decrease in bodyweight exercises

[ryno9000]

Ok, this is 50/50 on which forum to post in, but i'll start here and the mods can kick my ass if I am wrong. I'm a little annoyed becuase I am on cycle, have gained a very decent amount of weight and substancial amount of strength yet I find myself really struggling to do bodyweight exercises. I used to be able to pump out at least 15-20 pull-ups for a few sets in a row, and now I can barely get 10. I used to have to stack on assloads of weight on a belt when doing dips, now my bodyweight is all I can handle to get reps in the range I want. It doesn't make much sense, since I haven't gained SO much wieght that I should be struggling with this. Anyone?

 

[Barch]

Maybe it's the extra bodyweight that you're lifting that's making the external weights go down. It could also be the new muscle is using more of your oxygen than you're used to, tiring you out more quickly. Or perhaps it's the extra range of motion that bodyweight exercises sometimes require that are making them more difficult than weights?

 

[ryno9000]

Maybe it's the extra bodyweight that you're lifting that's making the external weights go down. It could also be the new muscle is using more of your oxygen than you're used to, tiring you out more quickly. Or perhaps it's the extra range of motion that bodyweight exercises sometimes require that are making them more difficult than weights?

yeah good call, those are all very possible. Just wanted to know if this happens to people. It has never happened to me on cycle, but this is my biggest "mass" cycle I have ever run.

 

[ryno9000]

Umm, I've gotta say I will not die happy unless someone else can give me some input. Starting a thread that gets one post really hurts my feelings.

 

[FunFun]

I'm in the same boat. I've gained around 20 lbs (I'm 250 lbs) but still struggle to get 8 reps on pullups fresh. As my 3rd exercise in (after pulldowns and bent over rows) I'm lucky to get 7 reps on my first set. Last night I only managed 5 reps x 4 sets in good form. My strength on other exercises has gone up considerably.

In actual fact I'm doing about the same reps as I did at my pre-cycle lower bodyweight. I too would have expected better strength improvements at pullups. I can't really comment on my dip strength, because I only do them at the end of my chest workout at bodyweight. I'm not really into weighted dips because I find them a little harsh on my shoulders.

Frustrating!

 

[SaiBoT]

Umm, I've gotta say I will not die happy unless someone else can give me some input. Starting a thread that gets one post really hurts my feelings.

Are you running trenbolone by any chance?

 

[lockdownd7]

Ok, this is 50/50 on which forum to post in, but i'll start here and the mods can kick my ass if I am wrong. I'm a little annoyed becuase I am on cycle, have gained a very decent amount of weight and substancial amount of strength yet I find myself really struggling to do bodyweight exercises. I used to be able to pump out at least 15-20 pull-ups for a few sets in a row, and now I can barely get 10. I used to have to stack on assloads of weight on a belt when doing dips, now my bodyweight is all I can handle to get reps in the range I want. It doesn't make much sense, since I haven't gained SO much wieght that I should be struggling with this. Anyone?

What did you think was going to happen when you gained weight? Keep in mind that the mass you've added is not functional to those movements, so you shouldn't expect anything but a decrease in performance. There's a reason gymnasts, martial artists, bboys, etc. try to minimize weight gain.

 

[FunFun]

What did you think was going to happen when you gained weight? Keep in mind that the mass you've added is not functional to those movements, so you shouldn't expect anything but a decrease in performance. There's a reason gymnasts, martial artists, bboys, etc. try to minimize weight gain.

That doesn't quite answer the puzzle. In my case my bench press 10 rep weight has gone up by 50 lbs yet despite an increase of body weight of around 20 lbs my reps on pullups have stayed about the same.

 

[Big_BK]

My BW went up and now i struggle with alot of stuff like dips and pull ups. When i was 180ish i used to be able to strap on 200lbs for dips and now i struggle with 25lbs.

 

[lockdownd7]

That doesn't quite answer the puzzle. In my case my bench press 10 rep weight has gone up by 50 lbs yet despite an increase of body weight of around 20 lbs my reps on pullups have stayed about the same.

It's not a puzzle. The muscle mass added through bodybuilding/bulking protocols is more or less "dead weight" in terms of function. Bodyweight skills are heavily reliant on efficient neural/proprioceptive capabilities (the "mind-muscle connection"). The new muscle tissue does not have the same connection, making it basically dead weight that must be overcome in accomplishing the task. In a bench press, however, you are lifting a weight external to the body. Thus, all that matters is how much force is output. There is no component of controlling the body through space, so added muscle mass can contribute to a lift like that.

 

[FunFun]

It's not a puzzle. The muscle mass added through bodybuilding/bulking protocols is more or less "dead weight" in terms of function. Bodyweight skills are heavily reliant on efficient neural/proprioceptive capabilities (the "mind-muscle connection"). The new muscle tissue does not have the same connection, making it basically dead weight that must be overcome in accomplishing the task. In a bench press, however, you are lifting a weight external to the body. Thus, all that matters is how much force is output. There is no component of controlling the body through space, so added muscle mass can contribute to a lift like that.

My bench press strength has gone up 50 lbs for 10 reps. If my back strength had gone up around the same (50 lbs for 10 reps), then taking into consideration a 20 lb bodyweight increase, theoretically I should be able to strap on 30 lbs for the same 10 reps in pullups. In actual fact a percentage of my 20 lb increase will not be "dead weight" because it will have gone into my arms. There is no need to control my body through space in a pullup. I can merely relax it as I pull up. In actual fact I can cheat easier on pullups than I can on bench press.

I think the answer is more that a vertical pull is a harder movement to improve upon than a bench press due to leverage concerns and a longer range of motion in an inherently weaker, strength limiting postion. Much the same as with the military press which takes longer to gain strength in compared to a bench press. In reality I've improved by 20 lbs (my bodyweight increase) for reps.

Why did I come to this conclusion?...because my strength in bent over rows and other similar movements has increased in line with my bench improvements.

 

[lockdownd7]

My bench press strength has gone up 50 lbs for 10 reps. If my back strength had gone up around the same (50 lbs for 10 reps), then taking into consideration a 20 lb bodyweight increase, theoretically I should be able to strap on 30 lbs for the same 10 reps in pullups. In actual fact a percentage of my 20 lb increase will not be "dead weight" because it will have gone into my arms. There is no need to control my body through space in a pullup. I can merely relax it as I pull up. In actual fact I can cheat easier on pullups than I can on bench press.

I think the answer is more that a vertical pull is a harder movement to improve upon than a bench press due to leverage concerns and a longer range of motion in an inherently weaker, strength limiting postion. Much the same as with the military press which takes longer to gain strength in compared to a bench press. In reality I've improved by 20 lbs (my bodyweight increase) for reps.

Why did I come to this conclusion?...because my strength in bent over rows and other similar movements has increased in line with my bench improvements.

Ok, try this:

Get on a bench, put your bodyweight on a barbell, then hold it at full lockout with elbows straight above.

Now get down on the ground, hold yourself in the planche position - elbows straight, feet off the ground.

So why can you hold the barbell but not hold a planche? The weight, after all is technically the same. However the muscular contractions are very different. Why is a pullup better than a lat pulldown? For the exact reason that your are controlling your body through space - your back is doing the controlling. Otherwise you'd just be swinging all around. Your back is forced to both stabilize your body and lift it.

When you add more muscle - and therefore make the muscle cells larger - the nervous system can't as efficiently control those cells. The same signal sent by the nervous system is now controlling a larger muscle cell.

It's basically the same thing as relative vs. absolute strength. Your absolute strength can increase while your relative strength decreases.

 

[FunFun]

Ok, try this:

Get on a bench, put your bodyweight on a barbell, then hold it at full lockout with elbows straight above.

Now get down on the ground, hold yourself in the planche position - elbows straight, feet off the ground.

So why can you hold the barbell but not hold a planche? The weight, after all is technically the same. However the muscular contractions are very different. Why is a pullup better than a lat pulldown? For the exact reason that your are controlling your body through space - your back is doing the controlling. Otherwise you'd just be swinging all around. Your back is forced to both stabilize your body and lift it.

When you add more muscle - and therefore make the muscle cells larger - the nervous system can't as efficiently control those cells. The same signal sent by the nervous system is now controlling a larger muscle cell.

It's basically the same thing as relative vs. absolute strength. Your absolute strength can increase while your relative strength decreases.

You have some interesting ideas, but I don't agree with your explanation.

1. There's no way you can compare a planche position with a bench press vs pullup comparison simply because balance is required in the blanche along with a lot of muscular contraction in the legs, hips, lower back and abs. You're using a lot of extra energy to balance from an unbalanced position. A pullup requires no effort from the lower body. Only the working muscles need be involved. Just about everyone swings to some extent on the pullup.

2. I don't believe the pullup is better than the lat pulldown. I believe the pulldown is a better exercise for most people for many reasons beyond the scope of this discussion. This has always been a controversial topic.

3. To keep your body still in the pullup, all that is required for you to do is to relax it.

IMO, as I mentioned before, it's the weaker angle of the pull that makes pullups harder to improve upon. Just as presses are a weaker movement than bench presses, pullups are a weaker movement than rows.

 

[lockdownd7]

You have some interesting ideas, but I don't agree with your explanation.

1. There's no way you can compare a planche position with a bench press vs pullup comparison simply because balance is required in the blanche along with a lot of muscular contraction in the legs, hips, lower back and abs. You're using a lot of extra energy to balance from an unbalanced position. A pullup requires no effort from the lower body. Only the working muscles need be involved. Just about everyone swings to some extent on the pullup.

2. I don't believe the pullup is better than the lat pulldown. I believe the pulldown is a better exercise for most people for many reasons beyond the scope of this discussion. This has always been a controversial topic.

3. To keep your body still in the pullup, all that is required for you to do is to relax it.

IMO, as I mentioned before, it's the weaker angle of the pull that makes pullups harder to improve upon. Just as presses are a weaker movement than bench presses, pullups are a weaker movement than rows.

It sounds like we've been discussing two different things. You were discussing why pullups improve at a slower rate than bench presses, while I was discussing why performance in bodyweight exercises decreases when extra body mass is added. If I'm correct in that interpretation, it would explain our disagreement.

Also, I'd be interested in seeing any info regarding your views concerning lat pulldowns vs. pullups. Perhaps I've been mislead, but I've never seen any controversy, just a consensus that pullups are the better exercise for the reason that the strength gained far more functional and transferrable.

 

[FunFun]

It sounds like we've been discussing two different things. You were discussing why pullups improve at a slower rate than bench presses, while I was discussing why performance in bodyweight exercises decreases when extra body mass is added. If I'm correct in that interpretation, it would explain our disagreement.

Also, I'd be interested in seeing any info regarding your views concerning lat pulldowns vs. pullups. Perhaps I've been mislead, but I've never seen any controversy, just a consensus that pullups are the better exercise for the reason that the strength gained far more functional and transferrable.

Yes, agreed. I was commenting on my slow progess on pullups specifically, on cycle compared to progress on other exercises.

I really don't want to go into a lat pulldown/pullup debate. I've been involved with such debates many times in the past. I don't believe there is a concensus that pullups are better. There maybe a concensus that they are a lot harder, but better...questionable.

Suffice to say here, for me personally I prefer pulldowns. At 250 lbs I cannot get enough reps to really get into a favourable hypertrophy zone on pullups and with my increased bodyweight on cycle the situation hasn't improved at all. I favour the 10 - 15 rep range on back exercises. I do throw in 3 or 4 sets on most back days for good measure, but only in the 5 - 8 rep range.