Debasser, Igor Vovchanchin

[b fold the truth]

Debasser, I was replying to your post when it got locked.

I hope that this makes some sense...I don't have much experience with cutting weight for anything...lol. Give me your thoughts...

Appreciate it...

B True

B fold with all due respect (and there is a lot of it trust me), that's not
quite what I was getting at. This is not a comparison of 2 guys with all
kinds of variables (including the supreme one: skill), one having a higher
bodyfat than the other. Igor Vovchanchin (sp), with his 20+% bodyfat would
mangle a young, ripped newcomer. But that's not what I'm saying at all.
Instead, consider this: which Igor would be better in the ring?

Igor before: 240 @ 20% bodyfat
Igor after: 240 @ 10% bodyfat

What possible advantage would the first one have? This is not Igor with 30
lbs more of fat that he can use as leverage as another fighter, this is him at
the exact same weight with considerably more muscle and strength.

I was simply questioning the reluctance of some fighters to drop fat and yet
remain in their weight class by replacing it with muscle. It could only lead

to a stronger fighter. 205lb 8% Tito Ortiz is going to be more of a force
than a 205lb 30% [hypothetical] version, for obvious reasons. Even if the
differences aren't quite that drastic, every little bit can count in the ring.

I ran a search on google about Igor...had no idea who he was. He appears to
be in very good shape and one heck of a MMA fighter!!!! You are right, the
person with the best skill should always win...no matter what the bodyfat%.

Igor with 20% bodyfat (a lot more than I think is healthy or productive), IF
he was in good shape...should fight fine. If he dropped his bodyfat % by 10%
and stayed at the same bodyweight...wow. Do you realize what that would
take? He would have gone from having 48 pounds of bodyfat to having 24 pounds
of bodyfat...he would have lost 24 pounds of pure FAT... and replaced it with
24 pounds of pure muscle!!!! Think about what that would take...


I am GUESSING that it would take about a year or more just to lose 24 pounds
of pure fat (maybe less...I dunno) IF he lost it without losing ANY muscle.
Now...think about how long it would take him to gain 24 pounds of PURE
MUSCLE. It would absolutely suck...lol.

Everyone that I know who has dieted for a bodybuilding show has felt like
total crap. I would not want to feel like crap and try to compete at
anything. If Igor could fight well at 20% bodyfat...what does it matter?

Chad Smith was about 6' and 390 pounds last year when he picked up an 800
pound Super Yoke on his back and took it 100' in 12 seconds flat. If he
BELIEVED that he would be faster at the events at 300 and 10% bodyfat...don't
you think that he would do what it took to get there???

Do long distance runners have ripped bodies like sprinters do? Is that diet
or genetics? Really...think about it.

B True

 

[b fold the truth]

Just wanted to point out that I DON'T have the answers...but seek to find them.

B True

 

[b fold the truth]

Hope I haven't offended you man...seriously.

I've only played a few sports in my life so my experience is limited. Would really like to hear your input on this man...seriously.

B True

 

[Scotsman]

B True

I think that all atheletes are 50% genetics and 50% work. When I played football I was a 220 lb lineman who rean a 4.6 40. The other ld-lineman was 260 and ran a 4.5 40. Though I was smaller and leaner he was faster because of his genetics. I am assuming that since we trained the same. I was always stronger than him and he was always faster.

Cheers,
Scotsman

 

[Debaser]

Great points...

I would say that for MMA it would have to be a very slow, controlled process, because I'm not sure if they have off-seasons per se. I think being gradual would be the key. Maybe 100 calorie drop per week until a slight fat loss was obtained while maintaining strength levels. And then a modest bulking diet. This would require extreme discipline

It's easier for someone like me, who can diet all out and then bulk all out without much regard for consistant energy levels. Though I will be start training MMA/BJJ in a few months [probably] so I'm going to look into some popular methods at that time...

As disciplined as some fighters are, I'm not sure all of them could have the discipline when it comes to diet. I mean, I seriously doubt Igor counts calories or has precise ratios. I'm just saying going that slight extra mile may be beneficial in the ring. But it's all armchair theory on my end, I have no personal MMA experience.

BTW, Igor is a beast, checkout these fight highlights:

http://www.sherdog.com/download.cfm?dl=highlights/13-IgorVovchanchinHQ.zip

You have to click on the link and then wait for the d/l to start (or click the next link) so don't try save target as

 

[b fold the truth]

MMA is armchair theory on my end too...

I appreciate the reply though...learned a lot from the discussion actually...

How do you think that water manipulation affects performance in such sports??? It affects me greatly I think...

B True

 

[Thaibox]

I'm glad you restarted this topic on a clean thread b-fold. This was a decent topic until the thread turned into doo-doo.

think about how long it would take him to gain 24 pounds of PURE MUSCLE

Between 10 and 12 weeks b. I should point out that, although I've been out of the loop for a little while, juice is a prominant part of fighters diets. Just watch some fight tapes, when someone will be fighting at say a smooth 205...then 3 months later they're fighting at a solid 220 it doesn't take much guessing as to their methods.

That being said, taking Igor as our example, that "slight extra mile" as stated to lose the extra fat would be used to develop more strength by a smart fighter. Any decent fighter is doing so much cardio that he is already jeopordizing his valuable muscle tissue. Therefore, why would he want to cut his diet even more to add to this problem? This is of course assuming that the fighter has no interest in dropping weight for the purpose of maintaining a weight-class, but for strictly performance based purposes. Those few percentage points of fat are of no concern, especially if they have difficulty maintaining strength and/or muscle tissue already.

How do you think that water manipulation affects performance in such sports???

For me personally it was a HUGE factor in training.

Debaser,
Where/under whom will you be studying?

 

[Debaser]

I'm starting to begin my search on NHB/MMA schools in the area. I do know of one BJJ instructor, his name is Daniel [something Brazilian and hard to spell] who really knows his shit. I believe he is a 1st or 2nd degree black belt and has been training his entire life (mostly in brazil). He is a student under one of the Gracies but I can't remember which.

If I could find a MMA school in the KC area that would be awesome though

 

[latinus_spicticus]

Igor Vovchanchin just fought Bob Schriber (I think) in some mma event last week and was ripped at 215lbs. He's lost about 20lbs of pure fat it looks like. He looked a lot sharper physically and performed much better, as well.

 

[coolcolj]

basicly it boils down to this - put a weight vest on with 20lbs, does it make it easier or harder?

I know fat levels have hormonal relationships. But the main thing is most people disrupt their normal hormonal patterns to get lean and tend to lose muscle, and or overtrain. There is no reason to believe that with the correct approach to leaning up and resetting your fat level set point, you'd be worse off.

I know how I felt to be very lean many years ago with a 29inch waist (35 inch now) and I can tell you even though I'm far stronger and more explosive now, I don't have the "speed" I had back then. Every pound of non-functional mass you add on increases inertia that you have to move/brake when you acclerate, or change direction.
Power to weight ratios levels do increase exponetially with lowering bodyfat %. Hold a shotput in your hand and move it around, then compare it to tennis ball. That's what I'm getting at.
This is when your goal is propel your own bodyweight around that is.

Obviously getting shredded is not a natural setpoint, but go above that and you will find a happy area to be at.

 

[IronLion]

I don't agree with that in relation to a combative sport. Put a 20 pound weight in my hand and watch how fast I knock out Mike Tyson. Power is directly related to mass as well as acceleration. You can increase THE POWER EXERTED ON AN OBJECT exponentially by increasing mass while holding acceleration.

 

[PolishHammer1977]

All I know is that bf% don't mean shit in any fight I've ever been in

 

[revexrevex]

You can increase THE POWER EXERTED ON AN OBJECT exponentially by increasing mass while holding acceleration.

This increase is not exponential, but linear

 

[Zander1983]

What rev said.

F = ma afterall

 

[coolcolj]

I don't agree with that in relation to a combative sport. Put a 20 pound weight in my hand and watch how fast I knock out Mike Tyson. Power is directly related to mass as well as acceleration. You can increase THE POWER EXERTED ON AN OBJECT exponentially by increasing mass while holding acceleration.

On the other hand, to maintain the same accleration with the heavier object requires greater power ouput. While if you were to use a lighter object you could go faster still.
You don't get something for nothing

 

[revexrevex]

He was talking a specific kind of sport, a CONTACT sport.

If we have two people, one who is 200 lbs at 10%, and another who is 250 lbs at 20%, and both of them are able to exert the same power output, then the guy with 250 lbs will hit much harder due to 50 lbs more weight on him.

 

[coolcolj]

provided he could hit the lighter guy in the first place

But then again, how much fat is on the arm?

The heavier guy would have an advantage in grappling though
But this is all speculation, reality is never that simple.

The important thing is, will you be a better or worse athlete if you gained 20lbs of fat from what you are now?
I know I would be far worse off.
If I had to compete against a 228lb version of myself in most sports or activities I would beat the fatter version no question.

 

[revexrevex]

CoolColJ,.... we narrowed it down to a very specific aspect of the hitting, which is the FORCE at which it will be hit.

Obviously we didn't mention that the lighter guy will be faster in relation to the large guy(because the larger guy has to carry 50 more lbs), he will have much more oxygen capacity, and obviously its two different people, so you're right... anything can happen.

 

[revexrevex]

SO the main point is, with voluntary addition of FAT, the athlete may be winning in some aspects of his/her sport, but will suffer when it comes down to the total picture.

 

[coolcolj]

yeah that's an important point

fat requires blood and oxygen just like muscles do, but don't contribute to propulsion.
Your chewing more fuel, while weighing heavier which adds to the workload

 

[IronLion]

I am not disagreeing that a leaner athlete is a better athlete in some sports, especially ones where the goal is body propulsion. In sports where there are collisions, like football, like boxing, like wrestling, like mma one must also look at momentum. This is also mass dependant, so if a 240 runs into a 300 pound guy if they are both traveling the same speed the 240 pound guy will absorb most of the energy from the collision.

btw

f=ma

power is the rate at which energy transfers from one body to another, also it is the work done over a given time interval. Energy and work are related by the work energy thereom so that the work done is equal to the change in kinetic energy with respect to time.

power =

dE
---
dt

where E stands for energy in this case we are speaking of kinetic energy specifically

so power =

d(1/2 mv^2)
-----------------
dt

So you see the power function increases exponentially albeit not due to the mass, it is only the magnitude of the function. So i should have been clearer, sorry

 

[b fold the truth]

Iron Lion just went way over my head...

What is it that Louie said...find what works for you then figure out why later!!!!

B True

 

[revexrevex]

bro, you forgot that when we take derivative, M comes out, since it is a constant

The one I used was

1)P = F * V

2) F = M * A

1+2) P = M *(dv/dt * v)

 

[IronLion]

i agreed with you in my last post.....lol

the power function is still exponential though

your way:

P=Force times velocity

F=ma

P = ma * v

so lets define the graph: position versus time

then

P = m dv/dt * dx/dt

so on a position graph the function is exponential and on a velocity versus time graph it is not.....I am done realizing all the shit I forgot for one evening......rev you must be an engineering student....lol

 

[coolcolj]

Yeah true -

but when I was at highschool, we had this small Asian guy in our first 15 rugby side playinga s winger who weighed no more than 150lbs if that at 5'5" or so, but he ran 10.5 for the 100m, extremely fast accleration, he was a virtual blur when he took off, extreme stride frequency.
I can't count the number of times that other much bigger wingers who tried to tackle him came off second best. And these guys were the top players in their respective schools.
When something that fast hits you it hurts, especially when your stationary
Remeber we don't use pads or helmets etc

Even myself, I played winger, I was a defensive specialist and at 172lbs I used to pulverise anyone that tried to run in my direction, I have found memories downing 4 forwards (think lineman etc) in succession when the other side made a pack rush, and these guys literally dwarfed me in height and grith. I was an animal back then, I knew no fear, if you know how to use it, nothing can stop you

Even in school yard wrestling I kicked ass, the only guy who I couldn't get was this big Fijian dude!! LOL his arms were so thick I couldn't apply any pressure on him

 

[revexrevex]

4 years of engineering, someone please shoot me... lets just go and squat

 

[IronLion]

i feel your pain, i am glad I understand calculus, physics, statics, and dynamics b/c it helps when trying to make friends with the nerds...lol j/k bro

 

[revexrevex]

Is it just me, or people from asian decent are predominentaly fast twitch... it was just observation, not sure if its just coincedance

 

[revexrevex]

i feel your pain, i am glad I understand calculus, physics, statics, and dynamics b/c it helps when trying to make friends with the nerds...lol j/k bro

jock

 

[coolcolj]

Is it just me, or people from asian decent are predominentaly fast twitch... it was just observation, not sure if its just coincedance

I dunno most of the ones around here in Sydney are pretty puny, weak and somewhat slow
These tend to come from Hong Kong.

But I was born in Papue New Guinea, and most of the Asians I grew up with there were pretty explosive and more built, must be the different diet and active childhoods we had on a tropical island with no TV or computers

 

[b fold the truth]

My girlfriend is Greek and muscular as heck...and she has never lifted weights. The other day she did some clean and presses with a thick bar and REALLY blew my mind... She learned to double dip/jerk with heavy weights on her first time EVER lifting weights!!!!

Freaky strength...not sure if it is a shame or a blessing that she hates the gym...

B True

 

[revexrevex]

Two words.

Artificial Selection.

 

[slobberknocker]

"You go in the cage..................cage go in the water...............shark's in the water................our shark..................hehehe........"


---Quinn, "Jaws"


I'm going to bed.