DE bench compared to DE squat

[jeremys]

the westside trainees at the elite level usually have very high deads and squats, and good (not the best) benches

now, with metal militia coming out and explaining their training and setting records, i think i see why their methods work.

when you do a competition squat (in a suit), you usually get in the whole and pause then come up. you pause because of your suit.

now, when you do DE for squats, what do you do? box squats. the box squats break the concentric/eccentric

the same thing in a competition bench happens when you squat. because of your shirt (and rules), you have to pause. when you train for DE bench, there's no pausing. there'd be no point, at least not that i understand yet, because the reversal strength, in my mind, is what makes the DE bench work for hitting PRs in the gym (touch-n-go). but that doesnt help much in my mind with a tight shirt and a good pause.

that's my reasoning for why westside-style benching is behind metal militia in terms of results. they don't rely/waste a good training day on speed benching. that and i dont think they get enough reps in their shirts

anybody feel free to jump in. i hope what i typed makes sense

 

[argent]

Actually from what I've seen it is not like that at all. Most Westsiders are good squatters, and above average benchers. They are not as good as the MM guys at the bench b/c MM specializes in it. Most Westider's deadlifts though are not too much heavier than there bench. These are generalizations and I realiza there are exceptions, but that is what I've noticed. They have about 30 people sqautting 800 or more at their club, but only a handful pull 800.

 

[jeremys]

Actually from what I've seen it is not like that at all. Most Westsiders are good squatters, and above average benchers. They are not as good as the MM guys at the bench b/c MM specializes in it. Most Westider's deadlifts though are not too much heavier than there bench. These are generalizations and I realiza there are exceptions, but that is what I've noticed. They have about 30 people sqautting 800 or more at their club, but only a handful pull 800.

yeah, i suppose it depends on the lifter.

there's a couple 1000 pound squatters in the original MM, well..at least one anyways

but i've heard people saying speed bench isnt helping them much anymore, once they're at a 5-600 pound bench. then they switch to MM-style benching and they're now hitting higher numbers (ie. tommy fannon)

i was wondering why this was and this was my reasoning. make sense to anybody else?

 

[DBCooper]

The MM trains specifically for the bench, their way works and so does westside, but westside has adopted the idea of using your shirt more and it is working imo. We also are pulling more and will have several low to mid 8 pullers. Bodyweight is also a factor, MM guys tend to be alot bigger than most which also helps.

 

[jeremys]

The MM trains specifically for the bench, their way works and so does westside, but westside has adopted the idea of using your shirt more and it is working imo. We also are pulling more and will have several low to mid 8 pullers. Bodyweight is also a factor, MM guys tend to be alot bigger than most which also helps.

true. how do you work in the pulling.. adding more ME pulling movements and speed deads?

what about my DE box squatting vs. speed benching analogy considering contest gear? hold any water?

 

[DBCooper]

DE bench is to work reversal strength, your shirt will stop you in the bench but to explode off your chest takes speed which DE provides. DE squat day helps build the hips from pausing making you stronger and faster. We pull after DE squats almost every other week and pull almost 1-2 times a month heavy but thats pulling from the rack- off mats-on mats etc. not right off the floor, I've only pulled off the floor once or twice since November. Everything is an experiment so alot changes<-----Thats the key to Westside.

 

[coolcolj]

well if the comp requires you to pause, then you should pause all your benches in training to work on starting strength

all speed benches do is improve your stretch reflex skills. No point really for powerlifting if you need to pause, which kills the stretch reflex.

 

[JOKER47]

well if the comp requires you to pause, then you should pause all your benches in training to work on starting strength

all speed benches do is improve your stretch reflex skills. No point really for powerlifting if you need to pause, which kills the stretch reflex.

I have to disagree with this. I have been PL style benching for several months now, and whrn I first started benching PL style, I made moderate gains in my lift.

But, since I have started adding speed work in, my bench press has exploded.

I may not know the technical reasons why, but saying that thereis no point doing speed work in power lifting, is just not a correct statement.

BTW, I do all my heavy benching, (ME) with a 1-2 second pause at the bottom to prevent ANY bouncing effect. That includes all board presses as well.

FWIW,
Joker

 

[argent]

I read a study a while back dealing with plyometrics that said the stretch reflex can still take place up to 2 sec. I will try and dig it up.

 

[jeremys]

I have to disagree with this. I have been PL style benching for several months now, and whrn I first started benching PL style, I made moderate gains in my lift.

But, since I have started adding speed work in, my bench press has exploded.

I may not know the technical reasons why, but saying that thereis no point doing speed work in power lifting, is just not a correct statement.

BTW, I do all my heavy benching, (ME) with a 1-2 second pause at the bottom to prevent ANY bouncing effect. That includes all board presses as well.

FWIW,
Joker

but you have to remember that, in a competition, it often takes a bit to get the bar to touch, then you have to pause for a couple more seconds, when you're training DE bench with no pause at all

i know for sure my touch-n-go bench in the gym goes up w/ DE benching, but in competition, there's the equipment issue

 

[JOKER47]

but you have to remember that, in a competition, it often takes a bit to get the bar to touch, then you have to pause for a couple more seconds, when you're training DE bench with no pause at all

i know for sure my touch-n-go bench in the gym goes up w/ DE benching, but in competition, there's the equipment issue

Yes, that's true. (Even though I do not compete.) But from what I have experienced myself, the speed does help with the lift. (Eccentric?) I can hold the bar on my chest as long as I need to, and still explode up. And I don't use a shirt. All my bench moves, boards or not, are done with a 1-2 sec pause.

All I know, at least for me, the speed has been a huge help in getting my bench weight higher. Why? I am not an expert in the technical portion of that. But, I do know it works for me. And a hell of a lot of other people.

.02,
Joker

 

[coolcolj]

Train how you will lift in comp.

You should still do accleration work with lightrr weights, just that you don't have to drop the weight down fast. Lower it under control, pause on the chest and then ram it up.

That way your working on starting strnegth (ability to turn on all your fibers at the instant moment) and accleration strength to power through teh sticking point.

This is for powerlifting regs I mean. For athletes speed bench is of benefit. But plyo pushups and smith machien bench throws are even better since you don't need to decclerate

 

[jeremys]

Yes, that's true. (Even though I do not compete.) But from what I have experienced myself, the speed does help with the lift. (Eccentric?) I can hold the bar on my chest as long as I need to, and still explode up. And I don't use a shirt. All my bench moves, boards or not, are done with a 1-2 sec pause.

All I know, at least for me, the speed has been a huge help in getting my bench weight higher. Why? I am not an expert in the technical portion of that. But, I do know it works for me. And a hell of a lot of other people.

.02,
Joker

that's great that it works for you.

yes, it works well..seemingly to a point. look at benchmonster and irishpower from these boards. (i've posted this on this thread earlier).

i'm talking about elite lifters..and why the westside method for benching works until a point.

look at dave tate..it took him what, over a decade to bench 600? (im not knocking his lifts in any way..just questioning the methods)

i'm just trying to figure out why this is..

 

[JOKER47]

that's great that it works for you.

yes, it works well..seemingly to a point. look at benchmonster and irishpower from these boards. (i've posted this on this thread earlier).

i'm talking about elite lifters..and why the westside method for benching works until a point.

look at dave tate..it took him what, over a decade to bench 600? (im not knocking his lifts in any way..just questioning the methods)

i'm just trying to figure out why this is..

Ahhh, ok. I think I see the point you are making now.

Perhaps, it as simple as the somewhat well known theory that "Everything works, but nothing works forever".

Perhaps the elite lifters used a extremely effective type of training for years, and just "outgrew" it. The change to a different style was what they needed. Because WSB is so versatile and effective, one doesn't "outgrow" it for many years. That would be my best possible theory. Point being it's only a theory.


CCJ> I agree wholeheartedy with the "train like you compete" statement.
As far as the speed work, I actually found that doing both the eccentric and concentric quickly was more effective for me. Theory? If you lower the bar quickly, the same muscles that push the bar up have to stop the bar on the way down. You lose that if you lower the bar slowly.

Just my theory on that.


Joker

 

[jeremys]

Ahhh, ok. I think I see the point you are making now.

Perhaps, it as simple as the somewhat well known theory that "Everything works, but nothing works forever".

Perhaps the elite lifters used a extremely effective type of training for years, and just "outgrew" it. The change to a different style was what they needed. Because WSB is so versatile and effective, one doesn't "outgrow" it for many years. That would be my best possible theory. Point being it's only a theory.


CCJ> I agree wholeheartedy with the "train like you compete" statement.
As far as the speed work, I actually found that doing both the eccentric and concentric quickly was more effective for me. Theory? If you lower the bar quickly, the same muscles that push the bar up have to stop the bar on the way down. You lose that if you lower the bar slowly.

Just my theory on that.


Joker

yup, thats just another thing on what it COULD be..i wanna know exactly whats going on. lol

good post

 

[DBCooper]

Don't blame Dave for taking so long at getting to 600 he had a shoulder surgery in their and a pec tear, I've watched a 165'er go from 470 bench to him doing 580 in the gym and 540 or so at the Arnold in no time and he is close to 6 now at around 180, my bench was my weakest point and I went froma hard 473 to an easy 600 in around 2 years and am above that now, it all depends on how you push yourself, Before 723-473-650 after 875-600-765 you figure it out.

 

[jeremys]

Don't blame Dave for taking so long at getting to 600 he had a shoulder surgery in their and a pec tear, I've watched a 165'er go from 470 bench to him doing 580 in the gym and 540 or so at the Arnold in no time and he is close to 6 now at around 180, my bench was my weakest point and I went froma hard 473 to an easy 600 in around 2 years and am above that now, it all depends on how you push yourself, Before 723-473-650 after 875-600-765 you figure it out.

awesome..still not the general consensus, at least not of what i'm hearing

didnt know that about dave, it's understandable now.