to save face by looking for an angle to make your rebuttal.

BTW if you do produce some solid evidence - I will tout the substantiated claims as I said and I have already shown I will (but only the substatiated published ones as I said, nothing assumed)....

I DO expect YOU to admit you are wrong and state clearly that I am the unbiased and scientific person I am and NOT some whacked out steroid evangelist you paint me out to be....

 

[Big Rick Rock]

BTW if you do produce some solid evidence - I will tout the substantiated claims as I said and I have already shown I will (but only the substatiated published ones as I said, nothing assumed)....

I DO expect YOU to admit you are wrong and state clearly that I am the unbiased and scientific person I am and NOT some whacked out steroid evangelist you paint me out to be....

Maybe I'm misjudging you... I have had arguments sort of like this with other people before, and I may be judging you based on those experiences (which is wrong for me to do).

The most recent headache I went thru… A five page thread where some dude kept insisting that a new Mexican Vet steroid brand was nothing more than “a fancy UG lab”… by the 5th page of the thread, he had dug in his heels so deep, that when I posted some scanned documents, jpegs sent to me my by a company rep, of product licenses issued by the Mexican government for the company to operate legally in Mexico (in my gallery)... He then turned around and claimed the documents were forged…

I’m not as articulate at arguing my point of view as some of you guys are… I just sit and let it ride till I can produce some proof… In my experience, not a single person has admitted to being wrong after I toss the pudding on the table (that’s where the proof is... in the pudding)… I guess I understand it is hard to say “I was wrong about…” once someone has written 10,000 word essays to try to prove their point…

I take back what I said about you in my earlier post.

 

[Becoming]

I take back what I said about you in my earlier post.

Thanks bro - I appreciate it... and I aplogize in return.... Similarly I also get pissed at the masses of dudes that like to talk out their ass (I am sure you have encountered them as well)


as far as refusing the pudding - with that article I found for jcam222 it says right there in black and white "4-OHT does exhibit androgenic effects"

how could anyone refuse then that it does exist?

Hell if I could have gotten a copy of the paper, I would have followed the trail and looked for whatever I could find as to what the effects are... that doesn't mean it is totally safe, but I would think since they administer it as part of standard dosage protocol - there must be some kind of safety documentation done which I could find from there...



Like I said bro - There probably IS evidence, it just needs to be brought to light... cause a lot of it is like that 4OHT stuff I found - hidden away and hard to get to...

But keep in mind, I will keep it honest and not allow for ONLY what is shown, not too many assumptions (well maybe a few ) and I will demand respected journals...



I do look forward to reading what you can produce (I was never sarcastic or bullshitting about that, I having a true interest in reading the materials)

 

[Big Rick Rock]

Well, here it is guys. I sent the article to GS and he did his own thing with it:

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337866

The original piece by ALR was straight and to the point, it is now Spellwinised.

 

[jcam222]

BRR and Becoming I am glad to see you guys understand each others points of view a bit better now. I think you have both been extremely helpful in presenting information and opinions on the products. Thats the great thing about a free public exchange of information like this. Various opinions are presented and discussed. Ultimately someone like myself learns like crazy and makes a more informed decision. I have decided to try the 4-oht to see what happens. I am a bit concerned about lartinos post regarding the BA content but we shall see.