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Clean and Press questions...

b fold the truth

b fold the truth

Elite Strongman
Platinum
Ok...I did a little shoulder routine for the first time in a long time. I haven't done clean and presses with a bar in a year or more...maybe a lot more. I had not done dbell shoulder presses in close to 3 years either...

Here is what I did in the gym tonight...I'll state my problems after my workout.

Clean and Press
135 x 5
185 x 5
225 x 1
255 x 1
275 x 1

Seated Dbell Presses
50's x 6
60's x 6
80's x 6
100's x 6

Close Grip Bench
135 x 3
225 x 3
315 x 3

My workout was not meant to me much more than a shoulder workout and a tricep feeder...have had a headache all day.

I had problems with the clean portion of the clean and press. The press was very easy but the clean wasn't fun. I could not get the bar to touch my shoulder/upper chest/clavicle at all. Couldn't get it within 2-3" of them. Poor flexibility in my wrists, elbows, shoulders, etc...????

I have very very long arms. I just measured from elbow to wrist and got 12". Elbow to pinky is 18". Could my long arms be part of the reason why I couldn't get the bar to touch? I couldn't rest the bar on my shoulders after the clean because it was being held by my delts still...so I had to hurry up and press.

I will take a video clip next week when I do them again...so that a few of the oly lifters can get a better visual of what my problem is.

Thanks

B True
 
Also...how wide of a grip do you normally take on a clean and press/jerk?

Thanks..

B True
 
still impressive poundages - like double mine :)


C+J I use slightly wider than shoulder width grip which lines up with the inner rings on OL bar.
 
My pinky finger was about 2" from the power rings...is that wide? I have really broad shoulders...

What about me not being able to touch the bar to my shoulders? I touched the dbells easily...but couldn't get the bar to find a resting spot...

B True
 
Well my thumbs sorta line up with outside of my shoulder, that feels right for me, that may differ for each person.

Your hands should come around the side of thighs when standing in the clean stance.


If your holding onto the bar and you have big biceps then that's why its not touching your upper chest/shoulders, when I do a power clean, the bar rests on my shoulders but is lightly cradle on my hand in a open fashion, then I just front squat down and then jerk the bar up in my palms

That's why OL don't do bench presses or arms much :)

you may need to work the wrist flexibility a bit and get the elbows up higher.

pic from T mag
182cpa1.jpg
 
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Sounds good. My arms are 19" or slightly better...cold. I hands were closed...I may try them slighly open though...to see if it makes a difference.

Wrist flexibility it is...gotta start doing stuff to get it more flexible. Just work on stretching it in every direction???

I do need to get my elbows up higher...but it made my press feel strange.

Do you press with your elbows out or tucked in?

B True
 
I normally stretch out my wrists before I start doing any OL.

you can use a light barbell and hold the wrist in the same position to stretch em out . Just need to pull your fingers back towards the wrist.

well my elbows don't go that far up, but what you may have to do is rotate your elbows down, grab the bar when bend your legs before your fire up bar. My elbows stay pretty much straight head

If you problems front squatting then maybe you shouldn't be cleaning until you can :)
 
In addition to working on your wrist flexibility, their is also the issue of flexibility in the elbows (mainly the tricpes) and the shoulders, particularly the posterior deltoids and traps 1&2.

You can increase your flexibility specifically by simply having Nightfly push up on your elbows when you have a moderately heavy weight racked as well as you can. You are probably too nice to say anything that will really piss her off beforehand, but if you do, she may really be able to help you increase your ROM.

Also, the most critical portion of racking the clean properly is the speed of the elbow whip. It is very important to pull the elbows out to the side, which allows the bar to be pulled higher than if they are not, which makes you pull the bar back into you, and with a log this would be disasterous. The higher you pull it, the more time you have to whip the elbows, as well as the less pressure on your shoulders while you are doing so.

When pressing, drop the elbows under the bar, getting the forearm as close to vertical as possible. You generally have to lean back a little bit, mostly with the neck, to get the head out of the way. As soon as the bar passes the head, push your head forward, allowing the traps to spread out further, and the scapulae to retract, further engaging the rhomboids.

I have a thread on the clean on the pl board, entitled Cleans for Cubanito.
 
Great video clip...

Thanks guys...I'll video myself doing these this weekend and post it.

B True
 
That is a good clip. Do not see too many athletes executing push jerks anymore.

Patera was a monster at this exercise. 540 pounds.
 
It shall be fun with a 2" thick non-revolving bar too...

B True
 
Does it have to be a strict press, or can you dip and drive, turning it into a push press?

Better yet, can you turn it into a jerk?
 
It just has to go from shoulders to lockout...I jerk it.

B True
 
Can you split really deeply under it? If so, and you can manage a decent split, it should really help.

Assuming, of course, you do not crack yourself in the chin.
 
I find that with the split technique...it takes away from your time. It is most reps in 60 seconds...so the split would not be time efficient. It might come in handy on the last rep or two....when I am really struggling.

B True
 
JOKER47 said:


Arioch/b fold the truth,
For overall upper body strength and power, do you think performing these would be more effective than strict BB military presses?

Thanks,
Joker
Click to expand...

Yes...especially once proper technique is found...

B True
 
ive been wanting to do these for weeks now. i think im finally gonna give it a whirl in a couple days.

for those who care, which should you big strong fellas ... i forget the dudes name, but i saw a clip of him cleaning and pressing 600+ pounds. like it was cake. it was insane. ill be lucky if i can do 135 ... hopefully ...
 
gettinlarger said:
ive been wanting to do these for weeks now. i think im finally gonna give it a whirl in a couple days.

for those who care, which should you big strong fellas ... i forget the dudes name, but i saw a clip of him cleaning and pressing 600+ pounds. like it was cake. it was insane. ill be lucky if i can do 135 ... hopefully ...
Click to expand...

135 shouldnt be a problem. learn every component to the movement first. break it down into all parts and practice them. that way you ensure that its technique you are using and not just muscling it up there. dont get me wrong, it takes muscle but you want the right ones working.

hips and glutes driving the bar from the low position, not lower back. traps continuing the drive up with arms/shoulders following for the second pull. play with grip width (as bfold found) so you can make the catch in the right spot and dont get any surprises.

i have been over the past couple weeks just working on doing RDL shrugs just to make sure i was using my hips instead of my back. i have nice bruises on my quads from contact with the bar. high pulls and RDL shrugs should be the first step you master. the catch and front squat being the finishing touches.

there was an excellent article in the NSCA journal last month on obstacles in learning/teaching the hang clean. ive dissected it and found others on the net to help me.

technically, im my own guinea pig right now. i probably will never teach a full clean to someone but the RDL (done properly) and possibly a shrug or even high pull for a coordinated client. i need to go to a clinic or 2 on OL style lifts sometime in the near future. but for now...nose in the books and practice in the gym.

sigh.... :D
 
there was an excellent article in the NSCA journal last month on obstacles in learning/teaching the hang clean. ive dissected it and found others on the net to help me.
Click to expand...

Pretty good, except it follows the current USAW club coaching model, which sucks. And the pictures were horrible. The bar should never be as far out in front of you as it is in those photos.

All of the numbers based on the Soviet program can be found in this thread:

http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=112181&highlight=cleans+for+cubanito

And rack of the clean is of the utmost importance. Do not wait to start learning it. The speed of the elbow whip is critical, and it takes a long time to learn to do properly, even though the basics can be learned rather quickly.
 
for those who care, which should you big strong fellas ... i forget the dudes name, but i saw a clip of him cleaning and pressing 600+ pounds. like it was cake.
Click to expand...

That would be impressive, as I am still waiting for someone to clean and jerk it. Along with the rest of the world.

And for overall strength, I would perform both the press and the jerk. The jerk will give you much greater results wrt explosive power (output from superior jerks being rated at over 7000 watts). However, a certain amount of strength is required, and this can only be developed by heavy pressing.
 
I was goofing around in the Dungeon a couple weeks ago, and having been inspired by a B-fold thread, I tried doing clean and jerks. Arioch would not have called them clean and jerks. He would have called them a very ugly reverse curl followed by a front military press.

I worked up to a whopping 185 lbs, and found that the cleaning part was far more difficult than the pressing part, and I was just standing and pressing it. No split jerk, or any type of technique at all.

I did find, though, that I cannot properly rack the bar. I cannot get the bar to the position where the young lady in the video started and stopped her push press. I have a pretty thick build, with short thick arms, and a big chest and upper back, and cannot for the life of me, get to that position. I ended up supporting the bar in my hands with arm tension the whole time.

I am sure that the above, along with my general whimpiness, attributed to my poor performance. Long story short, nobody is calling me to head up to the olympic training center.

B.
 
power clean and push press

http://138.9.1.58/athleticperformance/exercise videos/Olympic Lift Videos/pc pp.mpg

notice that she jumps? That's how you do it, its a hip move. You basicly jump with the bar and then flip it over. Most people I see doing it just manhandle and reverse curl the bar up.

You only really explode after the bar has clearerd the knees, otherwise your gonna have some bruised knees like I did when I started doing em - and bruised chest too :)
 
Last edited:
those vids cleared a few questions i had. excellent. i can clearly see the double knee bend now once the bar clears the knees.

arioch. yeah i see the bar being fairly far away, probably because his legs arent bent enough? if he had more bend in his knees it would keep the bar tracking closer and still keep the bar over the toes.
 
BTW, i just ordered "explosive lifting for sports" by harvey newton published by human kinetics. good reference for learning?:confused:
 
Arioch,

I have a question concerning the push press. In that clip the woman is bending down quite far. I experienced a lot more strength/explosiveness when I only bent my knees a few inches?

Normal? Or am I not doing it properly?

-Zulu
 
the more fast twitch fibres you have the less you tend to bend the knees. Short dip means a faster stretch reflex and if you have more fast fibres you can utilise the quicker stretch. Slow twitch people need more time and thus more knee bend to apply power.
 
Did you make this conjecture yourself? Seems unlikely...

I don't see how fast/slow twitch factors into biomechanics, elastic energy, etc...

-Zulu
 
WoW!!! Those videos are amazing!!!! Love them!!! Saved them!!!

I gotta get better.

Any suggestions as how to go about increasing my reps on the clean and jerk? One clean...lots of presses/jerks. As of next week I will have the following to train with.
Log (palms facing)
Olympic Bar
2" thick non rotating bar
Viking Press
Dbells

So much to work with...too many toys...lol

B True
 
well some of the tips I've read from Poliquin that may help for rep count

figure a rep goal to aim for a certain weight.

and then do as many sets to get that number. Over time try to reduce the number of sets it takes to get to that number, until you can do it in one set.

or start with a weight that can achieve that rep count and over time increase the weight while keeping that rep count.
 
I have a question concerning the push press. In that clip the woman is bending down quite far. I experienced a lot more strength/explosiveness when I only bent my knees a few inches?
Click to expand...

This is an individual thing. I go down a bit as well, but my reversal is very fast. I just need a little bit more time in free fall compared to others.

On the other hand, Chermerkin hardly dips at all, and his jerks look like they are shot out of a cannon. Almost no split.

arioch. yeah i see the bar being fairly far away, probably because his legs arent bent enough? if he had more bend in his knees it would keep the bar tracking closer and still keep the bar over the toes.
Click to expand...

Well, the bar should just plain be pulled in on the first pull, sometimes as much as 4 cm. The pull is an S-curve. While knee bend will affect this a bit, it is more of a hip angle problem in the pics. His torso is inclined to far, which will result in the bar being somewhat out of postion during the 4th phase.

And that book is OK. The best for the basic references, IMO, is the Training of the Weightlifter, by RA Roman. The best for theory is the Encylopedia by Dreschler.

You can get most of the good Russian texts from www.elitefts.com

I referenced a few of them in the Snatch sticky on the PL board.

The best way to learn the lifts is to actually find a coach.

Go to www.usaweightlifting.org

Go to About

Go to LWC

This will give you the location of a qualified coach near you.

The basics can be taught relatively quickly.

I also started a thread on the PL board entitled OL Basics that has some detail on basic beginning programs.
 
B-fold, checked out your videos while my network was crashing.

The only thing I can say, aside from the fact that I hope I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, never, ever have to do that, is that perhaps your feet could be closer, which will give you more drive on the push press. If you need to keep your feet that wide when manhandling it into a clean position, you could bring them in before starting your overhead reps.

That looks like it really hurts, and there is no way to properly rack it.

I have more respect for you every time I see one of your clips.
 
'
This is an individual thing. I go down a bit as well, but my reversal is very fast. I just need a little bit more time in free fall compared to others.

On the other hand, Chermerkin hardly dips at all, and his jerks look like they are shot out of a cannon. Almost no split. "

I'm not talking about the CJ tho...just the pushpress.

I only dip like 3 inches. I tried dipping like the first clip with that woman and got ZERO power.

BFold,

Is there a reason why your feet are angled outwards?

Also, this may be a very stupid question:

When you clean the log wouldn't it be easier to do it all in one continuous motion? Seems like you only get to use your upperbody...
 
Arioch said:


The best way to learn the lifts is to actually find a coach.

Go to www.usaweightlifting.org

Go to About

Go to LWC

This will give you the location of a qualified coach near you.

The basics can be taught relatively quickly.

I also started a thread on the PL board entitled OL Basics that has some detail on basic beginning programs.
Click to expand...

to be honest. i actually thought about going to the sports coach training in colorado in december. just for my own information. the price isnt bad, and i could be more immersed in the learning. i'll see how time permits later this year.

i read the snatch sticky on there. good stuff, not something you can read just once. excellent post.
 
I only dip like 3 inches. I tried dipping like the first clip with that woman and got ZERO power.
Click to expand...

Principle is the same. Some people just do not need to dip that much.

to be honest. i actually thought about going to the sports coach training in colorado in december. just for my own information. the price isnt bad, and i could be more immersed in the learning. i'll see how time permits later this year.
Click to expand...

That is a pretty good idea.

i read the snatch sticky on there. good stuff, not something you can read just once. excellent post.
Click to expand...

Glad you like it. Plan on re-working the clean and jerk post after I accomplish 10,000 other things.
 
Arioch said:
B-fold, checked out your videos while my network was crashing.

The only thing I can say, aside from the fact that I hope I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, never, ever have to do that, is that perhaps your feet could be closer, which will give you more drive on the push press. If you need to keep your feet that wide when manhandling it into a clean position, you could bring them in before starting your overhead reps.

That looks like it really hurts, and there is no way to properly rack it.

I have more respect for you every time I see one of your clips.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the respect...not sure it is warranted...but thank you.

Most people can press whatever they can clean. A wide stance for the clean is pretty much a must. I have tried to change it (too close to a contest) and I tend to be weaker. I can get more of a leg dip with my legs farther apart. Remember that the log sets way out in front of you when pressing...so you have to lean back a bit more..a wider stance feels better.

NOW is the time to change things. Now is the time to work with trial and error...5 weeks out I need to be ready with the style I am gonna use come contest day.

B True
 
ZZuluZ said:
'
BFold,

Is there a reason why your feet are angled outwards?

Also, this may be a very stupid question:

When you clean the log wouldn't it be easier to do it all in one continuous motion? Seems like you only get to use your upperbody...
Click to expand...

I have tried with my feet straight ahead and it just hasn't worked out well for me. With a regular bar it does...but not with a log. I will work on it for a few weeks and see how it feels.

It is MUCH more difficult to do a full clean with the log than what I do. What I do is called a continental clean (or a semi-contental clean). With your hands facing, it is nearly impossible to do a full clean with it. Most guys let their belt make a loop in front of them that they use to help get the log up to their shoulders...some contests don't allow it.

I can't think of the guy's name, he is from Alabama I think and tried to qualify for the WSM to represent America one year. This guy was an Olympic Lifter (an Elite OL'er). The first event was the log clean and press for a max weight. He tried to do a regular clean and could not land it. He could press it...but could not clean it.

B True
 
just an update....did some cleans tonight. yaaay! hang cleans to be more specific. sets of 5. did 135 because i was working on racking the bar and also getting under it. its such a weird movement. if you miss one part of it, it gets heavy but if you tie all the movements together, its like butter. sometimes i would forget to shrug up so high and i would really have to dip to catch it. but if i got good hip drive about mid thigh and a tall shrug, i would catch almost upright.

as for being able to press what someone cleans....not me. i know i can clean more but i could never get it overhead. go figure. but push presses are for me in the near future. training partner is going in for hernia repair. hehehe. i get to train "eclectic" for a bit while he heals. powershrugs, cleans, push presses, learn my bench better. low bar squats. fun fun. all in my evil plan to take myself to another level. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

lol...alright im done. :p
 
Heck yeah bignate...you've got me all fired up!!!! I've gotta start perfecting my clean and presses.

It is very hard to clean a log because of the thickness of it as well as the hand position (close and palms facing). The clean really sucks sometimes....

B True
 
I didn't like that gym too much. They didn't allow gym bags on the gym floor...or drinks either. They had tons of machines that I had no idea how they worked.

My last day there, after I finished my workout, I walked around and tried out most every machine they had...some funny feeling equipment for sure...lol...

B True
 
ZZuluZ said:
Did you make this conjecture yourself? Seems unlikely...

I don't see how fast/slow twitch factors into biomechanics, elastic energy, etc...

-Zulu
Click to expand...

I read some reasearch papers on this.
 
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