DHT levels and ARIMIDEX.

[Yozzer]

Should one be concerned about high levels of dht when on arimidex alone?

 

[Stew Meat]

Antiaromitase is going to block aromitase enzymes leaving more circulating testosterone to bind to androgen receptors and 5-alpha reductase enzymes which will convert test into DHT.

However, it is also going to leave very low estrogen levels. The body is preprogramed to reach a particular ratio of test:estrogen. Estrogen is absolutely necessary for several functions detrimental to normal functioning (such as dendritic branching of neurons, cellular metabolism, etc). The body will regulate itself in order to keep an adequate amount in the system. The most obvious mode of regulation would be to transcribe additional aromitase enzymes... With this high concentration of aromitase, one would be screwed if he ever stopped taking Arimidex.




-Stew

 

[Yozzer]

Don't take this the wrong way buddy, but have you actually answered my question? You've told me the test will convert to dht and i will have low estrogen levels?

 

[Hacker]

lol @ yozzer!!

Yeah, Stew can you type in english next time.

 

[Stew Meat]

lol @ yozzer!!

Yeah, Stew can you type in english next time.

Yes, you could possibly have higher DHT levels, but no, you shouldn't be concerned because the increase wouldn't be much. What you need to worry about is what is going to happen when you stop taking the Arimidex.




-Stew

 

[Yozzer]

Stew Meat, ok, now you got me worried about what's going to happen when i stop the arimidex. Could you explain a little more. Like...why I should be worrying and what I can do about it? Seems to me you're saying taking arimidex is bad.

 

[Stew Meat]

Stew Meat, ok, now you got me worried about what's going to happen when i stop the arimidex. Could you explain a little more. Like...why I should be worrying and what I can do about it? Seems to me you're saying taking arimidex is bad.

Read my first post in this thread and you'll see what can happen. Arimidex is NOT bad. It is only BAD when used while not on a cycle containing testosterone or its analogs...



-Stew

 

[Yozzer]

Stew Meat, not too long ago you replied to a post of mine regarding low testosterone levels. You advised me to use anti-estrogen therapy alongside training to raise my t levels. I'm assuming you said this so that I could eliminate any free circulating aromatise in my system, down regulate it dramatically, which will in turn signal the hypothalamus to produce gonadotropin releasing hormone, which, as we know, is the catalyst in endogenous testosterone production.
Are you now telling me that this is harmful? I'm getting confused bro. Can you clear this up. Are you saying now that I shouldn't use anti-estrogen therapy?

 

[dork]

stew...

if im getting on a EQ only cycle, and taking armidex ED (1/4 tab) i can run into problems when i discontinue it?

 

[Yozzer]

Can someone clear this up? Stew meat you've really confused me, I'd appreciate it if you could come back at us on this one.

 

[sixtythirtyten]

arimidex alone?

i was going to take arimidex alone. Stew, are you saying that i will develop gyno after i'm off the arimidex? is there anything i can do to prevent this besides taking more arimidex and besides taking testosterone? i'd really appreciate it if you would clear this up, thanx

 

[Stew Meat]

Stew Meat, not too long ago you replied to a post of mine regarding low testosterone levels. You advised me to use anti-estrogen therapy alongside training to raise my t levels. I'm assuming you said this so that I could eliminate any free circulating aromatise in my system, down regulate it dramatically, which will in turn signal the hypothalamus to produce gonadotropin releasing hormone, which, as we know, is the catalyst in endogenous testosterone production.
Are you now telling me that this is harmful? I'm getting confused bro. Can you clear this up. Are you saying now that I shouldn't use anti-estrogen therapy?

No, short term is fine... just not year round. And if you already have LOW testosterone levels, you don't have to worry about DHT.





-Stew

 

[Stew Meat]

Re: stew...

if im getting on a EQ only cycle, and taking armidex ED (1/4 tab) i can run into problems when i discontinue it?

No, as I said before, when introducing exogenous test or test analogs into the system, Arimidex works great. The reasons is because estrogen levels will be high already because Arimidex can't block every aromitase enzyme so you are still goign to have adequate estrogen in circulation... but not if you are ONLY blocking aromitization of natural testestosterone.



-Stew

 

[Stew Meat]

Re: arimidex alone?

i was going to take arimidex alone. Stew, are you saying that i will develop gyno after i'm off the arimidex? is there anything i can do to prevent this besides taking more arimidex and besides taking testosterone? i'd really appreciate it if you would clear this up, thanx

I'm not saying you will, I'm saying you probably will. There is no point in screwing around with hormone levels. That is serious business... This has NOT been studied... it would be unethical to conduct such studies because people could easily get long term damage.



-Stew

 

[dork]

just clear this up please

Ok stew, im getting a little nervous now.

Im getting on EQ @ 300mg/wk, i plan on taking .25mg armidex ED becasue im very prone to gyno. 2 weeks after my last shot of EQill do clomid therapy, and planned on running the armidex up until i finish the clomid.

Do i have to worry about any type of estrogen rebound effect from the armidex, or any type of dangerously low DHT levels?

 

[Stew Meat]

I hate to keep repeating the same thing over and over... read my above posts.



-Stew

 

[Jon De]

Stew,

Here's my situation. My doc put my on test replacement therapy due to low t-levels, which caused my estradiol level to increase 50% from 34pg/ml to 52 (on a 20-52 scale). My doc wouldn't do anything about the increased E2 number, so I decided to take Arimidex at 1/4mg EOD. What are the dangers if I continue using Arimidex this way indefinitely? Thanks.

-Jon

 

[Yozzer]

Jon De......what dosages are you prescribed, and what effect has it had on your life as far as general feeling, sex drive, gains in the gym etc. ?? Do you cycle it with anything? It seems strange you having such high estradiol levels on t replacement. I may be on that shit soon, so any info would be great.

 

[Stew Meat]

Why is that estrogen level a problem? Are you starting to develop gyno...?

Arimidex should be no problem while on test replacement... but its going to be damn expensive. I believe your estrogen levels will come down in time after you body adjusts. How long have you been on replacement?




-Stew

 

[Jon De]

Stew,

I've been on TRT for a few months. No gyno, but the last month I've been feeling like crap, have a decreased sex drive and noticed some fat gain in the abs even while dropping a few pounds. From what I've read all these point to a high estrogen level. So, I had my blood checked and saw that I had a 50% E2 increase.

I got liquidex, so 1/4mg EOD only costs me about $3.00/week. I just started it a few days ago so I have noticed anything yet.


Yozzer,

I've been taking Androgel 10gr/day (equal to about 100mg test/week) for a few months. I felt good the first month until this estrogen problem popped up. As far as muscle, I gained 5 pounds in the first month without changing my diet at all and only training legs (rehabbing injured arm). Once I can get back to full body workouts I may switch to test cyp injections instead.

-Jon

 

[Stew Meat]

Abdominal fat storage or love handle fat storage is not from estrogen. Gender specific fat storage is due to higher concentrations of beta receptor adipocytes... Adipose tissue in the abs are not estrogen sensitive like legs and butt...


Someone correct me if I'm wrong... I am not 100% on this.


I don't think your fat storage is caused by increased estrogen and I STRONGLY suggest against using antiestrogens when you don't need them.

You CAN NOT reduce your body's natural estrogen levels. Your body is geneticly predisposed with feedback controls and various mechanisms for maintaining the proper testosterone to estrogen ratios. Depleting your body of its necessary concentration of estrogen by competitive inhibition of aromitase enzymes is a BAD idea.


-Stew

 

[Jon De]

Stew,

From my experience I’d have to agree with your comment about the body’s pre-programmed test-est ratio. I just checked my blood test results and noticed that my test level increased 56% while my E2 level increased 53%. So if I increase my T-level further, my E level will continue to rise proportionately. That sucks.

So without resorting to anti-E’s, are there any other options or am I just stuck with a lifetime of high estrogen levels?

-Jon

 

[Jon De]

Stew,

I just read the study on Arimidex in the post (Read! Arimidex!). In this case it looks like Arimidex was given to normal individuals without artificially high estrogen levels and only positive results were noticed. Does this information have any effect on the advice that gave earlier in this post?

Thanks,
-Jon

 

[wilson6]

arimidex

Stew:

Have you seen this article?

Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects.

JOURNAL OF CLINICAL ENDOCRINOLOGY AND METABOLISM. vol. 85, no. 7 (2000 Jul): 2370-7.

Abstract
We have shown that testosterone (T) deficiency per se is associated with marked catabolic effects on protein, calcium metabolism, and body composition in men independent of changes in GH or insulin-like growth factor I production. It is not clear,,however, whether estrogens have a major role in whole body anabolism in males. We investigated the metabolic effects of selective estrogen suppression in the male using a potent aromatase inhibitor, Arimidex (Anastrozole). First, a dose-response study of 12 males (mean age, 16.1 +/- 0.3 yr) was conducted, and blood withdrawn at baseline and after 10 days of oral Arimidex given as two different doses (either 0.5 or 1 mg) in random order with a 14-day washout in between. A sensitive estradiol (E2) assay showed an approximately 50% decrease in E2 concentrations with either of the two doses; hence, a 1-mg dose was selected for other studies. Subsequently, eight males (aged 15-22 yr; four adults and four late pubertal) had isotopic infusions of [(13)C]leucine and (42)Ca/(44)Ca, indirect calorimetry, dual energy x-ray absorptiometry, isokinetic dynamometry, and growth factors measurements performed before and after 10 weeks of daily doses of Arimidex. Contrary to the effects of T withdrawal, there were no significant changes in body composition (body mass index, fat mass, and fat-free mass) after estrogen suppression or in rates of protein synthesis or degradation; carbohydrate, lipid, or protein oxidation; muscle strength; calcium kinetics; or bone growth factors concentrations. However, E2 concentrations decreased 48% (P = 0.006), with no significant change in mean and peak GH concentrations, but with an 18% decrease in plasma insulin-like growth factor I concentrations. There was a 58% increase in serum T (P = 0.0001), sex hormone-binding globulin did not change, whereas LH and FSH concentrations increased (P < 0.02, both). Serum bone markers, osteocalcin and bone alkaline phosphatase concentrations, and rates of bone calcium deposition and resorption did not change. In conclusion, these data suggest that in the male 1) estrogens do not contribute significantly to the changes in body composition and protein synthesis observed with changing androgen levels; 2) estrogen is a main regulator of the gonadal-pituitary feedback for the gonadotropin axis; and 3) this level of aromatase inhibition does not negatively impact either kinetically measured rates of bone calcium turnover or indirect markers of bone calcium turnover, at least in the short term. Further studies will provide valuable information on whether timed aromatase inhibition can be useful in increasing the height potential of pubertal boys with profound growth retardation without the confounding negative effects of gonadal androgen suppression.

I have to get the whole article and see if they measure DHT and also any period following treatment to see if there was a rebound. If you're theory regarding upregulation of aromatase mRNA and protein is correct, then E2 should come back to baseline at some point if the dose of arimidex is not altered and there should be a rebound effect for several weeks following arimidex treatment.

W6

 

[cockdezl]

STEW, do you have any evidence that aromatase will be upregulated when using Anti-estrogen's or aromatase-inhibitors? I would be interested. I have never heard, anecdotally, of any type of estrogenic rebound after the use of say, Tamoxifen or Clomiphene.

Also, where did you read that the body has a programmed Test/Estrogen ratio?

"From my experience I’d have to agree with your comment about the body’s pre-programmed test-est ratio. I just checked my blood test results and noticed that my test level increased 56% while my E2 level increased 53%. So if I increase my T-level further, my E level will continue to rise proportionately. That sucks."

JOHN, in males, testosterone is the precursor to estrogen, since estrogen is NECESSARY for health even in men (the cardiovascular protection that is seen with testosterone therapy is due to aromatization into estrogen). So, yes, if you increase testosterone concentrations, then you increase estrogen concentrations, unless you inhibit aromatase.