Contraversial Cardio question....part 2

[GUESS]

I believe it was last June when I posted the first part of my question about the true advantage of doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. Now I think it's safe to say that everyone would agree that a.m. cardio is the most effective time to do cardio.

But here is the kicker, I have a friend that competes and he often gets tutored by someone on the "Canadian Calibre" bodybuilding team, so bottom line is these guys are supposed to know their stuff, any how this guy was explaining to my friend that not only is diet and cardio the keys to success but also a very effecient metabolism, stuff we all pretty much know, he explained that after you've slept for 8 hours and get up then go to the gym to do your cardio it has been almost 10 hours since your last meal thus meaning your metabolism has not been truly working. He said to have a protein shake with water as soon as you get up and then go do your cardio, this would give you an edge and overall make the metabolism sharp.

Now to me this sort of makes sense because if the protein you are consuming is carb, sugar and fat free then it should be o.k. Any thoughts on this or maybe even first hand experiences?

 

[boops]

I believe it was last June when I posted the first part of my question about the true advantage of doing cardio in the morning on an empty stomach. Now I think it's safe to say that everyone would agree that a.m. cardio is the most effective time to do cardio.

But here is the kicker, I have a friend that competes and he often gets tutored by someone on the "Canadian Calibre" bodybuilding team, so bottom line is these guys are supposed to know their stuff, any how this guy was explaining to my friend that not only is diet and cardio the keys to success but also a very effecient metabolism, stuff we all pretty much know, he explained that after you've slept for 8 hours and get up then go to the gym to do your cardio it has been almost 10 hours since your last meal thus meaning your metabolism has not been truly working. He said to have a protein shake with water as soon as you get up and then go do your cardio, this would give you an edge and overall make the metabolism sharp.

Now to me this sort of makes sense because if the protein you are consuming is carb, sugar and fat free then it should be o.k. Any thoughts on this or maybe even first hand experiences?

you can beat this one to death both ways bro...your gonna have some say AM empty stomach and the others that say after protein then still more that say post workout....the ONLY way to find out what works for you is to try it, end of discussion...what works for Deez Nutz may not work for Mike Hunt, get it..........

 

[Makavelli]

If you consume a protein shake it will be converted to glucose quickly and you'll burn the glucose instead of fatty acids during cardio. Not the smartest thing to do.

 

[GUESS]

you can beat this one to death both ways bro...your gonna have some say AM empty stomach and the others that say after protein then still more that say post workout....the ONLY way to find out what works for you is to try it, end of discussion...what works for Deez Nutz may not work for Mike Hunt, get it..........

Fair enough, and I pretty much feel the same way but I'm zeroing in on the fact that when you hit the cardio after an 8 hour rest period your metabolism is at a stand still. Does anyone know if this has any merit to it?

 

[azul]

Everything you need to know about fasted cardio:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=835725

 

[GUESS]

If you consume a protein shake it will be converted to glucose quickly and you'll burn the glucose instead of fatty acids during cardio. Not the smartest thing to do.

Makavelli I was hoping you would see this and reply because I know that you're in the business and would have some solid input. I thought that also about the conversion to glucose, it's just that considering where the info came fron I just wanted to throw this out there to get a wider spectrum of educated opinions.

Thanks bro!

 

[boops]

Fair enough, and I pretty much feel the same way but I'm zeroing in on the fact that when you hit the cardio after an 8 hour rest period your metabolism is at a stand still. Does anyone know if this has any merit to it?

well my merit is im doing it now in preperation for a better time on my 1.5 mi run for the police academy, im dropping weight to help in this by doing cardio on an empty stomach first thing in the morning (well after coffee for the caffeine) and i have dropped about 10-12 solid pounds now down to 21oish from 220 and while i have noticed some reduction in strength it hasnt been dramatic to the point where i feel ive lost a significant amount of muscle...id rather say that i look more then likely the best i have yet....in any event karma to you bro for researching the matter

 

[axe3]

Everything you need to know about fasted cardio:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=835725

great link azul

 

[phatrr]

FWIW, one of the best local trainers who has guided some national level champions adheres to the "small protein meal before AM cardio" theory. He told me that 15-20g of protein just prior to morning cardio is ideal, and as long as you adhere to the "moderate" dictum (50-60% of V02 max), you won't use glucose as a fuel. That seems to be in agreement with the roundtable Azul linked to.

 

[GUESS]

Everything you need to know about fasted cardio:

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=835725

Excellent Link bro! That's probably the best I've ever heard it put, I guess the bottom line is, what your goals are and what body type you are.

Thanks and K to you!

GUESS

 

[Makavelli]

FWIW, one of the best local trainers who has guided some national level champions adheres to the "small protein meal before AM cardio" theory. He told me that 15-20g of protein just prior to morning cardio is ideal, and as long as you adhere to the "moderate" dictum (50-60% of V02 max), you won't use glucose as a fuel. That seems to be in agreement with the roundtable Azul linked to.

I disagree with that. It depends on the type of protein that you eat, but most will take in whey. Whey is quickly absorbed. In the absence of other nutrients it will be metabolized into glucose and used for energy. Keep in mind that the whole point of doing A.M. cardio on an EMPTY stomach is to force your body to use it's own fat as fuel. Why would you give your body something else to use? It doesn't make any sense. I also know some very well known "gurus" that have their clients do the small protein shake before morning cardio. If you look at it logically from a physiological standpoint, it just doesn't make any sense. If someone can convince me with facts, then I'm all ears.

 

[view]

I disagree with that. It depends on the type of protein that you eat, but most will take in whey. Whey is quickly absorbed. In the absence of other nutrients it will be metabolized into glucose and used for energy. Keep in mind that the whole point of doing A.M. cardio on an EMPTY stomach is to force your body to use it's own fat as fuel. Why would you give your body something else to use? It doesn't make any sense. I also know some very well known "gurus" that have their clients do the small protein shake before morning cardio. If you look at it logically from a physiological standpoint, it just doesn't make any sense. If someone can convince me with facts, then I'm all ears.

it makes sense that the body will use fat in the AM for fuel, but where does using amino acids (like burning muscle) fit into this equation?

 

[Makavelli]

it makes sense that the body will use fat in the AM for fuel, but where does using amino acids (like burning muscle) fit into this equation?

I don't follow what you mean. Do you mean how does your body burn muscle while doing cardio? Or how will you burn muscle by eating protein before doing cardio?

 

[view]

I don't follow what you mean. Do you mean how does your body burn muscle while doing cardio? Or how will you burn muscle by eating protein before doing cardio?

Um. Like can't the body convert the amino acids that muscles are made up of and burn them for energy?

 

[boops]

people have been doing the AM cardio thing for decades and have had success...for the military people think of basic, what do they do there AM cardio on an empty stomach and most people come out of basic in the best shape of their lives (minus the marines who have to do the crucible and lose some muscle mass)....

 

[RaoulDuke..]

it's good to have a few carbs (about 10g) in your stomach to get the liver going...you need glucose fragments for the kreb's cycle to burn bodyfat.

 

[axe3]

Mak:

One of the "gurus" states that taking 20g of protein in the morning to prevent muscle wasting from cardio is important. I have always done it on an empty stomoch. How much glucose would 20 g of whey convert into? On the surface it seems to make sense but if it converts into a boatload then it would be a waste of time

thanks

 

[phatrr]

I disagree with that. It depends on the type of protein that you eat, but most will take in whey. Whey is quickly absorbed. In the absence of other nutrients it will be metabolized into glucose and used for energy. Keep in mind that the whole point of doing A.M. cardio on an EMPTY stomach is to force your body to use it's own fat as fuel. Why would you give your body something else to use? It doesn't make any sense. I also know some very well known "gurus" that have their clients do the small protein shake before morning cardio. If you look at it logically from a physiological standpoint, it just doesn't make any sense. If someone can convince me with facts, then I'm all ears.

NB: I'm probably not qualified to argue this, but wtf I'll give it a shot at a "layman's level".

As long as you stay <60% VO2 Max, you won't use glycogen in the muscles as the primary energy source. Your cardio will be fueled by fat, and the level of free fatty acids should be higher in the morning - already mobilized from the sleep cycle, and available.

If you ingest a small amount of protein, it will have little impact on the fueling cycle for the cardio workout. Your body is still going to use FFA's as the primary energy source for the low/moderate effort workload.

The advantages of ingesting the protein: prevention of any muscle tissue catabolic state - we still want to hang onto the muscle, not just burn fat. Additionally, you're activating another metabolic process in the body, and keeping the metabolism primed is key as well.

If, by cardio, you mean "intense" cardio at greater than 60% VO2 max (ie, hard breathing, sweat pouring off you), then the body is already using glycogen to fuel the workout. There's no way around that. You might, post-workout, start to begin to burn more fat - but you've already adding to your training volume, compromised recovery from your primary activity (lifting), and set the body up for muscle tissue catabolism.

In this case, I can't see why adding a small amount of protein can do anything but help. The faster you replenish those glycogen stores, the faster the muscle recovers.

 

[swordfish151]

Very interesting thread...

 

[Iliketolift]

Well I have personally done both... And IMO whatever YOU think is the best, and you have that STUCK in your head, I think the placebo will help you more....???just a little suggestion : )

 

[Prizz]

If, by cardio, you mean "intense" cardio at greater than 60% VO2 max (ie, hard breathing, sweat pouring off you), then the body is already using glycogen to fuel the workout. There's no way around that. You might, post-workout, start to begin to burn more fat - but you've already adding to your training volume, compromised recovery from your primary activity (lifting), and set the body up for muscle tissue catabolism.

ok, but what about <60% VO2 max cardio after weight training? That shouldn't be catabolic to the muscles..... For Endo/Meso body types anyway....

rizz

 

[Makavelli]

NB: I'm probably not qualified to argue this, but wtf I'll give it a shot at a "layman's level".

As long as you stay <60% VO2 Max, you won't use glycogen in the muscles as the primary energy source. Your cardio will be fueled by fat, and the level of free fatty acids should be higher in the morning - already mobilized from the sleep cycle, and available.

If you ingest a small amount of protein, it will have little impact on the fueling cycle for the cardio workout. Your body is still going to use FFA's as the primary energy source for the low/moderate effort workload.

The advantages of ingesting the protein: prevention of any muscle tissue catabolic state - we still want to hang onto the muscle, not just burn fat. Additionally, you're activating another metabolic process in the body, and keeping the metabolism primed is key as well.

If, by cardio, you mean "intense" cardio at greater than 60% VO2 max (ie, hard breathing, sweat pouring off you), then the body is already using glycogen to fuel the workout. There's no way around that. You might, post-workout, start to begin to burn more fat - but you've already adding to your training volume, compromised recovery from your primary activity (lifting), and set the body up for muscle tissue catabolism.

In this case, I can't see why adding a small amount of protein can do anything but help. The faster you replenish those glycogen stores, the faster the muscle recovers.

I understand your point, however I think most on here are missing mine. The whole point of doing morning cardio on an empty stomach is to force your body to rely strictly on your own fat stores. By giving your body something else it will use that. Why would you want to reduce the amount of fat burned during cardio?

It is a well known fact that when blood glucose levels are very low, as in the morning before eating, the body is perfectly set up to use body fat as fuel. That's why ketosis works so well. But guess what? You can kick yourself out of ketosis by eating whey protein by itself or eating too much protein and not enough fat. Why? Because it will be converted to glucose. Granted, you will not be out for long, but long enough to feel like shit.

 

[swordfish151]

Mak, what did you think about the article Azul posted?

 

[kethnaab]

i'm 100% with Makavelli on this one.

I've been in the military for almost 15 years, and have had tons of occasion to see the drastically noticeable difference in bodyfat comp between units that do morning PT and units that do afternoon PT. MPs work various shifts, due to several deployments, I've had times where I've worked various shifts and it is damn near universal, that the units that do PT first thing upon waking before morning chow are the ones that have significantly lower bodyfat issues.

Now, I am also one of those guys who sets a shaker of ice and fruit punch Isopure in the pisser prior to bed so that when I wake up during the night to shake the lizard, I suck down the Isopure at the same time. This seems to allow me to burn blubber whilst still maintaining muscle mass.

What has worked for me (And quite a few others that I know) is to actually use ephedrine and caffeine immediately upon waking, sucking down a bunch of water, waiting 30 minutes or so, then doing your cardio.

yes, ephedrine makes your cardio session SUCK...but...you get your heartrate up RAPIDLY while barely having to work your body. therefore, you really don't work your muscles so much at all but still burn quite a bit of calories and it makes it "easier" (on the muscles, esp. the legs) to get into your 60% VO2-Max zone. You barely even have to work at it.

As for the cardio right after a workout, I'm 100% against it myself. I would rather break it up into a morning cardio session and an afternoon/evening weight session, so that right after my lifting I can do a PWO with isopure and sugar. I notice that if I do weights followed by cardio, I stagnate on both almost immediately.

Just my opinion, which is worth a grand total of about $0.02.

 

[dullboy]

'controversial'


...dullboy figured he'd add his part to the discussion.

 

[Makavelli]

Everyone has different opinions. I don't like how one of the guys contradicts himself here:

"When it comes to cardio, eating protein before the session will preserve muscle tissue without impacting on fat loss. While some of the protein will be "burned off" as energy, the amount of muscle saved will more than make up for any minor alterations in fat calorie expenditure. Low-Carb Grow! is the perfect protein for this, because its slow entry into the blood limits the amount of amino acids that'll be used for energy (i.e. oxidized)."

"As for the other macronutrients, it's fine to be fasted as long as you're strictly going for fat loss. Understand that at first you'll feel the energy depravation, and may even want to prematurely cut your cardio short. If this occurs, then using something like Spike or especially HOT-ROX will not only enhance energy levels, but directly increase fat loss."

So he's saying on one hand that you have to consume protein to prevent catabolism, but at the same time eat a protein that's slowly absorbed so that it's not oxidized for energy, i.e. gluconeogenesis, or the conversion of protein to glucose. So which one is it? If you eat a slow protein then it won't be able to save the muscle tissue because it enters too slow. If you eat a fast acting protein then it will be converted to glucose and used for energy. What do you do? You see my point? It's obvious that during cardio for fat loss, it should be done on an empty stomach, and at a slow pace. That way you won't need glucose for energy.

 

[swordfish151]

I agree Mak, seemed like all the guys were doing on that article was "pushing" there products...anyway, i know that for me cardio on an empty tank works best..I HAVE tried to do a shake before and it just made me sluggish...

 

[azul]

I agree Mak, seemed like all the guys were doing on that article was "pushing" there products...anyway, i know that for me cardio on an empty tank works best..I HAVE tried to do a shake before and it just made me sluggish...

None of the people in the article (other than Chris Shugart) work for Biotest directly.

 

[phatrr]

I understand your point, however I think most on here are missing mine. The whole point of doing morning cardio on an empty stomach is to force your body to rely strictly on your own fat stores. By giving your body something else it will use that. Why would you want to reduce the amount of fat burned during cardio?

It is a well known fact that when blood glucose levels are very low, as in the morning before eating, the body is perfectly set up to use body fat as fuel. That's why ketosis works so well. But guess what? You can kick yourself out of ketosis by eating whey protein by itself or eating too much protein and not enough fat. Why? Because it will be converted to glucose. Granted, you will not be out for long, but long enough to feel like shit.

I'm definitely just trying to think this through, and I appreciate your patient explanations.

I'm still confused: if cardio < 60% of VO2 max burns is fueled by fat, then even if I spike my blood sugar levels, how am I going to change the metabolic pathway fueling the cardio?

I see what you're saying re: ketosis, and I agree. If you're going through a cutting cycle and putting yourself into ketosis, then sure, you don't want to interfere with that.

But if you don't want to enter ketosis, then does it matter? Won't low/moderate intensity cardio still burn be fueled by fat?

Once again, thanks for helping me to think this through.

 

[Makavelli]

I'm definitely just trying to think this through, and I appreciate your patient explanations.

I'm still confused: if cardio < 60% of VO2 max burns is fueled by fat, then even if I spike my blood sugar levels, how am I going to change the metabolic pathway fueling the cardio?

I see what you're saying re: ketosis, and I agree. If you're going through a cutting cycle and putting yourself into ketosis, then sure, you don't want to interfere with that.

But if you don't want to enter ketosis, then does it matter? Won't low/moderate intensity cardio still burn be fueled by fat?

Once again, thanks for helping me to think this through.

No prob brotha. It's a physiological fact that when insulin levels are elevated, as they are when you consume carbs or when protein is coverted to glucose, you cannot access bodyfat. Therefore you are shutting down the body's ability to burn fat. So even if you are under 60%, but raise your blood sugar level, your body will still burn the glucose first.

 

[Joe Stenson]

You always burn a mixture of fat and carbs during cardio. The higher % of VO2 max means you'll burn more carbs, but not solely carbs.

IMO the answer to the question lies in having your small shake right before the cardio (ie. within 10 minutes of starting). The absorption/digestion process won't have had long enough to get going.

 

[Makavelli]

You always burn a mixture of fat and carbs during cardio. The higher % of VO2 max means you'll burn more carbs, but not solely carbs.

Yes, that's right. You will always burn a mixture, but when your glycogen levels are very low, as in a fasted state, you will burn mostly fat.

 

[Joe Stenson]

Yes, that's right. You will always burn a mixture, but when your glycogen levels are very low, as in a fasted state, you will burn mostly fat.

Liver glycogen might be depleted over night, but muscle glycogen? I don't think so (at least not to the extent that you're implying).

 

[Makavelli]

Liver glycogen might be depleted over night, but muscle glycogen? I don't think so (at least not to the extent that you're implying).

I'm assuming we are talking about someone that is dieting. Obviously if someone is bulking then they're glycogen stores will be full or close to it. A person dieting will not have full glycogen stores and most likely will be severly depleted.

 

[Joe Stenson]

I'm assuming we are talking about someone that is dieting. Obviously if someone is bulking then they're glycogen stores will be full or close to it. A person dieting will not have full glycogen stores and most likely will be severly depleted.

Fair enough, although I think it was important for that to be pointed out for guys reading this thread. You can do cardio when bulking too, and not all diets are low carb so things like this need to be stated, not assumed.

 

[Makavelli]

Fair enough, although I think it was important for that to be pointed out for guys reading this thread. You can do cardio when bulking too, and not all diets are low carb so things like this need to be stated, not assumed.

The whole point of the thread was "Is empty stomach cardio best for fat loss?". I thought it was pretty apparent that we weren't talking about cardiovascular fitness. Anyway even when eating a mod card diet, while in a caloric deficit one's glycogen stores will not be full. Low carb or not. Otherwise the body would have no need to go into the fat stores. It would have enough glycogen to burn in the muscles.

 

[Joe Stenson]

The whole point of the thread was "Is empty stomach cardio best for fat loss?".

It doesn't say that anywhere in the title of the thread or the original post. It's moot, so no point in arguing over semantics, but it's true nonetheless.

Anyway even when eating a mod card diet, while in a caloric deficit one's glycogen stores will not be full. Low carb or not. Otherwise the body would have no need to go into the fat stores. It would have enough glycogen to burn in the muscles.

There's a difference between glycogen stores being "empty" vs "not full". The whole theory of morning cardio (before eating) is most supported in the "empty" state...and unless you're on a hardcore diet that emphasizes extended periods of no carbs (most likely followed at some point by refeeds), as well as glycogen depletion training, you're unlikely to reach that "empty" state.

 

[kethnaab]

empty/full muscle glycogen is pretty irrelevant when discussing cardio, since very little muscular glycogen is used during lower intensity cardio.

liver glycogen, sure, and circulating blood sugar, sure, but for the most part, it's a hormonal thing. low intensity cardio when insulin levels are nice and low = better fat burning.

finding the best mixture of "muscle maintenance" and "blubber melt" will vary for bodytypes and within bodytypes as well.